MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[HopeConvert]

1.3 million people live within a 45 minutes drive of Grand Rapids.

Actually, it's only going to the west. Kalamazoo and Battle Creek form a separate CSA, while to the east it quickly becomes part of Lansing's. So the GR CSA would include Jenison, Grandville, Wyoming, Hudsonville, Zeeland, Holland, Grand Haven, Muskegon - and other local areas.

To go back to Greg's original post, I simply wanted to make sure Hope was included. That said, I am still puzzled by this population/competitive men's college basketball ratio and which area might have the highest.

[thealmascots]

Quoting OK: "I just can't get over the quality of shots Calvin's defense consistently gives opponents this year."
Really   It's not only the quality, but the quantity that should concern you.  FWIW This situation is not new to this year!
IMHO this occurs with regularity because opposing coaches know exactly what defense Calvin is going to play, and it doesn't take much time to figure out how to use that to your advantage.  Expecting Calvin's results to change without a change in Calvin's basic defense is idle daydreaming.
Concentrating on perfecting a defensive scheme everyone knows has produced a 2-5 record. 

I don't think the scheme is to blame, I think poor execution is to blame.

Knightslappy,
I could not disagree with you more.  Realist is looking at the same thing I have been looking at for years.

[KnightSlappy]

Quoting OK: "I just can't get over the quality of shots Calvin's defense consistently gives opponents this year."
Really   It's not only the quality, but the quantity that should concern you.  FWIW This situation is not new to this year!
IMHO this occurs with regularity because opposing coaches know exactly what defense Calvin is going to play, and it doesn't take much time to figure out how to use that to your advantage.  Expecting Calvin's results to change without a change in Calvin's basic defense is idle daydreaming.
Concentrating on perfecting a defensive scheme everyone knows has produced a 2-5 record. 

I don't think the scheme is to blame, I think poor execution is to blame.

Knightslappy,
I could not disagree with you more.  Realist is looking at the same thing I have been looking at for years.

How many years? Is this the same scheme that won the league championship last season? Or that won 3 of the last 6* MIAA Tournaments? Or that earned a trip to Salem in 2005?

*Corrected my typo from 5 to 6, thanks FDF

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Quoting OK: "I just can't get over the quality of shots Calvin's defense consistently gives opponents this year."
Really   It's not only the quality, but the quantity that should concern you.  FWIW This situation is not new to this year!
IMHO this occurs with regularity because opposing coaches know exactly what defense Calvin is going to play, and it doesn't take much time to figure out how to use that to your advantage.  Expecting Calvin's results to change without a change in Calvin's basic defense is idle daydreaming.
Concentrating on perfecting a defensive scheme everyone knows has produced a 2-5 record. 

I don't think the scheme is to blame, I think poor execution is to blame.

Knightslappy,
I could not disagree with you more.  Realist is looking at the same thing I have been looking at for years.

How many years? Is this the same scheme that won the league championship last season? Or that won 3 of the last 5 MIAA Tournaments? Or that earned a trip to Salem in 2005?

Hmm - Hope won 3 of the last 4, so not sure how Calvin could have won 3 out of 5

[GoKnights68]

Quoting OK: "I just can't get over the quality of shots Calvin's defense consistently gives opponents this year."
Really  It's not only the quality, but the quantity that should concern you.  FWIW This situation is not new to this year!
IMHO this occurs with regularity because opposing coaches know exactly what defense Calvin is going to play, and it doesn't take much time to figure out how to use that to your advantage.  Expecting Calvin's results to change without a change in Calvin's basic defense is idle daydreaming.
Concentrating on perfecting a defensive scheme everyone knows has produced a 2-5 record.  

I don't think the scheme is to blame, I think poor execution is to blame.

Knightslappy,
I could not disagree with you more.  Realist is looking at the same thing I have been looking at for years.

How many years? Is this the same scheme that won the league championship last season? Or that won 3 of the last 5 MIAA Tournaments? Or that earned a trip to Salem in 2005?

Sorry to be a stickler with stats, but Calvin has won 2 out of the last 5 MIAA tournaments.  If you are thinking of the 2004 one that Calvin won, that would be 3 out of the last 6 tournaments.


As for the defense, I'll add my quick two cents.  Calvin always seems to have a problem with allowing wide-open shooters, but what frustrated me last night is all the easy shots down-low that Aquinas had with back-door cuts, and frankly, just out-muscling some of our players.  Mantel and Schuster had a tremendous size-advantage on everyone from Aquinas, so I was hoping to see them get some nice blocks, but that did not really happen.   I will add offensively, I was impressed by Mantel doing a solid job at finding the open man when he was being double-teamed down low.

Forcing a team to shoot open 3s can work against less-talented teams, but it will not work against teams like Aquinas, Cornerstone, or Hope imo.

Calvin's record sure isn't pretty, but they've faced some real good teams that they have been "oh so close" at beating.  I think they'll be alright come January.  It looked to me that Coach KVS is starting to find who he feels comfortable in the line-up at certain points of the game.

[GoKnights68]

Quoting OK: "I just can't get over the quality of shots Calvin's defense consistently gives opponents this year."
Really   It's not only the quality, but the quantity that should concern you.  FWIW This situation is not new to this year!
IMHO this occurs with regularity because opposing coaches know exactly what defense Calvin is going to play, and it doesn't take much time to figure out how to use that to your advantage.  Expecting Calvin's results to change without a change in Calvin's basic defense is idle daydreaming.
Concentrating on perfecting a defensive scheme everyone knows has produced a 2-5 record. 

I don't think the scheme is to blame, I think poor execution is to blame.

Knightslappy,
I could not disagree with you more.  Realist is looking at the same thing I have been looking at for years.

How many years? Is this the same scheme that won the league championship last season? Or that won 3 of the last 5 MIAA Tournaments? Or that earned a trip to Salem in 2005?

Hmm - Hope won 3 of the last 4, so not sure how Calvin could have won 3 out of 5

Ahh did not see your reply yet when I was typing my reply above about the stat-correction. 

[realist]

It is the same one that has gone 161-76 since 2000.  That equals 68% winning mark.  I don't call 16-11 seasons acceptable, and imo Calvin should do better than 68%.  Compare that to Hope's 193-67 (74%) for the same time period.  Hope played 23 more games than Calvin during that period, and they all came at the end of the season.
Even worse compare our record in the Van Noord to theirs at the De Vos.
If you take Calvin's opponents shooting % season to date, and consider that has yielded a 2-5 record with only two games off your home court I do not find any great reason to predict another MIAA title run.  Even without the advantage of many math classes it would appear more likely that Calvin may struggle to get to .500.  
The point is Calvin has become very predictable.  Blame the players if you want.  It seems some would rather endure more losses than consider the possibility that changing to accomodate the players you have might yield more positive results than cramming your players into your "scheme".

[KnightSlappy]

It is the same one that has gone 161-76 since 2000.  That equals 68% winning mark.  I don't call 16-11 seasons acceptable, and imo Calvin should do better than 68%.  Compare that to Hope's 193-67 (74%) for the same time period.  Hope played 23 more games than Calvin during that period, and they all came at the end of the season.
Even worse compare our record in the Van Noord to theirs at the De Vos.
If you take Calvin's opponents shooting % season to date, and consider that has yielded a 2-5 record with only two games off your home court I do not find any great reason to predict another MIAA title run.  Even without the advantage of many math classes it would appear more likely that Calvin may struggle to get to .500.  
The point is Calvin has become very predictable.  Blame the players if you want.  It seems some would rather endure more losses than consider the possibility that changing to accomodate the players you have might yield more positive results than cramming your players into your "scheme".

For me, I'll take the 6 NCAA tournament appearances, 5 league titles, 5 tournament titles, 2 final fours, and 1 National title in the last decade and be satisfied.

Be careful about pushing out Lloyd Carr, you may end up with Rich Rod.

[Dark Knight]

Quoting OK: "I just can't get over the quality of shots Calvin's defense consistently gives opponents this year."
Really   It's not only the quality, but the quantity that should concern you.  FWIW This situation is not new to this year!
IMHO this occurs with regularity because opposing coaches know exactly what defense Calvin is going to play, and it doesn't take much time to figure out how to use that to your advantage.  Expecting Calvin's results to change without a change in Calvin's basic defense is idle daydreaming.
Concentrating on perfecting a defensive scheme everyone knows has produced a 2-5 record. 

I don't think the scheme is to blame, I think poor execution is to blame.

Knightslappy,
I could not disagree with you more.  Realist is looking at the same thing I have been looking at for years.

How many years? Is this the same scheme that won the league championship last season? Or that won 3 of the last 6* MIAA Tournaments? Or that earned a trip to Salem in 2005?

*Corrected my typo from 5 to 6, thanks FDF

Everyone's right, and we're all one big happy family. (Where's the purple dinosaur when you need him?)

With the right personnel and a year or two of practice together, the system can be highly effective and help a team to finish third in the nation, when they were picked third in the conference. The way that team executed the system was a thing of beauty.

On the other hand, when you have lots of PT minutes going to players who are unfamiliar with the system, it tends to give up layups and open 3s left and right.

This Calvin team has shown that they have some talented players. I really think that by the end of the year they'll be winning games like those against Aquinas, Wheaton, Hope, etc.--playing like a top 15 team, let's say.

[thealmascots]

It is the same one that has gone 161-76 since 2000.  That equals 68% winning mark.  I don't call 16-11 seasons acceptable, and imo Calvin should do better than 68%.  Compare that to Hope's 193-67 (74%) for the same time period.  Hope played 23 more games than Calvin during that period, and they all came at the end of the season.
Even worse compare our record in the Van Noord to theirs at the De Vos.
If you take Calvin's opponents shooting % season to date, and consider that has yielded a 2-5 record with only two games off your home court I do not find any great reason to predict another MIAA title run.  Even without the advantage of many math classes it would appear more likely that Calvin may struggle to get to .500.  
The point is Calvin has become very predictable.  Blame the players if you want.  It seems some would rather endure more losses than consider the possibility that changing to accomodate the players you have might yield more positive results than cramming your players into your "scheme".

Once again, Realist, I completely agree.  I will only add that I'm not looking so much at results at seasons end.  I'm looking at what is accomplished compared with the talent you have.  The only season I can think of which Calvin over-achieved in recent memory was the run to the Final Four in 2005.  Every other year is a season of frustration because the talent on the floor is better than the results they end up with.  It's called under-achievement.  Calvin College should be competing with themselves more than their opponents each year because they have more talent than anyone else.  If you have the chance, ask one of the players how they did in summer leagues.  They are beating everyone because they have more talent and they are playing pick up ball with no "scheme."  The "scheme" is getting in the way and has been for years.

[GoKnights68]

It is the same one that has gone 161-76 since 2000.  That equals 68% winning mark.  I don't call 16-11 seasons acceptable, and imo Calvin should do better than 68%.  Compare that to Hope's 193-67 (74%) for the same time period.  Hope played 23 more games than Calvin during that period, and they all came at the end of the season.
Even worse compare our record in the Van Noord to theirs at the De Vos.
If you take Calvin's opponents shooting % season to date, and consider that has yielded a 2-5 record with only two games off your home court I do not find any great reason to predict another MIAA title run.  Even without the advantage of many math classes it would appear more likely that Calvin may struggle to get to .500.  
The point is Calvin has become very predictable.  Blame the players if you want.  It seems some would rather endure more losses than consider the possibility that changing to accomodate the players you have might yield more positive results than cramming your players into your "scheme".

Once again, Realist, I completely agree.  I will only add that I'm not looking so much at results at seasons end.  I'm looking at what is accomplished compared with the talent you have.  The only season I can think of which Calvin over-achieved in recent memory was the run to the Final Four in 2005.  Every other year is a season of frustration because the talent on the floor is better than the results they end up with.  It's called under-achievement.  Calvin College should be competing with themselves more than their opponents each year because they have more talent than anyone else.  If you have the chance, ask one of the players how they did in summer leagues.  They are beating everyone because they have more talent and they are playing pick up ball with no "scheme."  The "scheme" is getting in the way and has been for years.

I' would definitely add the 2006 season to the "over-achieving" category.  That team was basically Draayer, Trewella, and Meckes with a bunch of brand-new varsity players(a lot of freshmen) that started out the season looking terrible in the Select Bank tourney, but ended up winning the league outright with, imo, more talented teams that year like Hope and Albion, and almost going to the sweet 16 that ended with a controversial call.

[GoKnights68]

Quoting OK: "I just can't get over the quality of shots Calvin's defense consistently gives opponents this year."
Really   It's not only the quality, but the quantity that should concern you.  FWIW This situation is not new to this year!
IMHO this occurs with regularity because opposing coaches know exactly what defense Calvin is going to play, and it doesn't take much time to figure out how to use that to your advantage.  Expecting Calvin's results to change without a change in Calvin's basic defense is idle daydreaming.
Concentrating on perfecting a defensive scheme everyone knows has produced a 2-5 record. 

I don't think the scheme is to blame, I think poor execution is to blame.

Knightslappy,
I could not disagree with you more.  Realist is looking at the same thing I have been looking at for years.

How many years? Is this the same scheme that won the league championship last season? Or that won 3 of the last 6* MIAA Tournaments? Or that earned a trip to Salem in 2005?

*Corrected my typo from 5 to 6, thanks FDF

Everyone's right, and we're all one big happy family. (Where's the purple dinosaur when you need him?)

With the right personnel and a year or two of practice together, the system can be highly effective and help a team to finish third in the nation, when they were picked third in the conference. The way that team executed the system was a thing of beauty.

On the other hand, when you have lots of PT minutes going to players who are unfamiliar with the system, it tends to give up layups and open 3s left and right.

This Calvin team has shown that they have some talented players. I really think that by the end of the year they'll be winning games like those against Aquinas, Wheaton, Hope, etc.--playing like a top 15 team, let's say.

I think you hit at a great point here.  By the end of the season, Calvin's defensive system usually (key-word usually) will be starting to click, and when Calvin faces out-of-state teams that are not too familiar with Calvin's style of play, Calvin can go on a role like they did in 2005.  Their offense can be that way sometimes too (although I have criticized it many times), where for some reason, it will finally start to work come tourney time if executed correctly.  It looks to me like the players this year are doing a fine job at executing the offense and moving without the ball, which had been a big problem the last few years imo.  Lets hope the defense can start clicking.  Calvin needs to be more aggressive, move their feet better, and of course (drum-roll).......not let good 3-point shooters be wide-open all the time.

[realist]

KS:  I did not include 2000 in my calculations.  
For the record I am not trying to push anyone out.  Just expressing my opinion, and expressing my displeasure and frustration about losing games that really should have been won with the talent on hand.  I don't like losing, and think the record at Van Noord is an embarrassment.
However, I should be careful what I ask for because I will probably go into cardiac arrest if the "scheme" is ever modified let alone abandoned
The defense finally clicking at the end of the season is small consolation when you have already dug yourself into a W-L hole.
Remember Hope has played 23 more games than Calvin.  Part of that is they go to the tournament more often, and part is they win more games when they get there.

[Erm Schmigget]

I'm not a big fan of the "scheme" approach either.  It's terribly frustrating watching your team keep trying the same thing while falling behind late in a game you feel they should be winning, when they otherwise exhibit talents they aren't utilising in the scheme.  Kinda like beating your head on a wall wondering why it's still in the way.  I must say I've seen a little more adjusting from GVW's Dutchmen that I've expected at times in the past few years.  Like the MIAA tourney championship game last year.  I was hoping to see more of that kind of thing late in a game last March just outside Cinci*, but that's a discussion for another board.    

(*Would that be considered the Cinci GSA?)

[HopeConvert]

The Bible Tigers of Grace (student enrollment, 190) dismantled Cornerstone last night 82-68 at Mol Arena. Calvin's opening game loss--by almost the identical score--is looking less and less disappointing.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2009/12/grace_bible_shows_it_belongs_v.html

For a city of less than 200,000 people, Grand Rapids has a pretty impressive resume for small-college men's basketball.

I think you aren't using the proper census data. The MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) for Grand Rapids, according to 2008 census estimates, is 778,833. The CSA (Combined Statistical Area - which would include Holland up to Muskegon) is 1,324,513, making it the 32nd largest in the US, right behind Louisville but ahead of cities such as Buffalo, Oklahoma City, and New Orleans.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/metrodef.html

(FWIW: census.gov is one of my favorite websites.)

Hope---

You quite likely were a math major, and now employed as a statistician. As my wife, the college math teacher says, only a statistician OR someone with a totally illogical mind for math, could make < 200,000 come out to be 1,324,513!    

Even if you include the entire Kent County population, you're still only at approximately 604,000. From how far away are people over there coming to see D3 basketball games?

I chose the statistician description for you least anyone think of you as illogical in any way.  

I'd prefer to be thought of as illogical than a statistician.

I am a sick man. I am a spiteful man. ... Merciful Heavens! But what do I care for the laws of nature and arithmetic when, for some reason I dislike those laws and the fact that twice two makes four? Of course, I cannot break through the wall by battering my head against it if I really have not the strength to knock it down, but I am not going to be reconciled to it simply because it is a stone wall and I have not the strength. ... In fact, man is a comical creature; there seems to be a kind of jest in it all. But yet mathematical certainty is after all, something insufferable. Twice two makes four seems to me simply a piece of insolence. Twice two makes four is a pert coxcomb who stands with arms akimbo barring your path and spitting. I admit that twice two makes four is an excellent thing, but if we are to give everything its due, twice two makes five is sometimes a very charming thing too.