MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[realist]

All players start the game with 5 fouls they can give.  As an opposing coach I am not sure I want my starting big to get in foul trouble early as that would seem to play to Calvin's strenght.  Granted you could put in several players from the bench, and instruct them to play really aggressive D, and live with the foul consequences.  If John makes the f.t. (assuming he was fouled  in the act of shooting or the penalty is on) you haven't really helped yourself that much.  At best you could frustrate, and tire John out, but it may also break up your own teams offense not having your better big in the game.  
In the past I think Calvin was way to quick to go away from forcing the ball inside to John, and part of the reason for that may have been the fact he did not always respond well when doubled or harassed.  My perception is John is playing a more level or consistant game, not being bothered by defenses as much, and the other Calvin players seem to sense this and use John as "go to" in some cases.  
The ONU game, down in the desert, really was indicative of the way Calvin will play and perform in the MIAA games.

[Knightmare]

Sounds like some of the Hope crowd is suggesting a Hack-a-Shaq approach to John Mantel.  A couple of thoughts:  Mantel is shooting .451 from the field (.476 from 2 point land) and .598 from the line (actually .667 after his horrible 9-24 start to the season at the line, but we'll use his full season numbers).  The "expected value" of a field goal attempt is then 2 points x .476 = 0.95 points.  The "expected value" of 2 free throw attempts is 2 shots x .598 = 1.20 points.  Keep fouling, guys.  I'm happy to see Big John keep parading to the stripe.

A good quick analysis, but you do need to take into account a miss on the front end of a 1 & 1 situation thus preventing the 2nd attempt from ever taking place.  Taking that into account probably makes those "expected values" pretty close to even.  Don't think there has been a concentrated effort to go to the "hack-a-shaq" method.  If there had been we would all clearly see it and know it and there wouldn't be any debate or discussion, it would be self-evident, unmissable.

[realist]

Another problem with the "hack a Shaq" approach is you quickly get to the double bonus, and one can't assume only the "poor" f.t shooter will be going to the line.

[ziggy]

Another problem with the "hack a Shaq" approach is you quickly get to the double bonus, and one can't assume only the "poor" f.t shooter will be going to the line.

The other problem is that John has been a much better free throw shooter during his career: 73.3% as a Frosh, 73.1% as a Soph, and 71% as a Junior. Despite what the numbers say this year, I wouldn't characterize Mantel as a poor free throw shooter.

[NW Hope Fan]

Another problem with the "hack a Shaq" approach is you quickly get to the double bonus, and one can't assume only the "poor" f.t shooter will be going to the line.

The other problem is that John has been a much better free throw shooter during his career: 73.3% as a Frosh, 73.1% as a Soph, and 71% as a Junior. Despite what the numbers say this year, I wouldn't characterize Mantel as a poor free throw shooter.

I watched Shaq shoot free throws from the 3rd row of the Rose Garden on Sunday night... What an ugly ugly sight. John kicks Shaq's rear in free throw shooting!

[Erm Schmigget]

I'm liking this discussion about Mantel.  Lots of good points from many posters.  This is what this board is all about, and I would suggest, the better side of the Rivalry: both sides are intelligent and competent, and don't need to resort to base insults every time to express their differing views.

Back to my previous post, I actually was suggesting there may be a Hack-a-Shaq approach TO A DEGREE.  Mantel is not Shaq, at the line or on the floor, but if someone is struggling at the line, other teams and players know that and should feel more confident in challenging him when he's shooting.  I think Mantel looks at least as good as past years--maybe even a little better--but the fact of the matter is that he has struggled with FT shooting this year.  Why wouldn't that embolden some to challenge him more?  At the worst, he makes the shot and the freethrow.  But that won't happen very many times.  You also have to figure that in some cases, it will force favorable results.  Looking at Wednesday's game, such pressure may have him to pass (he did have 3 assists), alter his shot for a miss (7-13 from 2), result in a block (C. Nelis at 18:24, 2nd half), or force a turnover (2 in the 1st half).  Otherwise, you send him to the line where he misses more than other players (10:19 2nd half, missed both).

Bottom line, if a player is having trouble at the line, opponents should feel more comfortable challenging his shot.  Sure this will result in more opportunities for freethrows, but there are other, more favorable results, too.  The players are smart enough to know this, and should play accordingly.  Hope's "bigs" had 9 fouls Wednesday night.  No one went to the line as many times as Mantel other than Bowser...and look at his FT numbers from that night.    Perhaps Calvin figured they might be better off sending him to the line, too.  

[Erm Schmigget]

Another problem with the "hack a Shaq" approach is you quickly get to the double bonus, and one can't assume only the "poor" f.t shooter will be going to the line.

The other problem is that John has been a much better free throw shooter during his career: 73.3% as a Frosh, 73.1% as a Soph, and 71% as a Junior. Despite what the numbers say this year, I wouldn't characterize Mantel as a poor free throw shooter.

I watched Shaq shoot free throws from the 3rd row of the Rose Garden on Sunday night... What an ugly ugly sight. John kicks Shaq's rear in free throw shooting!

zig:  The proof is in the putting.   

NWHF:  This is a big part of what I mean when I say "Mantel is not Shaq."

[HopeConvert]

Well, Erm's post raises what for me is a pretty interesting issue: I can't recall in the past 5 years this board having any player who has had his game dissected, analyzed, and judged to the degree that Mantel's has. I hope someone can provide a counter-example to my claim, but I'm inclined to believe it's not even close. Again, I am referring to a player's game, and not other issues. If I am right about this, it of course raises the question as to why this might be the case. I have a couple of possible explanations:

• The high expectations for him when he arrived
• An easy explanation for why Calvin has apparently underperformed over the past couple of years
• Familiarity with his family (I'd hope not)
• The general sense that post players are easier to analyze

Any others I'm missing?

[ziggy]

Well, Erm's post raises what for me is a pretty interesting issue: I can't recall in the past 5 years this board having any player who has had his game dissected, analyzed, and judged to the degree that Mantel's has. I hope someone can provide a counter-example to my claim, but I'm inclined to believe it's not even close. Again, I am referring to a player's game, and not other issues. If I am right about this, it of course raises the question as to why this might be the case. I have a couple of possible explanations:

• The high expectations for him when he arrived
• An easy explanation for why Calvin has apparently underperformed over the past couple of years
• Familiarity with his family (I'd hope not)
• The general sense that post players are easier to analyze

Any others I'm missing?

The other name that comes to mind is Eric Voisin. It seems to me he was often critiqued during his time at Hope and may fit into the "you don't know what you have until it's gone" category.

[realist]

Well, Erm's post raises what for me is a pretty interesting issue: I can't recall in the past 5 years this board having any player who has had his game dissected, analyzed, and judged to the degree that Mantel's has. I hope someone can provide a counter-example to my claim, but I'm inclined to believe it's not even close. Again, I am referring to a player's game, and not other issues. If I am right about this, it of course raises the question as to why this might be the case. I have a couple of possible explanations:

• The high expectations for him when he arrived
• An easy explanation for why Calvin has apparently underperformed over the past couple of years
• Familiarity with his family (I'd hope not)
• The general sense that post players are easier to analyze

Any others I'm missing?

The other name that comes to mind is Eric Voisin. It seems to me he was often critiqued during his time at Hope and may fit into the "you don't know what you have until it's gone" category.

I can recall many players over the years that have taken their turn in the analysis bucket.  DVS, MVH, Veldhouse, Riemink to name a few over the last several years.  John did come in with some expectations as to the contribution he would make, but he hardly has an exclusive on that.  Post players may get some more discussion only because the MIAA has lacked a high number of quality player in this slot the past few years.

[northb]

Why wasn't Peter Bunn player of the week over John Mantel ?

Maybe I'm kinda partial to Peter Bunn.... and well I just don't like John Mantel.

Maybe cause John Mantel is a knight? 

Don't like,

really, really, really, really, don't like

want to punch in the nose


or hate?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Well, Erm's post raises what for me is a pretty interesting issue: I can't recall in the past 5 years this board having any player who has had his game dissected, analyzed, and judged to the degree that Mantel's has. I hope someone can provide a counter-example to my claim, but I'm inclined to believe it's not even close. Again, I am referring to a player's game, and not other issues. If I am right about this, it of course raises the question as to why this might be the case. I have a couple of possible explanations:

• The high expectations for him when he arrived
• An easy explanation for why Calvin has apparently underperformed over the past couple of years
• Familiarity with his family (I'd hope not)
• The general sense that post players are easier to analyze

Any others I'm missing?

The other name that comes to mind is Eric Voisin. It seems to me he was often critiqued during his time at Hope and may fit into the "you don't know what you have until it's gone" category.

I can recall many players over the years that have taken their turn in the analysis bucket.  DVS, MVH, Veldhouse, Riemink to name a few over the last several years.  John did come in with some expectations as to the contribution he would make, but he hardly has an exclusive on that.  Post players may get some more discussion only because the MIAA has lacked a high number of quality player in this slot the past few years.

Lately it is also pretty much a requirement that it be a Hope or Calvin player, surely due to the overwhelming number of posters that support those two schools. 

Nothing against those of us in that category (or this great discussion), but I really miss all of the posters from Albion, Adrian, and Kalamazoo that used to be help balance our discussions a bit.  Kudos to those non Hope/Calvin fans who still post.

[ziggy]

Lately it is also pretty much a requirement that it be a Hope or Calvin player, surely due to the overwhelming number of posters that support those two schools. 

Nothing against those of us in that category (or this great discussion), but I really miss all of the posters from Albion, Adrian, and Kalamazoo that used to be help balance our discussions a bit.  Kudos to those non Hope/Calvin fans who still post.

Glen Alfieri is a guy that could have made the list with a stronger posting presence from Trine fans.

[hoopdreams]

my laziness prevents me from looking back too far.  Did anyone acknowledge or explain why Redditt wasn't in the gym Saturday?  Overheard a Hope player saying that he quit.  Smith was quoted as saying " this was our first game without Redditt".

Any word out of Albion how transfer Jennings is going to make his mark?  Joining the JV team or extra spot on varsity, or wait till next year and have 4 years of playing??

Olivet's promising season to go up in flames if they don't win on Wednesday. Starting out 3 games down is not what they had planned on.  As a Hope follower, I am nervous.  As wonderfully as Nelis has played, I don't think he defends the post nearly as well as Osburn did last year and is prone to foul trouble.  Vennema has yet to show any defensive prowess, so hopefully Hope can get MM into foul trouble while HE is playing D.

[HopeConvert]

Well, Erm's post raises what for me is a pretty interesting issue: I can't recall in the past 5 years this board having any player who has had his game dissected, analyzed, and judged to the degree that Mantel's has. I hope someone can provide a counter-example to my claim, but I'm inclined to believe it's not even close. Again, I am referring to a player's game, and not other issues. If I am right about this, it of course raises the question as to why this might be the case. I have a couple of possible explanations:

• The high expectations for him when he arrived
• An easy explanation for why Calvin has apparently underperformed over the past couple of years
• Familiarity with his family (I'd hope not)
• The general sense that post players are easier to analyze

Any others I'm missing?

The other name that comes to mind is Eric Voisin. It seems to me he was often critiqued during his time at Hope and may fit into the "you don't know what you have until it's gone" category.

I can recall many players over the years that have taken their turn in the analysis bucket.  DVS, MVH, Veldhouse, Riemink to name a few over the last several years.  John did come in with some expectations as to the contribution he would make, but he hardly has an exclusive on that.  Post players may get some more discussion only because the MIAA has lacked a high number of quality player in this slot the past few years.

I had considered those names. Veldhouse had seemed to me to come closest to the same level of scrutiny, but in part because there was a lot of debate about whether his game progressed or even regressed from his freshman year (I argued the latter). Marcus and Derek didn't have their games analyzed that much, not that I recall at least, and certainly not as negatively judged as Mantel's has been. Voisin is the most interesting comparison, and I'm inclined to agree that the key factor is the lack of dominant post presences. Given what it would mean to have a player like that, and what a rare commodity they are, when you see a player who looks as if he could become that guy it's easy to become frustrated when he doesn't. We'd all like a Voisin or a Mantel to become a Honderd or a Gugino. A truly great back-to-the-basket post player is the most valuable commodity in D3 hoops. On the Voisin issue, as to whether "you don't know what you have until he's gone," see:

http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/0506/0310howi.htm

The best I've seen in the last 6 years (the timeframe within which I have followed D3 ball closely) was Troy Ruths at Wash U, not only because he had such great footwork and could score from so many positions around the basket, but even more importantly was a very skilled passer from the post. Hope's attempts to double-down on him freed up Thompson, who Ruths found every time. Unfortunately, Thompson connected every time.