MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[realist]

I too, believe that role players ( hate the term"bench players") will play a big part in the outcome.  I'm not bashing GVW but it's hard to argue that his sub patterns tighten up in these big games.  Are they going to get a chance to break a sweat and get into the flow, or not be able to produce like Dav was quoted against I believe, Alma recently?

I don't know KVS from a hole in the ground but I do appreciate his willingness to go 9, 10 or 11 deep, keep kids fresh, and allow his players to play a bit, even through mistakes and missed shots.  I know that's a little vague but that's how I see things.  I still cannot understand why he had Veltema taking the ball out when they needed a 3 in game #1 this year but..... Rodts may have been hot but 2 options are always better than 1.

As well as tanis has seemingly played as of late, and as well as he played in a couple of past Hope/Calvin games, unless their is major foul trouble in the backcourt for hope (bunn), ty will likely play as much as Peter needs to rest.  With tv timeouts this could be 2 minutes tops.  I think he may be playing with a chip on his shoulder right now and this could be huge for hope basketball.  In regards to SAC's comment, I too have noticed how positive ty and Nate, amongst others, have been the entire year.  It speaks volumes about their character as young men.

If you look at Calvin's stats for the MIAA games KVS has stayed almost exclusively with his 9 man rotation.  It shows Haverdink, Capel, Waters, and De Young have each  appeared in only one game.  This tells me that Calvin goes 9 deep, and playing times goes from about 30 mpg down to about 12 mpg.

Hope's conference game stats show 9 man rotation varies from 32 mpg down to 9 mpg.  I considered Nelis and Jared M in with the 9.  
Tanis           has appeared in 4 games, 7.3 mpg
Holwerda                 "             6             7.8 mpg
Dickerson                               4             7.0 mpg
King                                        3            3.7 mpg
Ross                                       4            6.3 mpg

I claim no expertise in GVW's subbing pattern, but I suspect some/most of the p.t. garnered by the above 5 individuals relates directly to injuries, and another factor would be if one of the first 9 had foul troubles.

I don't speak for either KVS or GVW, but just watching the games, and looking at the numbers it would seem they both like about 9 regulars, and will go deeper if necessary or they are blowing someone away.
Both coaches would probably tell us all players have assigned roles.  Some might be starters or serve in leading roles while the others are considered supporting roles.  The beauty of this system is it does keep your players fresh, they know what is expected of them, and for morale purposes most of the guys can be reasonably sure they are going to see p.t.  I am sure those players in supporting roles completely understand the need to have the leading role players on the floor at crunch time.

[almcguirejr]

If you look at Calvin's stats for the MIAA games KVS has stayed almost exclusively with his 9 man rotation.  It shows Haverdink, Capel, Waters, and De Young have each  appeared in only one game.  This tells me that Calvin goes 9 deep, and playing times goes from about 30 mpg down to about 12 mpg.

Hope's conference game stats show 9 man rotation varies from 32 mpg down to 9 mpg.  I considered Nelis and Jared M in with the 9.  
Tanis           has appeared in 4 games, 7.3 mpg
Holwerda                 "             6             7.8 mpg
Dickerson                               4             7.0 mpg
King                                        3            3.7 mpg
Ross                                       4            6.3 mpg

I claim no expertise in GVW's subbing pattern, but I suspect some/most of the p.t. garnered by the above 5 individuals relates directly to injuries, and another factor would be if one of the first 9 had foul troubles.

I don't speak for either KVS or GVW, but just watching the games, and looking at the numbers it would seem they both like about 9 regulars, and will go deeper if necessary or they are blowing someone away.
Both coaches would probably tell us all players have assigned roles.  Some might be starters or serve in leading roles while the others are considered supporting roles.  The beauty of this system is it does keep your players fresh, they know what is expected of them, and for morale purposes most of the guys can be reasonably sure they are going to see p.t.  I am sure those players in supporting roles completely understand the need to have the leading role players on the floor at crunch time.

I don't understand your point.  You don't include Neill or Jungling as part of Hope's rotation.  GVW usually shortens his bench in big games and KVS usually sticks with his routine of certain subs at a particular time on the clock.

[KnightSlappy]

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular but:

I find it funny that when Calvin is in a stretch where they are playing well, and Hope is trailing behind, KVS is applauded for his consistency and GVW gets criticized for pulling too many strings.

When Calvin is in a rough patch, or trailing behind Hope, GVW is lauded for making the right corrections, and KVS gets beat up for not being able to make any adjustments.

[wiz]

If you look at Calvin's stats for the MIAA games KVS has stayed almost exclusively with his 9 man rotation.  It shows Haverdink, Capel, Waters, and De Young have each  appeared in only one game.  This tells me that Calvin goes 9 deep, and playing times goes from about 30 mpg down to about 12 mpg.

Hope's conference game stats show 9 man rotation varies from 32 mpg down to 9 mpg.  I considered Nelis and Jared M in with the 9.  
Tanis           has appeared in 4 games, 7.3 mpg
Holwerda                 "             6             7.8 mpg
Dickerson                               4             7.0 mpg
King                                        3            3.7 mpg
Ross                                       4            6.3 mpg

I claim no expertise in GVW's subbing pattern, but I suspect some/most of the p.t. garnered by the above 5 individuals relates directly to injuries, and another factor would be if one of the first 9 had foul troubles.

I don't speak for either KVS or GVW, but just watching the games, and looking at the numbers it would seem they both like about 9 regulars, and will go deeper if necessary or they are blowing someone away.
Both coaches would probably tell us all players have assigned roles.  Some might be starters or serve in leading roles while the others are considered supporting roles.  The beauty of this system is it does keep your players fresh, they know what is expected of them, and for morale purposes most of the guys can be reasonably sure they are going to see p.t.  I am sure those players in supporting roles completely understand the need to have the leading role players on the floor at crunch time.

I don't understand your point.  You don't include Neill or Jungling as part of Hope's rotation.  GVW usually shortens his bench in big games and KVS usually sticks with his routine of certain subs at a particular time on the clock.

These are two seasoned coaches and they both have a pretty solid history of substitution patterns.  While GVW may clamp up in the big game, I have also seen him make wholesale changes and sit the entire starting five at a single time, thus going ten deep.  KVS is going deeper this year because he has a strong bench.  There have been several years where he worked with only a seven man basic rotation.  But he too has his patterns.  Tomorrow at about three minutes gone in the game, you will see his first substitution and it will be Shuster replacing Veltema.  Very predictable.  Also very predicable, with the absence of foul trouble, the strating five will be on the court to wrap up the half.

See you tomorrow.  Go Knights!

[realist]

My thought on the mvp is it is no more fair to penalize J. Mantel or P. Bunn because they play on teams that are able to give others p.t. than it is to reward M Mc Clary and Joe P. because they play on teams that collapse without them.

[wiz]

My thought on the mvp is it is no more fair to penalize J. Mantel or P. Bunn because they play on teams that are able to give others p.t. than it is to reward M Mc Clary and Joe P. because they play on teams that collapse without them.

Exactly!

[realist]

Aljr:  Jungling and Niels are included in the 9 roatation for Hope.  I see they have appeared in all 7 conference games and have 9 (+) mpg average.
I do not find evidence that GVW shortens his bench in big games, and I would count Hope's games versus Calvin, Albion, and Olivet in that category.  

My post was in response to Hoopsdreams post in which he complements KVS on his willingness to go 10 or 11 deep.  Again KVS is locked in on a 9 man rotation, and he does not deviate from his normal substitution pattern much over a season.

Imo 9 is not a deep bench.  12 or 13 guys playing in a normal rotation, on a winning team, would be my idea of a deep bench.

[almcguirejr]

Aljr:  Jungling and Niels are included in the 9 roatation for Hope.  I see they have appeared in all 7 conference games and have 9 (+) mpg average.
I do not find evidence that GVW shortens his bench in big games, and I would count Hope's games versus Calvin, Albion, and Olivet in that category.  

My post was in response to Hoopsdreams post in which he complements KVS on his willingness to go 10 or 11 deep.  Again KVS is locked in on a 9 man rotation, and he does not deviate from his normal substitution pattern much over a season.

Imo 9 is not a deep bench.  12 or 13 guys playing in a normal rotation, on a winning team, would be my idea of a deep bench.

Go look at the minutes played for Hope's starters in the Calvin and Olivet games and tell me GVW didn't shorten his bench in those games.

I don't know of any successful team that has ever played 12-13 guys meaningful minutes.

[hoopdreams]

I guessing I should have said that it seems like he (KVS) plays more based on the # of substitutions he makes during the course of a game.  Based on what I've seen in person, it doesn't look like a "starter" plays for more than 4-5 minutes consectutively, whereas GVW will ride a starter 8, 10, 12 or more minutes in a row before subbing out.  EX #1 at Calvin 2 years ago when the starting 5 played the entire second half, no subs.  I'm not one to analyize stats unless there is something specific I'm curious about...

I guess I feel as though their is more of a flow to Calvin's subbing.  I LOVE the fact that he almost always has 2 or 3 starters on the floor and subs around them, whereas Hope inevitably ends up with 4 or 5 reserves on the floor at once and things tend to stall.  Not always, but often.  

I don't care what the season stats are, in tight games GVW will ride the starters (unless foul trouble or injury).  He always has and always will and I'm notsaying he's in the wrong.  A reserve will only play more than 3 minutes consectutively unless they are up/down by 20+, or someone gets into big foul trouble.

Is far as strategy goes, Calvin is a team by and large that loves to catch and shoot.  I haven't seen many midrange pullup jumpers, and really only snikkers has put his head down to get all the way to the basket (but I've only seen them play 4 times).   Hope has to force Calvin to put the ball on the floor, and not simply catch and shoot.  Force them to make decisions with the ball in their hands.  Conversely, Hope has several players who can pull up for jumpers if needed.  As always rebounding will be key but I think TO's and FT's will play large in the outcome.  Not exactly revolutionary in thinking I know.

[hoopdreams]

It just hit me....

My gut tells me that KVS subs with a purpose, that those players 8, 9, 10 etc... are part of the plan and have roles.  When Hope subs, my gut tells me the those players are out there to give starters a breather. 

This explanation would have saved me lots of time typing, and clear up any confusion on my behalf.  My apologies.

FWIW 76-70 tomorrow

[realist]

Quoting Aljr:  "I don't know of any successful team that has ever played 12-13 guys meaningful minutes.

It may depend on what you mean by guy, and it may depend on what you mean by meaningful minutes, but you should go look at the stat sheet for the Hope womens team.  They have 11 players that are averaging 11mpg+ per game.  Of the 16 on the roster most have played in 15 games, and most average 6+ mpg.

I double dog dare you to claim Hope's women are not a "successful team"

[sac]

Quoting Aljr:  "I don't know of any successful team that has ever played 12-13 guys meaningful minutes.

It may depend on what you mean by guy, and it may depend on what you mean by meaningful minutes, but you should go look at the stat sheet for the Hope womens team.  They have 11 players that are averaging 11mpg+ per game.  Of the 16 on the roster most have played in 15 games, and most average 6+ mpg.

I double dog dare you to claim Hope's women are not a "successful team"

The Hope women's program is a whole other animal, and competition being played has much more to do with playing time.

[Gregory Sager]

Aljr:  Jungling and Niels are included in the 9 roatation for Hope.  I see they have appeared in all 7 conference games and have 9 (+) mpg average.
I do not find evidence that GVW shortens his bench in big games, and I would count Hope's games versus Calvin, Albion, and Olivet in that category.  

My post was in response to Hoopsdreams post in which he complements KVS on his willingness to go 10 or 11 deep.  Again KVS is locked in on a 9 man rotation, and he does not deviate from his normal substitution pattern much over a season.

Imo 9 is not a deep bench.  12 or 13 guys playing in a normal rotation, on a winning team, would be my idea of a deep bench.

Go look at the minutes played for Hope's starters in the Calvin and Olivet games and tell me GVW didn't shorten his bench in those games.

I don't know of any successful team that has ever played 12-13 guys meaningful minutes.

Depends upon whether or not you'd call Grinnell "successful," I suppose. In MWC terms, the Pioneers have certainly been successful many years playing under the Arseneault System. In national D3 terms? Not so much, as Grinnell's never really made a dent in the D3 tourney.

[sac]

Guess we know who the sacred cow is in maroon and gold.


So anyway

MVP's
2009 Reimink--1st in scoring, 5th rebounding
2008 Vanderheide--6th in scoring, 5th rebounding
2007 Cramer--7th in scoring
2006 Crawford--1st in scoring, 1st rebounding
2005 DePree--13th in scoring, 1st rebounding
2004 Phillips--7th in scoring, 8th rebounding
2003 Overbeek--6th in scoring, 1st rebounding
2002 Veenstra--2nd in scoring, 3rd rebounding
2001 Veenstra--1st in scoring, 3rd rebounding
2000 Winkle--2nd in scoring, 6th rebouding

In 10 years only 1 player has led the league in scoring and rebounding and he was rightfully named the leagues MVP and his team finishded 3rd in the league standings.

Crawford averaged 21.4 pts. 10.6 rebs and shot 70.8% from the floor and recorded 8 league double-doubles

McClary is averaging 22.1pts. 11.1 rebs and 53.6% from the floor and has recorded 4 league double-doubles

I never stated Mantel couldn't win the MVP, but at the present time, halfway through the MIAA season I don't see any reason why suggesting Michael McClary is the league's MVP should raise so much protest.

[sac]

The Saturday lineup


Adrian at Trine, 3 p.m. -- Adrian won the first meeting by 6, the Bulldogs have made a nice run at #3 or better in the league, this is one of those important tricky road games


Olivet at Albion, 3 p.m. --Albion crushed Olivet at Cutler 4 weeks ago, the Brits have dropped 3 straight, this is a must win at home for them.  Olivet simply can't drop anymore games

Alma at Kalamazoo, 7:30 p.m. --Kzoo won this one back when everyone thought they were worse than Alma.  Wonder if the pick'ems have reversed from unanimous  Alma to unanimous Kzoo


Calvin at Hope, 3 p.m.

175th meeting, Hope leads 88-86, Hope leads the scoring by 92 points

They have split their two previous meetings this year, both played at Calvin.  Hope by 3 in Nov., Calvin by 9 in Jan.

Goes without saying Hope needs a win to stay in the MIAA race.


There are various ways to follow this one, including an internet video feed.  All links can be found here:
http://hopecalvin.com/men/index.htm