MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Knightmare]

Standout, it's an interesting enough discussion topic, and I'm having trouble with why you should have been smited for it, too.  There have been posters here who have given up on contributing because of the karma fairies...I hope you don't become one of them.

+k just for having the wherewithall to post your thoughts and questions in the interest of discussion.  After all, this is a basketball discussion board, isn't it!  

No worries,  I actually wasn't even too concerned on whether I got some +k back or not, but just wanted to let someone know that if they're smiting people over that then we should all have a karma rating of -100 or more  .

People if you're going to give someone + or - karma please have a valid logical reason for it and be consistent.  We've got some people that give or take karma on this board as poorly and inconsistently as the refs that everyone is always complaining about  .  I'm going to have to start weekly karma poster performance reviews to go along with our referee performance review at this rate  .

[ziggy]

I was sitting behind the scorer's table at an Aquinas game a couple years ago and noticed the AQ coach wandering far down the sideline to yell at the refs while the game was in play.  I wondered--loud enough, I guess--"where is that coach's box, anyway?"  The AQ coach turned and rather beligerantly said "Anywhere I want!"  It took me aback, and delayed my reaction just enough that I didn't bother to say directly to him, "What are you, 4?"   

Who does he think he is, Tom Izzo?

[HopeConvert]

I too remember the Draayer/GVW play. What would you call unintentional contact that's not inadvertent? As I recall, GVW was actually in the coaches' box when Draayer pulled up in front of him. Glen's contact with him was a reflex, and he knew immediately he had crossed a line. His hand was directly in the middle of Draayer's back and gave him a little shove. I know GVW felt awful about it, and not just because it had the potential to turn the game.

If I also remember correctly, this was the MIAA tournament championship game, which Hope went on to win.

[Knightmare]

I too remember the Draayer/GVW play. What would you call unintentional contact that's not inadvertent? As I recall, GVW was actually in the coaches' box when Draayer pulled up in front of him. Glen's contact with him was a reflex, and he knew immediately he had crossed a line. His hand was directly in the middle of Draayer's back and gave him a little shove. I know GVW felt awful about it, and not just because it had the potential to turn the game.

If I also remember correctly, this was the MIAA tournament championship game, which Hope went on to win.

Glenn may want to have his reflexes checked then at his next yearly physical  .  I have no doubt that he knew right away that he crossed the line but it should never be a reflex to touch the player on the court.   Webster's dictionary defines "reflex" as the "automatic and often inborn response to a stimulus.....".  GVW's been coaching long enough that his reflex reaction should be to automatically jump back from a player near you that is on the court.  I didn't see the play but I'd guess GVW's reaction was somewhat sheepish and embarrassed, correct?

[hope_hoops1]

I would agree with HCG that Peter Bunn has made his way onto the short list for MVP candidates.  He seems to be over the early season injury and has been playing extremely well of late.  He is as about as automatic as you can get from the line, shoots high percentages from the field and is clearly the go to scorer on a team tied for first.  You could argue that his auxilary numbers (rebs, asts, etc.) aren't that great, but those who were in Olivet on Saturday witnessed his defensive ability as well.  I still favor McClary because he is a double-double machine, but if Peter puts up 25+ in a few more games I think I'd have to switch my vote (which I don't actually have).

[Erm Schmigget]

I too remember the Draayer/GVW play. What would you call unintentional contact that's not inadvertent? As I recall, GVW was actually in the coaches' box when Draayer pulled up in front of him. Glen's contact with him was a reflex, and he knew immediately he had crossed a line. His hand was directly in the middle of Draayer's back and gave him a little shove. I know GVW felt awful about it, and not just because it had the potential to turn the game.

If I also remember correctly, this was the MIAA tournament championship game, which Hope went on to win.

Glenn may want to have his reflexes checked then at his next yearly physical  .  I have no doubt that he knew right away that he crossed the line but it should never be a reflex to touch the player on the court.   Webster's dictionary defines "reflex" as the "automatic and often inborn response to a stimulus.....".  GVW's been coaching long enough that his reflex reaction should be to automatically jump back from a player near you that is on the court.  I didn't see the play but I'd guess GVW's reaction was somewhat sheepish and embarrassed, correct?

Correct about the reaction.

As far as reflexes, I think you have to consider context.  Coaches spend alot more time coaching in practice situations, so to put a hand out (not even at arm's length, just barely out) when a person suddenly comes that close would come as a reflex to them just as it would to you or me.  We've all done things and immediately realized we made a mistake.  Coaches are no more exempt from this than the rest of us.  I'm sure he would normally instinctively get out of the way...even more so since that goof.

[realist]

Let me see if I got this right.   Eye witness accounts all seem to agree that Draayer was dribbling, and reportedly dribbled at least once after the contact before the shot.  If Draayer is dribbling the ball to advance up court with a path that puts him in close proximity to the Hope coaching box did he suddenly stop, and back up towards GVW?  Not likely.     Therefore, I am having a hard time figuring out how GVW gets his hand in the middle of a players back that is dribbling by him, shoves him, and this is viewed as "unintentional" or a "reflex".  To make this contact GVW is standing up at the edge of the coaches box, and a player passes by.  Normal reaction would be to get out of the way if he fears contact.  Not to shove the guy from behind or from the side.

I am sure that GVW just got caught up in the heat of the moment.  
That would explain GVW's reaction to what occured.

[NW Hope Fan]

I would agree with HCG that Peter Bunn has made his way onto the short list for MVP candidates.  He seems to be over the early season injury and has been playing extremely well of late.  He is as about as automatic as you can get from the line, shoots high percentages from the field and is clearly the go to scorer on a team tied for first.  You could argue that his auxilary numbers (rebs, asts, etc.) aren't that great, but those who were in Olivet on Saturday witnessed his defensive ability as well.  I still favor McClary because he is a double-double machine, but if Peter puts up 25+ in a few more games I think I'd have to switch my vote (which I don't actually have).

I heard the radio crew mention Peter and MVP in the same breath this weekend, and hadn't thought of it till then. I suppose if Hope ends up tied or winning the league, and Peter continues to play at a high level, he certainly should be considered. I forget, does that distinction come before of after the league championship?

[almcguirejr]

I too remember the Draayer/GVW play. What would you call unintentional contact that's not inadvertent? As I recall, GVW was actually in the coaches' box when Draayer pulled up in front of him. Glen's contact with him was a reflex, and he knew immediately he had crossed a line. His hand was directly in the middle of Draayer's back and gave him a little shove. I know GVW felt awful about it, and not just because it had the potential to turn the game.

If I also remember correctly, this was the MIAA tournament championship game, which Hope went on to win.

Glenn may want to have his reflexes checked then at his next yearly physical  .  I have no doubt that he knew right away that he crossed the line but it should never be a reflex to touch the player on the court.   Webster's dictionary defines "reflex" as the "automatic and often inborn response to a stimulus.....".  GVW's been coaching long enough that his reflex reaction should be to automatically jump back from a player near you that is on the court.  I didn't see the play but I'd guess GVW's reaction was somewhat sheepish and embarrassed, correct?

Correct about the reaction.

As far as reflexes, I think you have to consider context.  Coaches spend alot more time coaching in practice situations, so to put a hand out (not even at arm's length, just barely out) when a person suddenly comes that close would come as a reflex to them just as it would to you or me.  We've all done things and immediately realized we made a mistake.  Coaches are no more exempt from this than the rest of us.  I'm sure he would normally instinctively get out of the way...even more so since that goof.

How many coaches have you seen "reflexively" put their hand in the opposing player's back during a game?

[HopeConvert]

Let me see if I got this right.   Eye witness accounts all seem to agree that Draayer was dribbling, and reportedly dribbled at least once after the contact before the shot.  If Draayer is dribbling the ball to advance up court with a path that puts him in close proximity to the Hope coaching box did he suddenly stop, and back up towards GVW?  Not likely.     Therefore, I am having a hard time figuring out how GVW gets his hand in the middle of a players back that is dribbling by him, shoves him, and this is viewed as "unintentional" or a "reflex".  To make this contact GVW is standing up at the edge of the coaches box, and a player passes by.  Normal reaction would be to get out of the way if he fears contact.  Not to shove the guy from behind or from the side.

I am sure that GVW just got caught up in the heat of the moment.  
That would explain GVW's reaction to what occured.

Actually, the eyewitness accounts are not unanimous on that. My recollection is that Glen made contact with Draayer while the latter was in the act of shooting. He had no opportunity to back off since in the old fieldhouse the bench was right off the court. Draayer, as I recall, pulled up right in front of Glen.

[realist]

HC:  I understand your point.   Perhaps he just nudged Draayer to get a better view of the court?    What in the world was Draayer thinking anyway?   That rules out reflex, and also unintentional or incidental contact.  OK made the point that Calvin might have gotten a break on this play, but it may have been GVW that actually got the break with only getting the T.  

NWH;  If memory is correct we know MVP week of MIAA tournament before the finals.

FWIW:  The past several weeks many posters felt that MM was almost a lock to get MVP because he "has the stats".  He still has the "stats", but a new candidate on a contending team has appeared.  Can someone please explain to me this sudden change of mvp criteria?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Joining the discussion late - but I was an eye witness to the Draayer - GVW contact as well.  Couple of points:

- As I remember the play, Draayer was running down court swinging wide to make himself available for the pass - very close to the out of bounds line.  As he caught the ball, he got close to GVW who reacted to a player coming toward him by putting his hand out (some may call this a reflex) - which he instantly realized would result in a technical (you could see it on his face).

- After the contact with GVW, Draayer did dribble the ball at least once and pulled up behind the 3 point line and made the shot.  

- The moment GVW touched Draayer the play was dead (that's the rule).  Doesn't matter what happened after that, and the awarding of anything other than the technical (2 shots and the ball) was wrong.

[HopeConvert]

Realist: how do you get that from the point I made? That ain't necessarily so.

I think we all agree it was a reflex move on Glen's part, in part created by the fact that Draayer got very close to him. (Contra FDF, I seem to recall Draayer dribbling the ball upcourt, but I'll freely concede memory is an unreliable instrument.) GVW was not, as I remember, on the court.

Maybe Calvin has a tape of it.

[NW Hope Fan]

HC:  I understand your point.   Perhaps he just nudged Draayer to get a better view of the court?    What in the world was Draayer thinking anyway?  That rules out reflex, and also unintentional or incidental contact.  OK made the point that Calvin might have gotten a break on this play, but it may have been GVW that actually got the break with only getting the T.  

NWH;  If memory is correct we know MVP week of MIAA tournament before the finals.

FWIW:  The past several weeks many posters felt that MM was almost a lock to get MVP because he "has the stats".  He still has the "stats", but a new candidate on a contending team has appeared.  Can someone please explain to me this sudden change of mvp criteria?

I for one never piped in on the subject, but FWIW, stats IMO should play a large part, but so should being a contender. Olivet HAD been that, and maybe still could be, but I doubt we wouldn't be having much of a conversation about a stat leader for an 8th place team... If standings tighten up, I for one would hate to be on that committee!

[HopeConvert]

This is what I found doing a search. The first entry is from OK, the second from SAC. I apologize for not being able to get the formatting right. I couldn't call up the page, and had to cut and paste.

[From OK]
A few more thoughts from last night's game--

The T called on Glenn was interesting. As Draayer passed by the Hope bench on his way to setting up the 3 ball he shot and made, Glenn was standing on the floor (just barely) and pointing--presumably to his players. Glenn's hand or finger inadvertantly brushed Draayer as he went by, the shot went in, and the trailing ref never hesitated
in blowing his whistle and pointing to Glenn while making the call. I think Glenn's argument was essentially that he touched Draayer before Draayer ever shot the ball and therefore the T call should nullify the field goal attempt. That's actually a pretty good argument but the ref didn't buy it and it turned into a 5 point play for Calvin.


[From SAC]

First, the Technical. I had no problem with the call. Glenn clearly "touched" Draayer, in an absent-minded and non-aware state that has become more the norm for him the last few years. It wasn't malicious, nor was he even on the court by much (which is one more evidence that Draayer's three-bomb range is so amazing, right Greg Sager?) but it did happen, while the ball was being passed to Draayer, before he took the shot. It was as if Glenn was telling his team to "get him because he's so open." The problem (and the central theme to Glenn's argument) was that Wallace REFUSED to acknowledge it came before the shot. This would've stopped play right away and nullified Draayer's attempt. He was adamant that Glenn touched Draayer after the shot, on his way up the floor. Wallace wouldn't even listen to anything to the contrary, knowing in his own mind he was right. But if that were the case, and it came AFTER the shot, then Calvin should've retained possession on the Tech after the free throws. But they awarded Hope the ball, which inherently signaled that the Tech came before the shot!!!