MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[HopeConvert]

Hope might win one game in the post season but it is doubtful they will win two.  And, the next day, will no longer have any significance.  The same would be true of Calvin or any other MIAA team.  A championship would be the trump card and provide some signicance for the school and the league.

I am a partisan Calvin fan and it isn't going to change.

Good grief! "Will no longer have any significance?" Only a championship banner will "provide some signicance [sic] for the school"? What are we talking about here? This is basketball, for crying out loud. Obviously Hope will be the decided underdog in every game they play, but the significance of any sport is like conversation (to quote Michael Oakeshott): It's not in the winning or the losing, it's in the wagering. As long as you are still in the game, it has significance, but not really any importance. What's the significance of this for anyone come March 21? What will be memorable for the players and the fans of these teams is that the Calvin players and fans can take pride in having beat Hope twice and winning the league, and the Hope players and fans take pride in winning the tournament. In the end, it's important to us because we know it doesn't really matter. That's what makes sports grand.

I could go on my screed here about national tournaments, of which I am not a big fan. But that's another story.

OK: read Wiz's last sentence. At least he still has the "P" in TULIP going.

[oldknight]

OK: read Wiz's last sentence. At least he still has the "P" in TULIP going.

A one point Calvinist?

[GoKnights68]

Although it has settled down this afternoon and evening, I think Calvin fans just need to refrain from bringing up the whole "banner" thing for now.  After Calvin lost Saturday, I don't think any Hope fan on here was saying "Haha (in a Nelson Muntz way), your season is over," so it just isn't necessary to constantly be bringing it up at this time.

Although Calvin fans didn't obviously like the way the season ended, Calvin had a good season with winning the conference outright, so there is no reason to just be happy with that for now as that is very good accomplishment.

Just because Hope has never won "the big one," they have put together some damn good teams over the years, including last years' team who cut down three seperate nets.  With over 400 teams in division 3, it is harder than most people think to win a national title.  Just getting to the final four is an impressive accomplishment.

Although I don't think Hope will get past the second round after seeing the brackets, I don't think many teams in the country would if they had to play the teams in that regional.

[GoKnights68]

Hope might win one game in the post season but it is doubtful they will win two.  And, the next day, will no longer have any significance.  The same would be true of Calvin or any other MIAA team.  A championship would be the trump card and provide some signicance for the school and the league.

I am a partisan Calvin fan and it isn't going to change.

Good grief! "Will no longer have any significance?" Only a championship banner will "provide some signicance [sic] for the school"? What are we talking about here? This is basketball, for crying out loud. Obviously Hope will be the decided underdog in every game they play, but the significance of any sport is like conversation (to quote Michael Oakeshott): It's not in the winning or the losing, it's in the wagering. As long as you are still in the game, it has significance, but not really any importance. What's the significance of this for anyone come March 21? What will be memorable for the players and the fans of these teams is that the Calvin players and fans can take pride in having beat Hope twice and winning the league, and the Hope players and fans take pride in winning the tournament. In the end, it's important to us because we know it doesn't really matter. That's what makes sports grand.

I could go on my screed here about national tournaments, of which I am not a big fan. But that's another story.

OK: read Wiz's last sentence. At least he still has the "P" in TULIP going.

Good post, HopeConvert.  I feel the same way about everything you said.

[sac]

The '05 Albion team was an Elite Eight team (knocked out by MIAA Calvin).  Not too shabby there for the Brits.

Again, though, that's only a pebble dropped in the very big Hope/Calvin pond that is the MIAA's postseason legacy.

How many other conferences can boast 3 separate Elite Eight schools and 2 Final Four schools in the past 5 years?

Just in the four years 05-08, elite 8 teams...

MIAA
Calvin 05
Albion 05
Hope 07
Hope 08

UAA
Rochester 05
Washington 07
Washington 08
Brandeis 08

NESCAC
Amherst 06
Amherst 07
Amherst 08

ODAC
Va. Wesleyan 06
Va. Wesleyan 07
Guilford 07

There are two glaring conferences missing, the CCIW and WIAC.

The CCIW's Champion has not made an elite 8 in this time frame, IWU made it in 06 but Augustana won the CCIW.  Wheaton made it last year, Augustana won the CCIW.  

The WIAC hasn't had an elite 8 team since Stevens Point in 2005, thats seems utterly impossible to believe.

A couple other conferences have 2 appearances, SUNYAC, NCAC, and SCAC

Also of those 4 conferences, the MIAA is the only one without a Championship in these four years.

Also interesting, I'm not sure any of these 4 conferences have a favorite to make the elite 8 this year.........maybe Middlebury and Amherst.  Washington and Hope have tough roads.

[sac]

Also I find it interesting that after spending most of the 1980's exiting the NCAA tournaments early, never advancing past the first weekend except once.........Hope and Calvin have figured this NCAA stuff out.

[pedro12]

just a follow up to hope convert's post.

Today the guys on these teams care about these games.  they don't care about them for banners or rings or trophies.  they care about it for a few more practices, and one more game doing what they love to do.  They care about getting one more chance to beat the man in front of them.  They care about one more chance for the sound, smell, and feel of a game.  Above all they care about the chance to take the floor one more time with their team.  The people that they have spent months with for one common purpose, and they would do anything for.  Because when its over its over, and these teams will never exist again exactly as they do today.

[Civic Minded]

just a follow up to hope convert's post.

Today the guys on these teams care about these games.  they don't care about them for banners or rings or trophies.  they care about it for a few more practices, and one more game doing what they love to do.  They care about getting one more chance to beat the man in front of them.  They care about one more chance for the sound, smell, and feel of a game.  Above all they care about the chance to take the floor one more time with their team.  The people that they have spent months with for one common purpose, and they would do anything for.  Because when its over its over, and these teams will never exist again exactly as they do today.

Beautifully said, pedro12.  Exactly.

And that's really why Hope fans really, honestly, don't care about how many banners Calvin has.  Seriously, folks,  a couple of friends and I had tears of laughter running down our faces today as a few of you go on and on about banners and even go so far as to compare them to the significance of human beings (well, that was a little sad).  If you really believe that we care, you're, well, pitiable, I guess.  But hey, as long as you keep beating that moth eaten drum, then we are exempt from other attacks that might actually mean something.        Whatever.  We do kinda think you're silly for putting so much value in a couple of old honors.  They were great achievements, no doubt, but your having them doesn't get under our skin.  I don't expect you to understand, because if you could, this wouldn't keep coming up as if you were saying "your momma wears army boots" expecting us to crawl in a corner and whimper.   

GO HOPE!  Have fun, and stop and notice and enjoy every detail.  This moment is yours.

[AlwaysHope]

If my math is correct. Jesse Reimink will go into Friday's game with 533 career rebounds. This puts him 5th all-time in the MIAA, behind Willie Dawkins of Alma (551) but well ahead of Craig Vossekuil of Kalamazoo (441). He is still far behind Floyd Brady's all-time Hope (and league) record of 648.  Jesse, Travis DePree, and Jeremy Veenstra are the only players of this decade in the top ten. He is Hope's 27th league MVP, 6 ahead of Calvin.

Those rebounding records from years ago are something........of all the MIAA records I doubt anyone will come very close to breaking those.

REBOUNDING Number
1. Floyd Brady, Hope, 64-68 648
2. Mark Veenstra, Calvin, 70-74 615
3. Gordon Lofts, Olivet, 64-68 603
4. Willie Dawkins, Alma, 70-74 551
5. Craig Vossekuil, Kazoo, 66-70 441
6. Kevin York, Kalamazoo, 73-77 412
7. Travis DePree, Albion, 01-05     397
8. David Dame, Kalamazoo, 75-76     389
9. Jeremy Veenstra, Calvin, 99-03 373
10. Curtis Williams, Adrian, 75-79 371
10. Aaron Winkle, Calvin, 96-00 371


Floyd Brady's avg for 48 games would be 13.5 which is great...........but I don't think Floyd played his Freshmen year so I'm not sure thats correct.  It may be 18 per game over 3 years which is just awesome.

But to avg 13.5 over 4 years with a 14 game schedule now would be 756 rebounds.

I just don't think thats going to happen anytime soon, not the way today's game is played with multiple substitutions and so many gaurds being taught to hit the boards.  (Krombenn, D. Smith are great examples)

Michael McClary, Olivet has 266 league rebounds in two years, he's not going to break the record but he has a strong shot at the top 5.

John Mantel, Calvin has 250 league rebounds in 3 years, he's probably going to finish pretty close to Jeremy Veenstra's number.

Mr. Brady was a four year varsity performer at Hope. He scored 24 as a freshmen during Hope's 104-102 double overtime win at the Civic Center. Sac may never have seen Hope win at the buzzer but I did--actually several minutes after the buzzer--when another freshmen, Don Kronemeyer, hit two unjustifiably awarded free throws at the Civic Center. Not that I'm bitter about it. I watched it on TV, the first televised Calvin/Hope game I ever saw. It was also the first (and only) time I ever actually shed tears over an athletic event. But hey, I was only eleven at the time so give me a break.

As for rebounding records, when Bill DeHorn was a freshmen for the Knights he snared 205 rebounds for the season in just 12 games. He went to Wake Forest the following year, Taylor University the next, and then returned to Calvin to close out his gypsy college career.

BTW, Mark Veenstra and Willie Dawkins both played between 73-77, not 70-74 as you mention. Dawkins was one of the most impressive basketball athletes ever in the MIAA. He was usually listed 6'3" or 6'4" but that was only if you counted the 'fro he sported. He was a muscular 6'2". I was speaking this year to a Calvin hoopster and a competitor of Willie who assured me that Dawkins could actually touch the rim with his hair. Even granting him two inches of 'fro, that's amazing.

Sorry OK, but I have to take exception to your remark about Kronemeyer being rewarded his "unjustifiably" free throws.

I was at that game, and you have to appreciate what preceeded the free throws.  Calvin was at the free throw line with 15 (?) seconds left in the game with a two point lead.  The free throw shooter made the first of a one and one, giving Calvin a two possession lead (no 3 point shot then) with one free throw to go.  But the free throw was waived off and the point taken off the board because he had his toe on the line!  Hope then gets the ball, and Carl Walters then scores to tie the game with 9 seconds left.  Calvin then gets the last shot, but the ball clanks off the rim.

Kronemeyer gets the rebound just before the buzzer, and the Calvin player was ruled by the official to foul him after Don had clear possession.  It was not an over the back call or a call fighting for a rebound.  I saw that call and agreed with it, although others may consider my objectivity questionable!

Having said that, I must admit that the call probably would not be made today.  Fouls were called much closer in that era.  But the bigger question is why even touch a player who gets a defensive rebound when he is the length of the court away from scoring with no time on the clock.  To me it was the second mental mistake made in the closing seconds of the game:  first having your toe on the line, and then fouling a player that cannot shoot the ball.  Could it have been a frustration foul?  I think it was the same player (Campbell) who had his toe on the line, missed the shot just before the buzzer, and then fouled Kronemeyer.

After the refs reviewed the play and a few minutes had elapsed, the Hope freshman goes to the line (shooting one and one) with all the players at half court, makes the first free throw with no time on the clock and is mobbed by the Hope Nation fans.  The refs then restore order and Don make the second free throw maybe 10 minutes after the buzzer.  I remember hoping that he would have missed the second shot, just to give us a one point victory.  All this happened at the end of the second overtime, and the win ultimately gave Hope another MIAA Championship.

I will admit that in today's game it would have to have been a mugging to call a foul in that circumstance.  And tenths of a second would have been restored on the clock, because you can't foul someone with no time left on the clock, but that clock did not exist in 1965.

Regarding Brady's rebound records which occured in a 12 game conference season with no conference tournament, what is even more impressive is that he was only 6'3".  I recently confirmed that with Claire Van Wiren, Glenn's brother, who was 6'4" and played with Brady for two years, plus 6'3" is what Brady was listed at.  

One final comment.  DeHorn's total of 205 rebounds in 1965-6 is incredible, but it  tied the MIAA record set the previous year by Bill Pendell of Alma.

[sac]

A few weeks ago the Williams/Amherst posters scoffed at the idea Hope/Calvin is a bigger rivalry.

AlwaysHope and Oldknight are talking about a game from 45 years ago.

[oldknight]

Sorry OK, but I have to take exception to your remark about Kronemeyer being rewarded his "unjustifiably" free throws.

"Never complain; never explain."  When it comes to this board, I normallly try and abide by this phrase--attributed to Henry Ford II who actually knew how to run an auto manufacturer successfully--because repeated explanations dilute them. In this case I'll make an exception.

I didn't use the tongue-in-cheek emoticon Pat provides us because I've written about this game several times. Regular readers know that I typically talk about that foul at the end of the second overtime as wrongly made and then add "Not that I'm bitter about it" as my way of demonstrating a tongue-in-cheek attitude about its final result--a Calvin loss that honestly no longer haunts me, nothwithstanding my childhood tears. The tapeworm died long ago. The fact of the matter is that the 1965 game was a truly great one to watch. If that game had happened this year, our board would have gone on for days over many pages describing all its twists and turns. And yes, it was Kim Campbell who was unjustifiably ruled as having stepped over the free throw with about 15 seconds left (one that would have sealed a Calvin win) and who also was whistled for a foul on Kronemeyer that led to the winning free throws.

And it was only 44 years ago.

[northb]

And that's really why Hope fans really, honestly, don't care about how many banners Calvin has.  Seriously, folks,  a couple of friends and I had tears of laughter running down our faces today as a few of you go on and on about banners and even go so far as to compare them to the significance of human beings (well, that was a little sad).  If you really believe that we care, you're, well, pitiable, I guess.  But hey, as long as you keep beating that moth eaten drum, then we are exempt from other attacks that might actually mean something.        Whatever.  We do kinda think you're silly for putting so much value in a couple of old honors.  They were great achievements, no doubt, but your having them doesn't get under our skin.  I don't expect you to understand, because if you could, this wouldn't keep coming up as if you were saying "your momma wears army boots" expecting us to crawl in a corner and whimper.   

GO HOPE!  Have fun, and stop and notice and enjoy every detail.  This moment is yours.

Hold on. let me check my wallet...
Hmmmmm
Nope.  Not buying it.

[wiz]

One final comment.  DeHorn's total of 205 rebounds in 1965-6 is incredible, but it  tied the MIAA record set the previous year by Bill Pendell of Alma.

Personally, I always thought DeHorn was a better talent than Brady.  The difference was that Brady kept his head and DeHorn didn't.  As a freshman out of Chicago Christian, the same city Brady came from, he "schooled" the senior Brady on the basketball court and was not intimidated.  Actually, the younger DeHorn stood 2 inches taller at 6'5", which was a big man in those days.  He joined a strong cast of characters with Fredricks, Douma, Campbell, Kass, Langland, Dykema, DeMots, Otte and others.

But Bill came unglued for a couple years and when he returned to Calvin for his senior year, under the new Knights coach, Don Vroon, who had replaced Barney Steen, he never fit comfortably back into the rotation.  A memory was when he returned for his first minutes of game time coming back to Calvin and he received the ball and immediately took off for a dunk.  Of course, he was assessed with a technical foul for that maneuver, as this was during the Lew Alcindor collegiate years at UCLA when the NCAA outlawed the dunk as some way to try to slow the superstar down.

While I haven't seen Bill in years, I understand today he resides in Canada and is still very physically fit and participates in ironman competitions.  And, if you think the pranks of today's college students are unique, you haven't heard anything if you didn't witness some of DeHorn's antics.

Intreresting personality but a career wasted.  He took great pride, however, in hauling (or mauling) down rebounds.  I think if he were playing today's schedules, he would have exceeded a 1,000 rebound career.  But that's all woulda, coulda, shoulda because it never came to pass.  Clearly, however, DeHorn was the best rebounder I ever saw in 40+ years of following the MIAA.

[Flea]

It's not every day you can hear the "where's your banners" chant two straight games.

Regardless of the "where's your..." chant . . . the best MIAA fan stunt ever is the fake banner the Hope students made and unfurled at the Civic (and I'm a Calvin fan)

[almcguirejr]

Gee, Wiz, I didn't know you had such a "historical perspective" on Calvin basketball.