MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[almcguirejr]

Grand Haven played Rockford in a regional final tonight at Grandville High School. The game had to be moved in the 3rd quarter to Jenison HS because Van Arendonk broke a backboard with a dunk.  I'm guessing there were 2500+ that had to move. Grand Haven won 39-36.

Let's go to the videotape: 

http://www.fox17online.com/news/fox-17-grand-haven-player-shatters-backboard,0,4491392.story

[KnightSlappy]

Knight Slappy, what is your exact criteria?

For example, Michigan and Illinois don't actually border each other unless you could via Lake Michigan borders? (And if that is the case, very clever).

I hate to bring this up (since more than one board poster may have a pick to nit ) but under the law the states along the Great Lakes do border one another. Title to the submerged bottom lands of the Great Lakes came to each state upon their admission to the Union. See Flanders Industries vs State of Michigan, 203 Mich App 15, 512 NW2d 328 (1993). While retaining jurisdiction over maritime and admiralty matters, the federal government has no specific authority over the lake beds. People vs Massey, 137 Mich App 480, 358 NW2d 615 (1984). Title and dominion over actual land covered by the waters of the Great Lakes belong to each state within which those submerged lands are located. Id at 485.

It's always handy to have a lawyer on your side.

This was all I could think of while reading oldknight's post: (first 27 seconds or so) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDEdKzAZgko&feature=related

[KnightSlappy]

Updated my list to include the Michigan-Minnesota border. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 64 teams could be added to Michigan team's in-region slate (not all would be feasible though).

Only New Jersey stands to gain more regional opponents than Michigan, but they're probably already in-region with a very large number of those New York and Pennsylvania schools.

Teams	State	Additional States				Added
8	Connecticut	New York				62
2	DC	Virginia				13
8	Maryland	Virginia	West Virginia			14
38	Massachusetts	New York				62
13	New Jersey	New York	Pennsylvania			115
7	Vermont	New York				62
62	New York	Conn.	Massachusetts	New Jersey	Vermont	63
53	Pennsylvania	Ohio	West Virginia	New Jersey		34
2	Arkansas	Missouri				4
4	Indiana	Illinois				22
1	Kentucky	Illinois	Missouri			26
8	Michigan	Wisconsin	Illinois	Minnesota		64
4	Missouri	Arkansas	Kentucky	Tennessee		6
20	Ohio	Pennsylvania				53
3	Tenn.	Missouri				4
13	Virginia	DC	Maryland			10
1	WV	Maryland	Penn.			60
22	Illinois	Michigan	Indiana	Kentucky		13
24	Wisconsin	Michigan				8
18	Minnesota	Michigan				8

[tniem]

Not to reopen the wounds from the last couple weeks (especially as someone that has only lurked the last couple of years) but even if the regional criteria changed, would Hope or Calvin change who they play? 

Seems to me, with the possible exception of some of the Chicago/Northern Illinois teams, that Hope and Calvin seem pretty happy playing the NAIA competition (and frankly more home games and home tournaments than home-and-home series games).  No concerns there.  As an alum, I get why the school sticks with the Michigan competition, keeps the athletes closer to home and studying, and gets home dates for the folks in West Michigan that love their basketball.  I can support all of that.  But then seems a bit disingenuous  to push for a change in the regional setup.  I am not convinced Hope or Calvin would take advantage of it because at the end of the day the schools have not prioritized Pool C participation. 

Go for it KnightSlappy, if it helps in any way.  I am all for seeing Hope and Calvin both making the tourney year in and year out.  But my outsiders alumni perspective just doesn't seem to show that as an important consideration for the Athletic Departments at either school.

[sac]

Grand Haven played Rockford in a regional final tonight at Grandville High School. The game had to be moved in the 3rd quarter to Jenison HS because Van Arendonk broke a backboard with a dunk.  I'm guessing there were 2500+ that had to move. Grand Haven won 39-36.

Let's go to the videotape: 

http://www.fox17online.com/news/fox-17-grand-haven-player-shatters-backboard,0,4491392.story

Grand Haven moves on to play Kalamazoo Central.  Central dispatched probably the best two Lansing area 'A' teams with relative ease (Lansing Eastern, Holt).

The quarterfinal will be hosted by Lansing Sexton High School..........but like last year, I'm almost positive the game will be played at Lansing Eastern's Don Johnson Fieldhouse.......plenty of good seats available.

[KnightSlappy]

Not to reopen the wounds from the last couple weeks (especially as someone that has only lurked the last couple of years) but even if the regional criteria changed, would Hope or Calvin change who they play? 

Seems to me, with the possible exception of some of the Chicago/Northern Illinois teams, that Hope and Calvin seem pretty happy playing the NAIA competition (and frankly more home games and home tournaments than home-and-home series games).  No concerns there.  As an alum, I get why the school sticks with the Michigan competition, keeps the athletes closer to home and studying, and gets home dates for the folks in West Michigan that love their basketball.  I can support all of that.  But then seems a bit disingenuous  to push for a change in the regional setup.  I am not convinced Hope or Calvin would take advantage of it because at the end of the day the schools have not prioritized Pool C participation. 

Go for it KnightSlappy, if it helps in any way.  I am all for seeing Hope and Calvin both making the tourney year in and year out.  But my outsiders alumni perspective just doesn't seem to show that as an important consideration for the Athletic Departments at either school.

In years past, Calvin has played schools such as Wheaton, Carthage, Lake Forest, Concordia (Wis.), Benedictine, and Rockford.

These schools would all be in-region if the rule changed, so a scheduling change wouldn't have to take place in order for regional games to be added. And since Wheaton and Carthage are yearly games (and as reasonably distanced as any currently in-region matchups) it would add at least two regional games each year.

Only two non-conference "Great Lakes" schools (ONU and Heidelberg) are closer to Calvin than Carthage is.

I guess my main point in all of this is that Wheaton and Carthage (and any number of Northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin teams) are exactly the opponents that D-III should be encouraging. They're as close as anyone in terms of driving time and Michigan, Illinois, and Wisconsin are surely geographically and culturally regional.

[sac]

Finding in-region opponents is not just a Hope/Calvin 'problem'.  The entire MIAA has difficulty finding whatever others feel is the appropriate number.

Adrian--4
Albion--5
Alma--5
Calvin--2*  Hope was in-region
Hope--2*  Calvin was in-region
Kzoo--9
Olivet--3
Trine--9



The longest trip anyone took was about 300 miles..........exceptions, Calvin played ONU in an Arizona tournament, and Trine went to Virginia over the Christmas break.

Trine and Kzoo have 9, but lets face it neither of those programs have been very good the last few seasons.  Is this Trine and Kzoo going out and finding regional games, or is it their opponents looking for 'in-region' wins?


The OAC and NCAC are bigger conferences and automatically have 4 more in-region games built in to their schedules that they don't have to go out and find.  If the MIAA were a 10 team league, we'd have just as many in-region games as everyone else.

[sac]

The NABC named its all-region team

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nabc/genrel/auto_pdf/2010D3All-District.pdf


Congrats to Michael McClary, Peter Bunn and John Mantel.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Finding in-region opponents is not just a Hope/Calvin 'problem'.  The entire MIAA has difficulty finding whatever others feel is the appropriate number.

Adrian--4
Albion--5
Alma--5
Calvin--2*  Hope was in-region
Hope--2*  Calvin was in-region
Kzoo--9
Olivet--3
Trine--9



The longest trip anyone took was about 300 miles..........exceptions, Calvin played ONU in an Arizona tournament, and Trine went to Virginia over the Christmas break.

Trine and Kzoo have 9, but lets face it neither of those programs have been very good the last few seasons.  Is this Trine and Kzoo going out and finding regional games, or is it their opponents looking for 'in-region' wins?


The OAC and NCAC are bigger conferences and automatically have 4 more in-region games built in to their schedules that they don't have to go out and find.  If the MIAA were a 10 team league, we'd have just as many in-region games as everyone else.

Do I hear a rally to expand the MIAA? I would like to see the MIAA poach the Chicago area CCIW teams so I could go see more games.  North Park, Elmhurst, Wheaton, and Augustana. Super-Conference!

[Titan Q]

[Do I hear a rally to expand the MIAA? I would like to see the MIAA poach the Chicago area CCIW teams so I could go see more games.  North Park, Elmhurst, Wheaton, and Augustana. Super-Conference!

Augustana is not in the Chicago area - it's in Rock Island.  North Central is the 4th CCIW Chicago team.

Interestingly, 16 of the last 20 CCIW titles have been won by the 4 non-Chicago schools (Wheaton has won 3 in the last 20 years and Elmhurst 1...that's it for the 4 in the Windy City area.) 

[ziggy]

Do I hear a rally to expand the MIAA? I would like to see the MIAA poach the Chicago area CCIW teams so I could go see more games.  North Park, Elmhurst, Wheaton, and Augustana. Super-Conference!

I think AQ's for conferences with as little as 7 teams is ridiculous but that is the answer to a different question. I wouldn't be opposed to an MIAA expansion.

[Gregory Sager]

I think AQ's for conferences with as little as 7 teams is ridiculous but that is the answer to a different question.

Since D3 apportions championship tournament slots to each sport based upon the 6.5:1 ratio, a seven-team minimum for an AQ is the logical number, rounding upwards.

[Gregory Sager]

I hate to bring this up (since more than one board poster may have a pick to nit ) but under the law the states along the Great Lakes do border one another. Title to the submerged bottom lands of the Great Lakes came to each state upon their admission to the Union. See Flanders Industries vs State of Michigan, 203 Mich App 15, 512 NW2d 328 (1993).

Gosh dang it, that's my propdiddleyoperty at the bottom of the lake, Michiganderinos!

[KnightSlappy]

I think AQ's for conferences with as little as 7 teams is ridiculous but that is the answer to a different question.

Since D3 apportions championship tournament slots to each sport based upon the 6.5:1 ratio, a seven-team minimum for an AQ is the logical number, rounding upwards.

But I don't think the two numbers need to be linked. For an automatic qualification, one could argue that you should have to beat out more than just the access ratio. I'm personally in favor of an eight team minimum, but I don't think I could lead a campaign to change that.

(it's a shame that there haven't been any good tournament games so far today)

[Gregory Sager]

Well, seven is more than 6.5, so it is more than the access ratio.

Honestly, I don't see much difference between a league having seven teams or having eight teams. It appears to me that leagues generally try to get to eight teams when possible for scheduling purposes, anyway. But seven is a fair floor for leagues that are located in areas where D3 schools are thin on the ground (I'm thinking of the GSAC in particular).