MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

The often sited masseyratings.com has strength of schedule at......

Hope #84
Calvin #58
Wooster #65

all 3 in the top 20% of D3.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

The often sited masseyratings.com has strength of schedule at......

Hope #84
Calvin #58
Wooster #65

all 3 in the top 20% of D3.

For reference St. Norbert's is 126.

[HopeConvert]

Thanks for doing that FDF. On paper, and not adjusting for SOS, they look pretty even. Two things stand out to me in Hope's favor: blocks and steals. The one thing that seems to stand out in St. Norbert's favor is point differential.

[ziggy]

Thanks for doing that FDF. On paper, and not adjusting for SOS, they look pretty even. Two things stand out to me in Hope's favor: blocks and steals. The one thing that seems to stand out in St. Norbert's favor is point differential.

I would add rebounding for St. Norbert(s)

[RFMichigan]

Calvin only played 4 out of division games........they played Lake Forest, Loras, Carthage and Lewis and Clark.........none of those game count, all are D3 and thats kind of ridiculous.

Well, yes, I agree - all D3 games should count.  But they don't...and it has been this way for years.  And everyone knows going in what the rules are.

  Yes, I know that I know they all don't count, and yes, I know that everyone "knows the rules" going in. But aren't some schools penalized when, with finances being what they are, they're being good stewards monetarily and time-wise (and playing just as competitive games) by playing NAIA schools in a school's relative proximity rather than drive 200 miles one way just to get an "in-region" game that might help you get into the national tournament?

I'll take the states of Michigan and Wisconsin for very rough comparison. An MIAA school (for my knowledge the only DIII schools in the LP of Michigan) must go out of state to get a DIII non-conference game. But for any DIII school in Wisconsin, they can play in-state (and I'm assuming in-region) non-conference games from the WIAC, CCIW, Midwest Conference, or NAthCon. While a drive from Holland to, say, Bluffton, may be just as far as from Carthage to Fon du Lac, it seems that "isolated" DIII conferences are penalized by their isolation. They play NAIA teams because of their location and are then at a disadvantage for it.

Someone who's enlightened please enlighten me.

[KnightSlappy]

Finlandia is in Michigan, and in-region, but that's a long haul.

[RFMichigan]

Finlandia is in Michigan, and in-region, but that's a long haul.

I thought that might be the case. I didn't think I could spell "peninsula" correctly, so I just slipped in the "LP" to stand for "lower peninsula" and show my lack of spelling confidence.

And to think those guys on the CCIW board are speaking in Latin.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Finlandia is in Michigan, and in-region, but that's a long haul.

Actually, due to my endless crusade , I think Finlandia is now classed as West Region (though they might be the only team that is cross-listed).

[Mr. Ypsi]

Calvin only played 4 out of division games........they played Lake Forest, Loras, Carthage and Lewis and Clark.........none of those game count, all are D3 and thats kind of ridiculous.

Well, yes, I agree - all D3 games should count.  But they don't...and it has been this way for years.  And everyone knows going in what the rules are.

  Yes, I know that I know they all don't count, and yes, I know that everyone "knows the rules" going in. But aren't some schools penalized when, with finances being what they are, they're being good stewards monetarily and time-wise (and playing just as competitive games) by playing NAIA schools in a school's relative proximity rather than drive 200 miles one way just to get an "in-region" game that might help you get into the national tournament?

I'll take the states of Michigan and Wisconsin for very rough comparison. An MIAA school (for my knowledge the only DIII schools in the LP of Michigan) must go out of state to get a DIII non-conference game. But for any DIII school in Wisconsin, they can play in-state (and I'm assuming in-region) non-conference games from the WIAC, CCIW, Midwest Conference, or NAthCon. While a drive from Holland to, say, Bluffton, may be just as far as from Carthage to Fon du Lac, it seems that "isolated" DIII conferences are penalized by their isolation. They play NAIA teams because of their location and are then at a disadvantage for it.

Someone who's enlightened please enlighten me.

And for the sake of Michigan (among a few others), that is WHY many of us think all d3 games should count.  Though even that wouldn't be much help to the Texas, So. California, and Oregon/Washington 'islands' - at least the first two 'islands' could have a wider choice of 'snowbirds'.

Unless a Michigan/Chicagoland exemption can be worked out, or schools are willing to travel a bit further, the only solution may be the demise of the NAIA (with it being absorded by d3 and d2) - but, unlike some, I just don't see that happening any time soon.

[Titan Q]

Yes, I know that I know they all don't count, and yes, I know that everyone "knows the rules" going in. But aren't some schools penalized when, with finances being what they are, they're being good stewards monetarily and time-wise (and playing just as competitive games) by playing NAIA schools in a school's relative proximity rather than drive 200 miles one way just to get an "in-region" game that might help you get into the national tournament?

I'll take the states of Michigan and Wisconsin for very rough comparison. An MIAA school (for my knowledge the only DIII schools in the LP of Michigan) must go out of state to get a DIII non-conference game. But for any DIII school in Wisconsin, they can play in-state (and I'm assuming in-region) non-conference games from the WIAC, CCIW, Midwest Conference, or NAthCon. While a drive from Holland to, say, Bluffton, may be just as far as from Carthage to Fon du Lac, it seems that "isolated" DIII conferences are penalized by their isolation. They play NAIA teams because of their location and are then at a disadvantage for it.

Someone who's enlightened please enlighten me.

So let me ask this...it will help me understand this whole issue.  Between the 3 broad reasons for Calvin (and Hope for that matter) not playing more in-region games that I have identified below, how would those in the know assign percentages (that add up to 100)?

1) Finances (cost savings)
2) Academic reasons (minimizing missed classes, etc)
3) "Institutional/basketball program decision" (existing relationships with NAIAs, etc - this one is broad)

My opinion from way outside has always been that it's 90% #3.  I really don't have anything to back that up though other than gut feeling.

In terms of #1 (Finances), I see Division III schools with significantly less financial resources than Calvin (and Hope) traveling to play in-region games.

In terms of #2 (Academic), I see a lot of very good academic institutions in Division III traveling to to play in-region games.  My alma mater, Illinois Wesleyan, is a very good school with a roster full of good students.  IWU made the 275 trek to Hanover a few times in the last 5 years...now the Titans have a similar series going with Manchester (200 miles away).  (And I'm just using the school I am most familiar with as an example...we could all point to a ton of good academic programs that travel.)   So I guess I need to hear more to better understand this one.


If the reason is #3, than it is what it is.  But it seems to get explained by some as 1 & 2, and I struggle sometimes to understand that.  If Calvin just needs 3 more in-region games each year, and if they find home & home opportunities (with each coming to Grand Rapids every other year) with places that aren't too crazy far, it just doesn't seem very tough to pull off.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Yes, I know that I know they all don't count, and yes, I know that everyone "knows the rules" going in. But aren't some schools penalized when, with finances being what they are, they're being good stewards monetarily and time-wise (and playing just as competitive games) by playing NAIA schools in a school's relative proximity rather than drive 200 miles one way just to get an "in-region" game that might help you get into the national tournament?

I'll take the states of Michigan and Wisconsin for very rough comparison. An MIAA school (for my knowledge the only DIII schools in the LP of Michigan) must go out of state to get a DIII non-conference game. But for any DIII school in Wisconsin, they can play in-state (and I'm assuming in-region) non-conference games from the WIAC, CCIW, Midwest Conference, or NAthCon. While a drive from Holland to, say, Bluffton, may be just as far as from Carthage to Fon du Lac, it seems that "isolated" DIII conferences are penalized by their isolation. They play NAIA teams because of their location and are then at a disadvantage for it.

Someone who's enlightened please enlighten me.

So let me ask this...it will help me understand this whole issue.  Between the 3 broad reasons for Calvin (and Hope for that matter) not playing more in-region games that I have identified below, how would those in the know assign percentages (that add up to 100)?

1) Finances (cost savings)
2) Academic reasons (minimizing missed classes, etc)
3) "Institutional/basketball program decision" (existing relationships with NAIAs, etc - this one is broad)

My opinion from way outside has always been that it's 90% #3.  I really don't have anything to back that up though other than gut feeling.

In terms of #1 (Finances), I see Division III schools with significantly less financial resources than Calvin (and Hope) traveling to play in-region games.

In terms of #2 (Academic), I see a lot of very good academic institutions in Division III traveling to to play in-region games.  My alma mater, Illinois Wesleyan, is a very good school with a roster full of good students.  IWU made the 275 trek to Hanover a few times in the last 5 years...now the Titans have a similar series going with Manchester (200 miles away).  (And I'm just using the school I am most familiar with as an example...we could all point to a ton of good academic programs that travel.)   So I guess I need to hear more to better understand this one.


If the reason is #3, than it is what it is.  But it seems to get explained by some as 1 & 2, and I struggle sometimes to understand that.

Disclaimer: I have no unique knowledge of Hope and Calvin's decision making process.

My impression is the same as Titan Q's.  Factor #3 is the main factor governing the scheduling of NAIA foes year after year.

Also as it relates to academics (i.e. missed classes). I think one could argue MIAA players miss just as many classes traveling to Wednesday conference games.  Including JV games and the need to arrive early I think the teams often leave campus between 1 and 3PM, causing players to potentially miss Wednesday afternoon classes. Most non-conference tournaments/games are scheduled around the weekends, which typically means the team could leave after classes Thursday or Friday morning. Now, I realize I have been out of school for a bit but most students do all they can to not have Friday classes and I am sure the basketball players, particularly upperclassman, won't even have Friday classes.

I know I had more Wednesday afternoon classes than Friday classes as a student. And as a senior I never set foot in an academic building on Mon., Wed. or Friday.... I miss college

[HopeConvert]

Finlandia is in Michigan, and in-region, but that's a long haul.

I thought that might be the case. I didn't think I could spell "peninsula" correctly, so I just slipped in the "LP" to stand for "lower peninsula" and show my lack of spelling confidence.

And to think those guys on the CCIW board are speaking in Latin.

[KnightSlappy]

Finlandia is in Michigan, and in-region, but that's a long haul.

Actually, due to my endless crusade , I think Finlandia is now classed as West Region (though they might be the only team that is cross-listed).

Yes, they are in the West region, but all in-state games are always in-region as well.

[HopeConvert]

Finlandia is in Michigan, and in-region, but that's a long haul.

Calvinists as well as Finnish nationalists should be able to get on board with that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8iZWrzHl_I

[KnightSlappy]

In terms of #2 (Academic), I see a lot of very good academic institutions in Division III traveling to to play in-region games.  My alma mater, Illinois Wesleyan, is a very good school with a roster full of good students.  IWU made the 275 trek to Hanover a few times in the last 5 years...now the Titans have a similar series going with Manchester (200 miles away).  (And I'm just using the school I am most familiar with as an example...we could all point to a ton of good academic programs that travel.)   So I guess I need to hear more to better understand this one.

This is the life philosophy I hope to teach my daughter. If others are doing it, it automatically means it's a good think to do.