MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Coach DeVette's involvement in Hope, sports, and the community were amazing, and an example to us all.  I've inserted several quotes from a Special Hope Sports Report honoring his life:

"As a member of the faculty he developed the college's physical education minor, and also served as the athletic director and chairperson of the department.  In 1986 he co-authored the book "Coaching Basketball:  The Complete Book from Beginning to Championship Play" with faculty colleague Dr. William Vanderbilt, a 1961 Hope graduate who as a student had played for DeVette."

"DeVette was named the Michigan NAIA Coach of the Year in basketball for 1956-57.  From 1975 to 1981, he was a member of the first basketball committee for the NCAA Division III, serving as the committee's chairperson during the last two years.  In 1989, he was inducted into the Muskegon Area Sports Hall of Fame. "

"DeVette was a member of the Holland City Council for three terms, from 1975 to 1987.  His community service through the years has also included coaching and mentoring the Ottawa Hustlers, a basketball team comprised of adults with learning disabilities; Meals on Wheels; Everegreen Day Health; teaching English as a second language with Community Education; The Bridge Store; and serving on the board of Camp Geneva.  He was a member of Christ Memorial Church of Holland"

And lastly, a nice posting from Alan Babbitt on Coach DeVette

http://blogs.hollandsentinel.com/alan/

[Knight In The Stan]

There is a good chance that I will be back in town on Christmas leave for the Calvin/AQ game on the 10th of December. I would enjoy meeting up with anyone who will be in the area. Let me know. First round is on almcguirejr

[realist]

Personally I expect Hope to match up very well with AQ, and it wouldn't surprise me to see Hope get the W.  AQ lost the big guy inside, and he caused both Hope and Calvin problems the last few years.  Other than number of games played I think Calvin and CU match reasonably well, and this game could be a barn burner.  If Calvin forces the action inside it causes problems for CU.  If they let CU dink around and get hot outside it could get ugly.  My prediction is Calvin/Hope I in the finals.  I bet the farm (which is in foreclosure) on this!!

[Gregory Sager]

The discussion about where D3 ranks with NAIA schools is an interesting one to me.  Having gone to college in the early 90's, it is really hard for me to admit that D3 ranks below NAIA D2 (ie. Cornerstone, Aquinas).  If Hope or Calvin had lost to Aquinas or Cornerstone (tecnically known as GR Baptist at the time) in those years it would have been a bigger upset than Calvin losing to Grace the other day.  There was no comparison in the quality of play or the depth of the rosters.  That being said, it's hard to really convince myself that it's the case anymore.  Hope and Calvin, in my opinion, have not been able to maintain the talent level that they had in the 90's (Calvin in the early 90's, Hope through the whole decade) and the style of play has made it even tougher to maintain the high level.  However, I don't think its just a Hope and Calvin issue.  The entire MIAA is way down from its level of 15/20 years ago.  I can recall Kalamazoo teams from 91, 92 and 96 that all would have been favored to win the MIAA if they were playing this year.  There are Albion teams of the past that you could probably say the same about and possibly Adrian as well.  Taking that a step further, I think NAIA D2 has taken a lot of kids around the midwest who traditionally would have gone D3.  The status of a scholarship is there , but also the allure of money is too great and maybe it's hard to argue with them with the cost of tuition at most D3 schools, but it is impossible to argue that it has caused the quality of D3 basketball to go down.   

As KnightSlappy pointed out, D3 teams triumph over NAIA-2 teams more often than not. The comparative year-to-year strength of the Cornerstone and Aquinas programs (as well as some of the nearby Indiana NAIA-2s such as Grace, Bethel, and Marian) may be deceptive in that regard for those southwestern Michiganders who are looking at the bigger picture.

I think that NAIA programs in general have had an impact in terms of luring potential D3 players away with scholarships, but the trend is uneven and I'm not sure that it's all that great. In Chicagoland, NAIA-2 programs have trouble competing in recruiting with even NAthC programs, let alone CCIW programs. (NAIA-1 programs such as St. Xavier and Olivet Nazarene are a different matter entirely, of course.)

The reality is that the six scholarships offered by NAIA-2 programs, when apportioned among an entire roster, are pretty seriously diluted. Plus, lots of NAIA programs don't offer the full allotment of scholarships per sport, and some don't even offer athletic scholarships at all. By contrast, D3 schools on average tend to have larger endowments, and, thus, they often have better financial aid packages than NAIA schools. D3 schools also tend more often than their NAIA competitors to be "establishment" schools, name-brand institutions of long standing that have solid academic reputations, while NAIA schools are more likely to be younger and less well-established academically. (These are broad generalizations with myriad exceptions, so please don't bother trying to list them.) These factors affect the recruiting process as well.

So I'm not sure that you can take the situation of Cornerstone and Aquinas and apply it on a national scale. As with everything else in intercollegiate sports, there is a vast spectrum out there in terms of the resources schools have and what they do with it.

[sac]

Manchester 80 Kzoo 45

Heidelberg 94 Albion 91 OT.........Albion had the lead for most of this one

Stasiak 29, Bridges 14, Farr 13, Hutton 11.......JC Cruse saw his first action of the season.

Trine 50 Blufton 46


MIAA now 6-16

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Nice article in the Sentinel about the HOF Tournament this weekend

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/sports/x441555244/Zeeland-native-Matt-Kingshott-eyes-title-at-GR-Hall-of-Fame-Basketball-Tournament

[Knightmare]

Nice article in the Sentinel about the HOF Tournament this weekend

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/sports/x441555244/Zeeland-native-Matt-Kingshott-eyes-title-at-GR-Hall-of-Fame-Basketball-Tournament

An interesting quote from GVW taken from above mentioned article.

GVW says, "This tournament is wide open this year. That means that anyone has a chance to win, but that means we have a chance to win."

I almost hope that this is a misquote because otherwise GVW has become way to good at the coach speak of saying something without really have said anything.    

As always, Go Calvin!!!

[thealmascots]

Greg,
I agree with basically everything you say here.  I really was not trying to say anything on a nationwide scale, as I don't see enough of teams outside of west Michigan or the MIAA to really have an educated opinion.  My comments were more geared at the MIAA in that in the past the Albion's, Kalamazoo's and Adrian's could provide quite strong competition but had very little to show for it because of Hope and Calvin.  In this decade those programs have really fallen off, but Hope and Calvin have dropped down proportionately with them.  I don't know how the NAIA D2's have affected the rest of the MIAA, but I think there have been plenty of players over the last ten years who have gone to Cornerstone and Aquinas who traditionally would have been at Hope or Calvin.

The discussion about where D3 ranks with NAIA schools is an interesting one to me.  Having gone to college in the early 90's, it is really hard for me to admit that D3 ranks below NAIA D2 (ie. Cornerstone, Aquinas).  If Hope or Calvin had lost to Aquinas or Cornerstone (tecnically known as GR Baptist at the time) in those years it would have been a bigger upset than Calvin losing to Grace the other day.  There was no comparison in the quality of play or the depth of the rosters.  That being said, it's hard to really convince myself that it's the case anymore.  Hope and Calvin, in my opinion, have not been able to maintain the talent level that they had in the 90's (Calvin in the early 90's, Hope through the whole decade) and the style of play has made it even tougher to maintain the high level.  However, I don't think its just a Hope and Calvin issue.  The entire MIAA is way down from its level of 15/20 years ago.  I can recall Kalamazoo teams from 91, 92 and 96 that all would have been favored to win the MIAA if they were playing this year.  There are Albion teams of the past that you could probably say the same about and possibly Adrian as well.  Taking that a step further, I think NAIA D2 has taken a lot of kids around the midwest who traditionally would have gone D3.  The status of a scholarship is there , but also the allure of money is too great and maybe it's hard to argue with them with the cost of tuition at most D3 schools, but it is impossible to argue that it has caused the quality of D3 basketball to go down.   

As KnightSlappy pointed out, D3 teams triumph over NAIA-2 teams more often than not. The comparative year-to-year strength of the Cornerstone and Aquinas programs (as well as some of the nearby Indiana NAIA-2s such as Grace, Bethel, and Marian) may be deceptive in that regard for those southwestern Michiganders who are looking at the bigger picture.

I think that NAIA programs in general have had an impact in terms of luring potential D3 players away with scholarships, but the trend is uneven and I'm not sure that it's all that great. In Chicagoland, NAIA-2 programs have trouble competing in recruiting with even NAthC programs, let alone CCIW programs. (NAIA-1 programs such as St. Xavier and Olivet Nazarene are a different matter entirely, of course.)

The reality is that the six scholarships offered by NAIA-2 programs, when apportioned among an entire roster, are pretty seriously diluted. Plus, lots of NAIA programs don't offer the full allotment of scholarships per sport, and some don't even offer athletic scholarships at all. By contrast, D3 schools on average tend to have larger endowments, and, thus, they often have better financial aid packages than NAIA schools. D3 schools also tend more often than their NAIA competitors to be "establishment" schools, name-brand institutions of long standing that have solid academic reputations, while NAIA schools are more likely to be younger and less well-established academically. (These are broad generalizations with myriad exceptions, so please don't bother trying to list them.) These factors affect the recruiting process as well.

So I'm not sure that you can take the situation of Cornerstone and Aquinas and apply it on a national scale. As with everything else in intercollegiate sports, there is a vast spectrum out there in terms of the resources schools have and what they do with it.

[RFMichigan]

Greg,
I agree with basically everything you say here.  I really was not trying to say anything on a nationwide scale, as I don't see enough of teams outside of west Michigan or the MIAA to really have an educated opinion.  My comments were more geared at the MIAA in that in the past the Albion's, Kalamazoo's and Adrian's could provide quite strong competition but had very little to show for it because of Hope and Calvin.  In this decade those programs have really fallen off, but Hope and Calvin have dropped down proportionately with them.  I don't know how the NAIA D2's have affected the rest of the MIAA, but I think there have been plenty of players over the last ten years who have gone to Cornerstone and Aquinas who traditionally would have been at Hope or Calvin.

The discussion about where D3 ranks with NAIA schools is an interesting one to me.  Having gone to college in the early 90's, it is really hard for me to admit that D3 ranks below NAIA D2 (ie. Cornerstone, Aquinas).  If Hope or Calvin had lost to Aquinas or Cornerstone (tecnically known as GR Baptist at the time) in those years it would have been a bigger upset than Calvin losing to Grace the other day.  There was no comparison in the quality of play or the depth of the rosters.  That being said, it's hard to really convince myself that it's the case anymore.  Hope and Calvin, in my opinion, have not been able to maintain the talent level that they had in the 90's (Calvin in the early 90's, Hope through the whole decade) and the style of play has made it even tougher to maintain the high level.  However, I don't think its just a Hope and Calvin issue.  The entire MIAA is way down from its level of 15/20 years ago.  I can recall Kalamazoo teams from 91, 92 and 96 that all would have been favored to win the MIAA if they were playing this year.  There are Albion teams of the past that you could probably say the same about and possibly Adrian as well.  Taking that a step further, I think NAIA D2 has taken a lot of kids around the midwest who traditionally would have gone D3.  The status of a scholarship is there , but also the allure of money is too great and maybe it's hard to argue with them with the cost of tuition at most D3 schools, but it is impossible to argue that it has caused the quality of D3 basketball to go down.   

As KnightSlappy pointed out, D3 teams triumph over NAIA-2 teams more often than not. The comparative year-to-year strength of the Cornerstone and Aquinas programs (as well as some of the nearby Indiana NAIA-2s such as Grace, Bethel, and Marian) may be deceptive in that regard for those southwestern Michiganders who are looking at the bigger picture.

I think that NAIA programs in general have had an impact in terms of luring potential D3 players away with scholarships, but the trend is uneven and I'm not sure that it's all that great. In Chicagoland, NAIA-2 programs have trouble competing in recruiting with even NAthC programs, let alone CCIW programs. (NAIA-1 programs such as St. Xavier and Olivet Nazarene are a different matter entirely, of course.)

The reality is that the six scholarships offered by NAIA-2 programs, when apportioned among an entire roster, are pretty seriously diluted. Plus, lots of NAIA programs don't offer the full allotment of scholarships per sport, and some don't even offer athletic scholarships at all. By contrast, D3 schools on average tend to have larger endowments, and, thus, they often have better financial aid packages than NAIA schools. D3 schools also tend more often than their NAIA competitors to be "establishment" schools, name-brand institutions of long standing that have solid academic reputations, while NAIA schools are more likely to be younger and less well-established academically. (These are broad generalizations with myriad exceptions, so please don't bother trying to list them.) These factors affect the recruiting process as well.

So I'm not sure that you can take the situation of Cornerstone and Aquinas and apply it on a national scale. As with everything else in intercollegiate sports, there is a vast spectrum out there in terms of the resources schools have and what they do with it.

Or players who have gone to Davenport or Sienna Heights or Concordia-Ann Arbor or Spring Arbor and got a scholarship instead of going to any other MIAA school.

I think a scenario that plays out with many "very good" high school basketball player in the last 10 years goes like this: "Wow, (fill in your favorite dIII/MIAA team here) costs (fill in the cost of your favorite dIII/MIAA school here). And NAIA school X costs somewhat less. AND they're going to give me some money to play basketball!"    So they end up at an NAIA II school and not at an MIAA school.

I would be curious to know how many non-dI or DII "scholarship" basketball programs there were in Michigan 15 years ago compared to now. I would wager to guess that there are an average of at least two players on each of the lower ranked teams in the WHAC today (CUAA, Madonna, UM-D, Siena Heights - heck, throw Rochester, Grace Bible and maybe Spring Arbor into the mix and then add Davenport because they didn't have a team 15 years ago.) that would be on and contributing to an MIAA team if it were 15 years ago.  

Somebody help me with the NAIA schools of about 15 years ago in the state of Michigan. Which ones were giving scholarships or were "traditionally strong" to the point that they were competing with MIAA schools for talent?

[sac]

2009 Hall of Fame Classic

2009 pairings at Calvin College, Friday
Hope vs Aquinas 6pm
Calvin vs Cornerstone 8pm

Consolation game 6pm, Championship 8pm Saturday

Aquinas 4-2
players to watch  John Lierman 6-4 Sr G/F  20.4 pts, Damacius White 6-0 So G 17.2 pts

Cornerstone 5-2
players to watch Matt Kingshott 6-5 Sr. C 12.9 pts, Kelvin DeVries 6-6 Jr F 12.9 pts.

Calvin 1-1
players to watch John Mantel 6-8 Sr. C 15.5 pts, Matt Veltema 6-6 Sr F 12.0 pts

Hope 1-0
players to watch Peter Bunn 6-2 Jr. G, Will Bowser 6-5 Jr. F 24 pts


The historical stuff.................


Hall of Fame Classic Champions
1996 - Grand Valley
1997 - Hope
1998 - Grand Valley
1999 - Calvin
2000 - Calvin
2001 - Cornerstone
2002 - Hope
2003 - Grand Valley
2004 - Cornerstone
2005 - Hope
2006 - Hope
2007 - Aquinas
2008 - Aquinas



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope makes its 12th Hall of Fame Classic appearance.
Champions: 1997, 2002, 2005, 2006

vs Aquinas 3-4
vs Cornerstone 7-4
vs Calvin 1-0

Hope and Aquinas have met 7 times in this tournament, Hope winning 3 AQ 4.  They've met 4 times in round 1 with AQ winning 3, including 2007's thriller in OT.  Two of Hope's other wins have come in the consolation game.

Hope has met Cornerstone 11 times winning 7, including once in the Championship game.

Hope and Calvin have met once with Hope winning in the 2006 Championship game.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calvin makes its 11th Hall of Fame appearance
Champions: 1999, 2000

vs. Cornerstone 5-3
vs. Aquinas 5-3
vs Hope 0-1

Calvin has met Cornerstone  8 times winning 5.  The Golden Eagles and Knights have played in the Championship against each other 3 times.  

AQ and Calvin have met 8 times with Calvin winning 5.

Calvin has made a leading 8 Championship games, winning 2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aquinas is makeing its 12th appearance
Champions: 2007, 2008

vs. Calvin 3-5
vs Hope 4-3
vs Cornerstone 1-2


AQ and Cornerstone have met 3 times, all in the consolation game with Cornerstone winning 2.

AQ has appeared in three championship game, 1999 and in 2007 beating Hope in OT and Calvin in 2OT, beating Hope in 2008
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cornerstone is makeing its 13th appearance, most of the 5 present and past participants.
Champions: 2001, 2004

vs Aquinas 2-1
vs Calvin 3-5
vs Hope 4-7

Cornerstone has played in 4 championship contests, winning 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

bullets

--Aquinas and Cornerstone are both coming off recent wins vs D2 competition.  I'm not sure either is as strong as past versions but those wins should make the other participants take note

--Hard to believe Calvin has not won this tournament in 9 years

--Field seems as wide open as its ever been, but I think thats become the norm for this tournament.  You could make a strong case for any of the four teams winning this weekend.

[hope1]

everyone  have a really nice thanksgiving   

  and be at the calvin gym friday  night

[Civic Minded]

Happy Thanksgiving all!  I'm thankful for MIAA basketball, and those who work so hard to give us something to talk about.  Let the games begin!      (Is it Friday yet??)

[realist]

RFMi:  You make some valid points, but imo there is more to the college selection process than simply which one is cheapest, and which one gives me the most money.  Much depends on what the students career objective may be, and going to any school just to play sports (and not the education) might be questioned.  I am sure many of posters here would say (like I do) that the quality education I received was more than worth the extra money I paid.
Thanks for the analysis Sac. 

[oldknight]

This being Black Friday--and my wife having deserted me for the joys of entering a shopping mall--I have taken the time to surf Pat Coleman's website, taken Seneca's advice and tried to glean a few bits of useless information. Among other things, I checked out Lewis & Clark College, the Knights' first opponent at the Phoenix Cactus Jam during the Christmas break. Located in Portland, Oregon, that's a school few of us Midwestern posters (outside of Greg Sager) know anything about. Here are several amazing--even astonishing items I learned.

1. I immediately noticed that L & C's head coach is listed as Bob Gaillard (San Francisco '62) and wondered if this could be the same Bob Gaillard who was head coach for the Dons for most of the 1970's (USF won back-to-back national championships under the legendary Pete Newell when he had Bill Russell patrolling the paint). Lo and behold, L & C's coach indeed is the same Bob Gaillard who was named national coach of the year in 1977 when San Francisco won their first 29 games and achieved a national # 1 ranking for much of the year. The Dons' post player at the time was Bill Cartwright, later the center for the Chicago Bulls when that team won their first three championships with Michael Jordon. Gaillard left the San Francisco program in 1978 in the wake of an NCAA investigation that led to probation.

2. This year's L & C team started with a scrimmage against Oregon of the PAC-10 and the Pioneers lost by a creditable 74-59 score. Since then L & C has played 3 regular season contests and lost all of them, two in OT.

3. The Pioneers' season box shows they have 4 players averaging more than 40 minutes of playing time per game, and a fifth at 39.7. Two players (James Hollins and Scott Pisapia) average 43 minutes per contest. That's not a typo, I double checked L & C's website. In L & C's overtime loss to Willaim Jessup, all five Pioneer starters are listed as playing the full 45 (two subs show in the box  as 0+ minutes, presumably entering only long enough to try and commit a personal foul).

4. L & C starts 4 guards , the tallest of whom is 6'3". The starting center is 6'6" but only weighs in at 195. Of these 5 starters, 3 are freshmen and one is a sophomore.

5. L & C plays games today and tomorrow and then does not play again until meeting Calvin, precisely one month later.

[RFMichigan]

RFMi:  You make some valid points, but imo there is more to the college selection process than simply which one is cheapest, and which one gives me the most money.  Much depends on what the students career objective may be, and going to any school just to play sports (and not the education) might be questioned.  I am sure many of posters here would say (like I do) that the quality education I received was more than worth the extra money I paid.

Realist, I agree with you that there is a lot more that goes into a college choice than what's the cheapest net cost of a school. I, too, agree that the cost of a "dIII" school education is a great value compared to a "less expensive" college education. I think that MIAA schools (and many other small, private colleges) do a great job of keeping costs competative with public schools through grants, scholarships, etc.

However, I think the fact exsists that there are more viable options for good high school basketball players today than there were 15-20 years ago, and part of that option is the athletic scholarships that are available from NAIA schools in MIchigan that weren't there back then. I agree that the athletic scholarship is not always the defining reason for a student-athlete to attend the school that they do. (My scenario was pretty simplistic I admit.) In fact, I personally don't think that it should be the primary factor. But I think that it is a major factor in the decision making process and that it has lessened to some degree the quality of play in some dIII conferences.