MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[KnightSlappy]

The Bible Tigers of Grace (student enrollment, 190) dismantled Cornerstone last night 82-68 at Mol Arena. Calvin's opening game loss--by almost the identical score--is looking less and less disappointing.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2009/12/grace_bible_shows_it_belongs_v.html

For a city of less than 200,000 people, Grand Rapids has a pretty impressive resume for small-college men's basketball.

I think you aren't using the proper census data.

I think I am. According to the 2000 U.S. census, the population of Grand Rapids was 197,800, and the estimated population as of last year was 193,396.

I think you aren't.  GBC actually rests in the City of Wyoming. So if you are going to use the figures of only the city, then you would have to seperate them out by each city, in which case GBC's city population is 69,368.

Grace Bible College's official address is in Grand Rapids.

Greg, I live in the city of Kentwood (I'm still only about a 4 iron away from Calvin's campus), but my address says Grand Rapids. If you are counting grace as "Grand Rapids" you need to count Kentwood, Wyoming, etc. into your population which is the 778,833 number.

[HopeConvert]

The Bible Tigers of Grace (student enrollment, 190) dismantled Cornerstone last night 82-68 at Mol Arena. Calvin's opening game loss--by almost the identical score--is looking less and less disappointing.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2009/12/grace_bible_shows_it_belongs_v.html

For a city of less than 200,000 people, Grand Rapids has a pretty impressive resume for small-college men's basketball.

I think you aren't using the proper census data.

I think I am. According to the 2000 U.S. census, the population of Grand Rapids was 197,800, and the estimated population as of last year was 193,396.

My point being that the SMA or CSA is a better measure of the available talent pool than the city limits proper.

So I'm guessing we're comparing apples and oranges. I take it you are suggesting that the city proper has an unusually high number of small colleges, and a high percentage of those field competitive basketball teams.

The best measure I have of how Grand Rapids might fare comparatively comes from this study:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-10-04/americas-smartest-cities---from-first-to-worst/#

You'll see that the area is ranked 30th, taking in such measures as the number of colleges and universities, as well as citizens with advanced degrees. This puts it ahead of places such as Cleveland, Tampa, Miami, and Houston; barely behind LA and not far behind Chicago. This doesn't exactly address the issue of whether Grand Rapids (or, if we want to include Hope, the GSA) has an unusually high ratio of competitive college basketball teams to population, but it's a start.

Without specific data at hand, I'd just be guessing about which urban area might have the highest ratio of competitive teams to population. Obviously the Greater Chicago Area has a lot of teams, but also high population density. Northeast OH, if we cast the net broadly enough, would seem to be competitive in this regard. The UW campuses make that area competitive, especially when you throw in St. Norbert and Carthage. Boston has quite a few teams, but also high population.

[realist]

The Trine game was fun to watch, and follow on live stats whenever my video feed froze up.

I know rankings are meaningless and teams may not always be as strong as previous teams but.... Wheaton loses to Wash U by 2?  Calvin and Hope make some adjustments and don't overcoach too much , they may find themselves in Salem come March

Calvin has never had a problem with being over-coached and the word "adjustments" is not in the vocabulary.

+ karma;  well said.  I have found the adherence to a "preset" game plan, player rotation etc. at times to be maddening.  No coach opposing KVS has to wonder what Calvin might throw at them.  

[HopeConvert]

The Bible Tigers of Grace (student enrollment, 190) dismantled Cornerstone last night 82-68 at Mol Arena. Calvin's opening game loss--by almost the identical score--is looking less and less disappointing.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2009/12/grace_bible_shows_it_belongs_v.html

For a city of less than 200,000 people, Grand Rapids has a pretty impressive resume for small-college men's basketball.

I think you aren't using the proper census data.

I think I am. According to the 2000 U.S. census, the population of Grand Rapids was 197,800, and the estimated population as of last year was 193,396.

I think you aren't.  GBC actually rests in the City of Wyoming. So if you are going to use the figures of only the city, then you would have to seperate them out by each city, in which case GBC's city population is 69,368.

Grace Bible College's official address is in Grand Rapids.

Addresses aren't real exact around here. My address shows up as either Grandville or Wyoming. According to the map on the City of Grand Rapids' official website, GBC would clearly be in Wyoming.

[oldknight]

The Bible Tigers of Grace (student enrollment, 190) dismantled Cornerstone last night 82-68 at Mol Arena. Calvin's opening game loss--by almost the identical score--is looking less and less disappointing.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2009/12/grace_bible_shows_it_belongs_v.html

For a city of less than 200,000 people, Grand Rapids has a pretty impressive resume for small-college men's basketball.

I think you aren't using the proper census data.

I think I am. According to the 2000 U.S. census, the population of Grand Rapids was 197,800, and the estimated population as of last year was 193,396.

I think you aren't.  GBC actually rests in the City of Wyoming. So if you are going to use the figures of only the city, then you would have to seperate them out by each city, in which case GBC's city population is 69,368.

Grace Bible College's official address is in Grand Rapids.

Being a strict constructionist, I would have to award Round 1 in this debate to the esteemed Mr. Sager, since he limited his statement to "Grand Rapids". Under ordinary understandings of that proper noun, he should be understood to be referring to the City of Grand Rapids, not the greater metropolitan area. On its face, Sager's original statement is indisputably true. Now, if I was a liberal arts tenure-tracked professor (some might consider that to be a redundancy, if not a tautology) I would have a more expansive reading of the original text.

Grace Bible's mailing address may say it's in Grand Rapids (a source of constant irritation to the City of Wyoming), but the school is plainly located within Wyoming's city limits. GBC is situated in a residential neighborhood and if you drive past it and don't look carefully at the signage, you would swear that you were passing by that neighborhood's middle school. It's really amazing what Grace has accomplished athletically in recent years.

[HopeConvert]

The Bible Tigers of Grace (student enrollment, 190) dismantled Cornerstone last night 82-68 at Mol Arena. Calvin's opening game loss--by almost the identical score--is looking less and less disappointing.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2009/12/grace_bible_shows_it_belongs_v.html

For a city of less than 200,000 people, Grand Rapids has a pretty impressive resume for small-college men's basketball.

I think you aren't using the proper census data.

I think I am. According to the 2000 U.S. census, the population of Grand Rapids was 197,800, and the estimated population as of last year was 193,396.

I think you aren't.  GBC actually rests in the City of Wyoming. So if you are going to use the figures of only the city, then you would have to seperate them out by each city, in which case GBC's city population is 69,368.

Grace Bible College's official address is in Grand Rapids.

Being a strict constructionist, I would have to award Round 1 in this debate to the esteemed Mr. Sager, since he limited his statement to "Grand Rapids". Under ordinary understandings of that proper noun, he should be understood to be referring to the City of Grand Rapids, not the greater metropolitan area. On its face, Sager's original statement is indisputably true. Now, if I was a liberal arts tenure-tracked professor (some might consider that to be a redundancy, if not a tautology) I would have a more expansive reading of the original text.

Grace Bible's mailing address may say it's in Grand Rapids (a source of constant irritation to the City of Wyoming), but the school is plainly located within Wyoming's city limits. GBC is situated in a residential neighborhood and if you drive past it and don't look carefully at the signage, you would swear that you were passing by that neighborhood's middle school. It's really amazing what Grace has accomplished athletically in recent years.

Lawyers! 

Whatever happened to MIAA solidarity?

[Gregory Sager]

OK, fine. At the risk of having my original statement -- which was meant as a compliment -- die the death of a thousand qualifications, I hereby amend it to read:

For a city of less than 200,000 people, Grand Rapids has a pretty impressive resume for small-college men's basketball with regard to schools that use the city as their mailing address.

Everybody happy now?

(And, before anyone else points it out ... yes, I'm aware that my being nitpicked to death is a textbook case drawn straight from the files of the Department of Getting A Taste Of My Own Medicine. )

[northb]

The Bible Tigers of Grace (student enrollment, 190) dismantled Cornerstone last night 82-68 at Mol Arena. Calvin's opening game loss--by almost the identical score--is looking less and less disappointing.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2009/12/grace_bible_shows_it_belongs_v.html

For a city of less than 200,000 people, Grand Rapids has a pretty impressive resume for small-college men's basketball.

I think you aren't using the proper census data.

I think I am. According to the 2000 U.S. census, the population of Grand Rapids was 197,800, and the estimated population as of last year was 193,396.

I think you aren't.  GBC actually rests in the City of Wyoming. So if you are going to use the figures of only the city, then you would have to seperate them out by each city, in which case GBC's city population is 69,368.

Grace Bible College's official address is in Grand Rapids.

Greg, I live in the city of Kentwood (I'm still only about a 4 iron away from Calvin's campus), but my address says Grand Rapids. If you are counting grace as "Grand Rapids" you need to count Kentwood, Wyoming, etc. into your population which is the 778,833 number.

Greg, come visit and we can show you around.  We will not blame you for your ignorance on this one.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, come visit and we can show you around.  We will not blame you for your ignorance on this one.

Gee, who could decline such a gracious invitation?

[ChicagoHopeNut]

I have been slow to join the discussion this year and I joined on a day the discussion is certainly interesting. I would label the current topic one of my favorite random debates on this board ever. I feel smarter reading your musings.

[sac]

So far the two mens games are still on for tonight.  The Hope/Trine women's game tonight has been postponed again to Friday.  Which means there will be some form of a triple header at DeVos with the Holland Sentinel Tournament taking place in the evening.

sac,

The rescheduled women's game Friday is AT Trine ... On Saturday, the Flying Dutch host Olivet at 7 p.m., so there will be a tripleheader then!

Thats a minor technicality. 


So Friday nights game is not within the MSA or CSA of Grand Rapids, but Saturday's game is within the MSA but not the  CSA.  None of those games are in the city of Wyoming ....or the state, though I've been to both the city and state of Wyoming this doesn't disappoint me.

...also NCIS reruns are supersweet.

[AndOne]

The Bible Tigers of Grace (student enrollment, 190) dismantled Cornerstone last night 82-68 at Mol Arena. Calvin's opening game loss--by almost the identical score--is looking less and less disappointing.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2009/12/grace_bible_shows_it_belongs_v.html

For a city of less than 200,000 people, Grand Rapids has a pretty impressive resume for small-college men's basketball.

I think you aren't using the proper census data. The MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) for Grand Rapids, according to 2008 census estimates, is 778,833. The CSA (Combined Statistical Area - which would include Holland up to Muskegon) is 1,324,513, making it the 32nd largest in the US, right behind Louisville but ahead of cities such as Buffalo, Oklahoma City, and New Orleans.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/metrodef.html

(FWIW: census.gov is one of my favorite websites.)

Hope---

You quite likely were a math major, and now employed as a statistician. As my wife, the college math teacher says, only a statistician OR someone with a totally illogical mind for math, could make < 200,000 come out to be 1,324,513!     

Even if you include the entire Kent County population, you're still only at approximately 604,000. From how far away are people over there coming to see D3 basketball games?

I chose the statistician description for you least anyone think of you as illogical in any way.   

[sac]

1.3 million people live within a 45 minutes drive of Grand Rapids.

[Mr. Ypsi]

The Bible Tigers of Grace (student enrollment, 190) dismantled Cornerstone last night 82-68 at Mol Arena. Calvin's opening game loss--by almost the identical score--is looking less and less disappointing.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2009/12/grace_bible_shows_it_belongs_v.html

For a city of less than 200,000 people, Grand Rapids has a pretty impressive resume for small-college men's basketball.

I think you aren't using the proper census data. The MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) for Grand Rapids, according to 2008 census estimates, is 778,833. The CSA (Combined Statistical Area - which would include Holland up to Muskegon) is 1,324,513, making it the 32nd largest in the US, right behind Louisville but ahead of cities such as Buffalo, Oklahoma City, and New Orleans.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/metrodef.html

(FWIW: census.gov is one of my favorite websites.)

Hope---

You quite likely were a math major, and now employed as a statistician. As my wife, the college math teacher says, only a statistician OR someone with a totally illogical mind for math, could make < 200,000 come out to be 1,324,513!     

Even if you include the entire Kent County population, you're still only at approximately 604,000. From how far away are people over there coming to see D3 basketball games?

I chose the statistician description for you least anyone think of you as illogical in any way.   

I've heard rumors that people from Holland do sometimes attend games in Grand Rapids (and vice versa). 8)  Muskegon, I don't know.

My judgment would be that Greg finally lost one on the merits (though a great attempted save on a technicality! ).

I guess you (like me, too often ) couldn't resist jumping in.  The statistician cracks will, of course, cost you!

[sac]

Davenport 82 Olivet 72