MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[oldknight]

I agree it is not all one way or all the other way, just tendencies.  Perhaps you are right that Powell will become that player.  History tells me not to build my hopes up as each time I have done so it did not happen, and in most cases it wasn't because the player lacked the ability to really make things click.  Looking at next years jr's and sr's I don't see the standout guy, and Snikkers seems to have the right mindset to grow into that type role.  Frankly I just don't see KVS relinquishing enough control to allow a player to become effectrive as a floor leader.

I'm curious what seems to make you think KVS is a bit of a control freak (my words, not yours). KVS isn't above criticism but I've never thought of him as a coach unwilling to give his players a level of playing freedom. I'm a regular listener of the Doug Wentworth interviews of VandeStreek and on more than one occasion last year he mentioned that Veltema was one of those players to whom KVS had given the green light to shoot whenever Matt felt comfortable doing so.

[hoopdreams]

piggybacking off of realist, I don't think either coach, GVW or KVS, utilizes their players strengths to their fullest but the coach who can is rare.  There are so many pieces to the puzzle.  Unfortunately for both programs, the puzzle evolves or changes each year, either a little or a lot based on the players on the roster and the coaches have not. Both teams are incredibly predictable on both sides of the ball and that is why most games against one another come down to the last posessions. The team that executes most efficiently often times is more successful regardless of talent. All it takes is an off shooting night or foul trouble and its anyones game.  

if you're playing an out of conference team or a team that you've never played before or rarely (St. Norberts) and you cannot inbounds the ball, underneath your hoop multiple times, you've been scouted well.  If you give up easy hoops on inbounds or don't recognize where shooters are setting up everytime the pg dribble penetrates into the paint, one hasn't scouted well enough.  Or the year before  against U-W when their guards dribbled baseline, or the way you thought you were"forcing" them and they made a pass along the length of the baseline to the corner, then made one extra pass to a wide open wing shooter time and time again?

A team with coaches/assistants who are strong at picking up tendencies and scouting can put together a gameplan that can keep most teams close, at least for a while.  The talent disparity in the MIAA is closing and we will see who the cream of the crop of the coaches are.

[realist]

I agree it is not all one way or all the other way, just tendencies.  Perhaps you are right that Powell will become that player.  History tells me not to build my hopes up as each time I have done so it did not happen, and in most cases it wasn't because the player lacked the ability to really make things click.  Looking at next years jr's and sr's I don't see the standout guy, and Snikkers seems to have the right mindset to grow into that type role.  Frankly I just don't see KVS relinquishing enough control to allow a player to become effectrive as a floor leader.

I'm curious what seems to make you think KVS is a bit of a control freak (my words, not yours). KVS isn't above criticism but I've never thought of him as a coach unwilling to give his players a level of playing freedom. I'm a regular listener of the Doug Wentworth interviews of VandeStreek and on more than one occasion last year he mentioned that Veltema was one of those players to whom KVS had given the green light to shoot whenever Matt felt comfortable doing so.

Giving Veltema the "green light" really implies KVS predetermines who may, and who may not shoot.  Frankly on your statement alone I rest my case that KVS controls things.

[GoKnights68]

2009-10
record 19-9
2008-09
Record: 19-8
2007-08
Record: 16-11
2006-07
Record: 19-10

If you are happy with the above results that is fine with me.  For my part I think the record should have been better, and I base that on the talent that was avialable.
Sac, and others have pointed out that Hope has ended Calvin's season 5 years in a row.  Some of those Hope teams were better than the Calvin team, but not in all 5 of those years.  When the better team does not win it is natural to ask why.
Look at GVW's record against KVS.  Does it tell you anything?  It tells me that GVW has seen so many KVS teams that he can just about "script" the game as well as KVS does.  From my perspective it doesn't require a rocket scientist to figure out a little change might just be worth a try.  Continuing to do the same thing, and expecting different results obviously has not worked.

I guess what I meant to say was I don't think Calvin has really underachieved in regular season conference play the last 5 seasons.  They certainly  have struggled a bit in pre-conference play that hurt their overall record.    Their record would have looked better in '07,'09', and '10 if they got 20 wins instead of 19  

[KnightSlappy]

I'm certainly no D-I hoops expert, but isn't Tom Izzo one of those "system" coaches who predetermines and controls a lot of aspects of the game?

I've often heard Spartan fans call in to sports talk radio in the middle of the season complaining that their team is predictable and that they often fail to win outright league titles.

He certainly has success by fitting players into his system.

[KnightSlappy]

Giving Veltema the "green light" really implies KVS predetermines who may, and who may not shoot.  Frankly on your statement alone I rest my case that KVS controls things.

I doubt you're suggesting that coaches should let players run willy nilly around the court doing whatever they please. All coaches control aspects of the game.

Just watching the games tells me that Brad Schnyders likes to shoot three pointers when he's open, but he doesn't make a good percentage of them. If the coach is trying to get the best out of his available talent, wouldn't he tell Brad not to shoot threes?

Allowing some players to shoot whenever they want (Veltema, Draayer, Griffin) and others to not shoot outside of their range (Mantel, Schnyders) hardy makes one too controlling.

[ziggy]

Giving Veltema the "green light" really implies KVS predetermines who may, and who may not shoot.  Frankly on your statement alone I rest my case that KVS controls things.

I doubt you're suggesting that coaches should let players run willy nilly around the court doing whatever they please. All coaches control aspects of the game.

Just watching the games tells me that Brad Schnyders likes to shoot three pointers when he's open, but he doesn't make a good percentage of them. If the coach is trying to get the best out of his available talent, wouldn't he tell Brad not to shoot threes?

Allowing some players to shoot whenever they want (Veltema, Draayer, Griffin) and others to not shoot outside of their range (Mantel, Schnyders) hardy makes one too controlling.

Derek Griffin and Kyle Trewhella had the ability to create shots for themselves and were allowed to do so. Perhaps Calvin's problem the last couple years has been a lack of players with such abilities rather than a philosophy that discourages it.

There were times this year when Bryan Powell may have missed a three but was applauded by KVS for his aggressiveness and taking the shot in rhythm. I seem to remember discussions about a different coach that has a tendency to have an opposite reaction to the same situation...

[hoopdreams]

just depends on the player(s) taking those shots

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Hope is just as talented as Calvin, and does not underachieve. It just appears to me that over the last couple years Hope has filled out its recruiting class later than Calvin.

Don't confuse a recruit list becoming public with when the recruiting takes place or is completed.   Hope simply does not talk publicly about it as quickly as Calvin does.  Not to mention that Hope has (at least for the past 5 years) been focused on the current season longer than Calvin has.

Besides 2008, do you really think Hope having a longer season has been the reason that Hope recruiting talk happens later?

Not that it matters to me when it occurs, but '06'07,'09, and '10, Hope's season was extended by just a
week compared to Calvin's.  I am no expert on recruiting, so I am curious, FDF, if you think that one extra week really affects message board talk going on in late March and April.

Knowing FDF, I think he was just taking a free (mostly tongue-in-cheek) shot at the Knights.

Ding Ding Ding Ding - we have a winner

[realist]

As a D-1 coach Tom Izzo has the luxury of being able to recruit players that fit the pattern he is looking for.  At the D-3 level the ability to get the proper mix of players one wants it seems to me is a bit more difficult.
There is nothing magical about a 20 win season especially if it happens to a team that should have won 21 or 22 or more.  Looking at MIAA action Calvin has managed to lose some clinkers the past several years.  That is a sign of underachieving.
If a coach that stands on the side lines, stamps his foot, glares at his players, etc. and than yanks them out of the game isn't controlling your standards of control are different than mine.
KS my point is in addition to the players that you mention KVS has had many players that had that ability, but when they made the move, and it didn't work the reaction they faced quickly dimmed the desire to risk further rebuke.  Any player on the floor that has it in his head that the coach is second guessing every move (especially if it is off script) has to have that affect their game.  A wise coach can use a player's undesired actions as a teaching moment, and other coaches seem to use it less positively.

[almcguirejr]

As a D-1 coach Tom Izzo has the luxury of being able to recruit players that fit the pattern he is looking for.  At the D-3 level the ability to get the proper mix of players one wants it seems to me is a bit more difficult.
There is nothing magical about a 20 win season especially if it happens to a team that should have won 21 or 22 or more.  Looking at MIAA action Calvin has managed to lose some clinkers the past several years.  That is a sign of underachieving.
If a coach that stands on the side lines, stamps his foot, glares at his players, etc. and than yanks them out of the game isn't controlling your standards of control are different than mine.
KS my point is in addition to the players that you mention KVS has had many players that had that ability, but when they made the move, and it didn't work the reaction they faced quickly dimmed the desire to risk further rebuke.  Any player on the floor that has it in his head that the coach is second guessing every move (especially if it is off script) has to have that affect their game.  A wise coach can use a player's undesired actions as a teaching moment, and other coaches seem to use it less positively.

Tom Izzo stands on the sidelines and swears at his players when they screw up.  Every coach is controlling (your word.)  Every coach wants it done a certain way.   The foot stomp I think is a reaction to something that has occurred on the floor that has been gone over several times in practice and it wasn't done how it was supposed to be done.  If a player is going to cower every time the coach yells  at him I don't think that player is going to get very far. 

I don't agree with most of your viewpoints.  I think the substitution pattern is a positive for Calvin and gives them an edge late in the game.  It takes a lot of trust to stick with it during some games and I admire KVS for his belief in it. 

I don't agree that Calvin has underachieved.  There have been some disappointing losses (kalamazoo 09) but the last couple of Calvin teams weren't that great.  They won the league and lost the tournament the last 2 years.   KVS usually gives his team an opportunity to win.  That is all you can ask of him.  Players have to execute and have themselves ready to play.

For example some posters expressed the opinion that Veldhouse really didn't have a great senior year.  Perhaps he  just decided it wasn't worth the grief to fight "the system"   I think that comment is assinine.  You really think that in Veldhouse's 4th year he would come to the conclusion to just give up because the coach's sytem is no good?

I think Calvin has "struggled" because of a couple of thin recruiting years.  The last 2 years would have been significantly better if Josh Englesma had stayed with the team.  This year Calvin had Mantel , Veltema, and Rodts with any experience.  KVS added 6 more guys to the mix and got a conference championship out of them. 

[realist]

So we agree to respectfully disagree.
If you are really happy with the results Calvin has had the last few years fine .  For my part I think the end results could have been better based on the talent that was there.  I would suggest that you spend some time next season watching KVS during the course of the game, and than watching the reaction of the players.  It doesn't take a Mentalist to read the non vebal communications that are going on.  
One of the reasons a guy would play ball at the D3 level is because he enjoys the game and has fun doing it.  Watching recent Calvin teams I haven't seen many players that game in game out really look like they are having fun and enjoying what they are doing.  You may think it assinine, (assinine - Stupid, dim-witted, pointless). but Caleb did not seem to be having much fun his sr. year.

It is pointless to compare a D-1 coach, and players to the D-3 level.  

Predicated on poor recruiting yielding poor results I wonder what excuses one will get in several years if/when the results are the same.

Hope 78 starters 141 minutes.  Calvin 74 starters 127 minutes.

Olivet 84 starters 135 minutes.  Calvin 61 starters 108 minutes.

Hope 67 starters 149 minutes.  Calvin 64 starters 136 minutes.

Using strategic subbing really paid big returns (especially late) in those 3 loses.  
Stupid, dim-witted me thought your starters were supposed to be your best players.

[almcguirejr]

Stupid, dim-witted me

I never said you were dim-witted. 

[sac]

Olivet 84 starters 135 minutes.  Calvin 61 starters 108 minutes.

Calvin was pretty much out of that game at halftime,   not a good example.


The other two were close losses.


I've been watching the MIAA closely for 20+ years now, no one has underachieved the last couple years in this league.

[CalKnight60]

Olivet 84 starters 135 minutes.  Calvin 61 starters 108 minutes.

Calvin was pretty much out of that game at halftime,   not a good example.


The other two were close losses.


I've been watching the MIAA closely for 20+ years now, no one has underachieved the last couple years in this league.

I would argue tha Calvin's team of 3 years ago with Griffin, Veldhouse, Mantel and Englesma, along with some good role players probably underachieved at 9-5 in the league.