MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[devossed]

Bottom line, I think we've got too many armchair refs that think they can call a better game from the stands and really have no experience of how tough it is to call a perfect game (hint: a perfect game has yet to be called since Dr. Naismith invented the game).

I beg to differ: I think there are 12-14 middle-school girls who would agree that I set the tone early and often, and cautioned them of no shenanigans last Tuesday night...Ernie Cryer would've been pleased.

[realist]

Favorite play of the game.  Mantel steals the ball, and goes 70+ feet for a 2 hand jam. 
Least favorite play of the game.  Mr. Bunn hitting that killer 3.  This proves that Calvin isn't the only team in the Rivalry that makes a great shot at a crucial/critical moment in the game.


Sac:  We get your point that MM is the stat leader at this time.  Our point is that has not been the deciding factor on MVP historically.

[HopeConvert]

The MVP Award debate is always a tough one to resolve. I remember engaging in this debate offline with someone a couple of years ago concerning Isaac Smith, who led the league in almost every statistical category. Obviously Alma would have finished no worse that year than they did with Smith, so it's not exactly clear how "valuable" he was. More to the point, however, his teammates were so mediocre that it gave him a lot more opportunities to score and rebound than he would have had had he been on one of the league's top teams. Had he played for Hope that year, I can't see any way he would have put up those numbers. For that matter, I don't think he would have started.

Let's move forward to this year now. Calvin has, in my opinion, the most balanced team in the league. They have a lot more scoring threats on the floor at any one time than Olivet does. Now you could say this works to McClary's advantage, as teams will likely sag on him a bit more than they would Mantel. But John is probably going to have less scoring opportunities over the course of a game than McClary is, so his numbers likely won't be as high. There are instances where numbers can be useful in deciding these things. I don't think this is one of them as there are too many variables that contribute to the final statistical aggregate. So we are left with other measures, many of them speculative. Which team would suffer a bigger dropoff if that person were not on that team? This is tricky because it's not as if the team would then be left with four players on the floor, so you have to assume some equivalency in the replacement. What would the team's record be without that person? How thorough is that person's contribution to the team's victories? (This would mean, of course, that more victories would weigh in that person's favor.)

While there is a correlation between statistics and value to a team, it is a limited one. Given the inadequacy of statistics alone to decide the question, most observers are reduced to going with what their eyes and hunches tell them. There are many things that factor in to shaping those hunches, including personal allegiances. (This is akin to the great legal scholar Jerome Frank once opining that "whatever produces the judge's hunches makes the law.")

There are, of course, other intangibles we might look at to help determine relative value. In my judgment, Hope's MVP so far has been Chris Nelis, who embodies the old chestnut about "leaving it all on the floor." His play has been good, but his leadership and example have been outstanding. He might not have the best statistical season of any Hope player, but he has been really terrific this year.

There's still a half a season to be played, so we don't need to decide the question yet. I think it's safe to say that Calvin fans and Olivet fans alike wouldn't trade their guy for the other.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

HC - very well said, and I have to say that while I love to debate this, I'm actually quite happy not to have to make the decision of who would win the award, at least most years.

[Preto]

A quick scan of posts that have complaining about officiating or a call  Hope-5 Calvin-4

Thanks for the smile.

[Knightmare]

Bottom line, I think we've got too many armchair refs that think they can call a better game from the stands and really have no experience of how tough it is to call a perfect game (hint: a perfect game has yet to be called since Dr. Naismith invented the game).

I beg to differ: I think there are 12-14 middle-school girls who would agree that I set the tone early and often, and cautioned them of no shenanigans last Tuesday night...Ernie Cryer would've been pleased.

  hahaha.  If I could give karma for that I would but I don't have such powers.

[sac]

After yesterday's win by Carthage over Illinois Wesleyan, the Red Men are in 1st place in the CCIW.

Dec 4  Calvin 72 Carthage 69
Dec 5  Carthage 83 Hope 77 OT

It would be interesting to see these teams match-up now.

[gohope]

After letting yesterday's game sink in a bit, and after reading an article in today's ]Kalamazoo Gazette, it sounds like there might be some "consistency" with the MIAA Officials. Regarding the Kalamazoo vs. Alma game, Starting Forward Sophomore Joe Prepolec, was quoted with some wise words: "You just have to stick with what you do (Prepolec said of Alma's rough play inside). At halftime, my coaches just told me to keep going up strong, keep going into them. It's almost like you have to play like there aren't any refs out there, because you can't expect to get fouls called - you just have to keep going up strong."

[Hopester]

Does anyone know if there is a place where one can rewatch The Game (online or elsewhere)? It would be something I would be very interested in doing.

Thanks

[bojack]

I am a first time poster, but have been keeping up with your forum for about a year now.  I enjoy reading and share your enjoyment of small college basketball.  I am privileged to attend about 4-5 Hope games a year.  I am not a graduate of any MIAA school but simply enjoy watching good local basketball. 

With attending the DeVos since it's opening, I have a question about the attendance reporting that I see on the stats every game.  Every year Hope reports a fieldhouse record for the attendance for the Hope-Calvin game.  This year reporting 3665 in attendance.  When I took the tour of Devos when it opened, our tour guide told us the hope was to have 3000 seats but the reality would be around 2800 after media rows etc. Well, I am uncertain where the difference is from.  I know there was not 600-800 people standing up top while the game saturday was going on.  Everyone was in their seats.

Here is the seating guide for the Devos: 3009 total seats available: according to Hopes website.

http://www.hope.edu/ticketoffice/diagrams.htm

Now understand my point of view...I am an admirer er of Hope College basketball and enjoy watching their games.  Other games I attended this year were Wheaton and Alma.  Wheaton reported 3033 and that place was no more than 2/3 full at best.  Then against Alma they reported 3230 and the endline bleachers were scattered at best...I just don't get it.  If anyone knows something I don't I would appreciate the info.

I understand that there is media, workers, etc... but I don't think employees go on the attendance report but media does.  Again, I love attending games and always will.  I think the Dew Crew and the Hope fans are the most loyal in the MIAA for sure.  I would not worry about such #'s, but when you hang banners in your gym about attendance I would want to make sure #'s aren't embellished.  Sorry if this hits people the wrong way with my 1st post, but I guess I'm wondering if someone knows something I dont.

[hopehoopfan]

I am a first time poster, but have been keeping up with your forum for about a year now.  I enjoy reading and share your enjoyment of small college basketball.  I am privileged to attend about 4-5 Hope games a year.  I am not a graduate of any MIAA school but simply enjoy watching good local basketball. 

With attending the DeVos since it's opening, I have a question about the attendance reporting that I see on the stats every game.  Every year Hope reports a fieldhouse record for the attendance for the Hope-Calvin game.  This year reporting 3665 in attendance.  When I took the tour of Devos when it opened, our tour guide told us the hope was to have 3000 seats but the reality would be around 2800 after media rows etc. Well, I am uncertain where the difference is from.  I know there was not 600-800 people standing up top while the game saturday was going on.  Everyone was in their seats.

Here is the seating guide for the Devos: 3009 total seats available: according to Hopes website.

http://www.hope.edu/ticketoffice/diagrams.htm

Now understand my point of view...I am an admirer er of Hope College basketball and enjoy watching their games.  Other games I attended this year were Wheaton and Alma.  Wheaton reported 3033 and that place was no more than 2/3 full at best.  Then against Alma they reported 3230 and the endline bleachers were scattered at best...I just don't get it.  If anyone knows something I don't I would appreciate the info.

I understand that there is media, workers, etc... but I don't think employees go on the attendance report but media does.  Again, I love attending games and always will.  I think the Dew Crew and the Hope fans are the most loyal in the MIAA for sure.  I would not worry about such #'s, but when you hang banners in your gym about attendance I would want to make sure #'s aren't embellished.  Sorry if this hits people the wrong way with my 1st post, but I guess I'm wondering if someone knows something I dont.

It could very well be that there are a number of season ticket holders that for whatever reason don't make it to that particular game, but since the seats are paid for, they count them. This is also true, and much more evident in pro sports where the numbers always seem inflated. A more accurate number would be a gate count of those who actually enter the fieldhouse. I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers are kept, just not published.

[oldknight]

Does anyone know if there is a place where one can rewatch The Game (online or elsewhere)? It would be something I would be very interested in doing.

I believe it was Faulkner who wrote in Requiem for a Nun, "The past is never dead. It's not even past." Who would have known he had the Calvin/Hope rivalry in mind?

[ziggy]

It could very well be that there are a number of season ticket holders that for whatever reason don't make it to that particular game, but since the seats are paid for, they count them. This is also true, and much more evident in pro sports where the numbers always seem inflated. A more accurate number would be a gate count of those who actually enter the fieldhouse. I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers are kept, just not published.

i.e. 2009-2010 Detroit Lions attendance figures. They call them figures because it takes a lot of figuring to understand.

[bojack]

Thanks...I get the attendance figures have more variables than what simply comes through the gate.  If it is ticket holders and paid tickets, I'm not sure how they get #'s above 3009: their own stated capacity.   It's not a big deal...but I thought I was missing something.

[Pat Coleman]

I forgot to ask earlier, but at some point between the JV and varsity games, I noticed a screen put up on the scoreboard saying "Welcome D3Hoops.com."

Live audio stream -- it was on the front page of D3hoops.com during the game as well.

I watched the game on DirecTV and muted it to listen to our stream, which was actually two seconds ahead of the video. Joe Davis, who called the game, is headed down to Alabama now to be the play-by-play voice of the Double-A Montgomery Biscuits.

He did a great job on the game. We'll miss him.