MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Knightmare]

Just letting folks now that "standout" will now be known as "knightmare".  Wanted something that better conveys my rooting interests and hopefully Calvin will be every other teams knightmare.  Hokey, but really aren't all of our screen names to a certain degree  .

Thanks for the continued great discussion, analysis and general MIAA/DIII bball info.

[Pat Coleman]

Just out of curiosity...how does the Karma thing work?  Because I gained one....literally did not post again and I have somehow lost one.  No big deal at all just wondering how it works.

I would point out, too, that just because you haven't posted again doesn't mean someone else hasn't read a post of yours for the first time.

[realist]

Stevens (Butler's coach) said. "You're going to have to make adjustments, play calls, you're going to have to do things on the fly.

Observers said Stevens was actually seen smiling at and with his players.  Notably absent were: foot stomps, pouty looks, demonstrative gestures and acts, and foul language to name a few.

The above quote was taken from a very lenghty article on Coach Stevens.  It seems coach Stevens is a math nut, and does trend analysis on all his opponents.  Using the trends he uncovers he prepares his team so they know what to anticipate nearly everytime the other team gets the ball.  Actually MSU with it's "system" ball game was a sitting duck for trend analysis, and MSU actually played to Butlers strenght by repeatedly going to slowdown, set plays.

I don't have a problem with running a structured, system game, but a coach should also be prepared with a plan B or a plan C when it becomes obvious the other team knows what you are going to do as well as your own players know it.  At age 33 coach Stevens figured out he could get more from his players by teaching and encouraging them than he could by yelling and demeaning them.  His sideline decorum reminded me very much of Coach Wooden who was reknowed for keeping his cool when everyone else was going nuts.

[Knightmare]

any other recruiting news coming out now that H.S. seasons are over and players are actively making decisions on where to go to at the next level?  Are we still seeing a fair number of recruits being picked up by NAIA schools with the financial packages that they are able to offer?

[Knightmare]

Stevens (Butler's coach) said. "You're going to have to make adjustments, play calls, you're going to have to do things on the fly.

Observers said Stevens was actually seen smiling at and with his players.  Notably absent were: foot stomps, pouty looks, demonstrative gestures and acts, and foul language to name a few.

The above quote was taken from a very lenghty article on Coach Stevens.  It seems coach Stevens is a math nut, and does trend analysis on all his opponents.  Using the trends he uncovers he prepares his team so they know what to anticipate nearly everytime the other team gets the ball.  Actually MSU with it's "system" ball game was a sitting duck for trend analysis, and MSU actually played to Butlers strenght by repeatedly going to slowdown, set plays.

I don't have a problem with running a structured, system game, but a coach should also be prepared with a plan B or a plan C when it becomes obvious the other team knows what you are going to do as well as your own players know it.  At age 33 coach Stevens figured out he could get more from his players by teaching and encouraging them than he could by yelling and demeaning them.  His sideline decorum reminded me very much of Coach Wooden who was reknowed for keeping his cool when everyone else was going nuts.

Not sure I'd classify a 2-pt. loss with a shot to win it at the end and countless missed free throws and other opportunities as a "sitting duck".  Clearly Butler deserves credit and some of the missed opportunites by MSU were a result of Butler but all MSU had to do was shoot free throws better, an area that Butler can't impact or defend, and they would've come out of the game with a win.

All of this talk of MSU playing a strict system is, in my opinion, unfounded. MSU has been employing plans B, C, D, E and F lately with their personnel.  Think back to when Kalin Lucas was healthy and how much MSU ran as a team and then think to how they adapted when he went out injured and they slowed down to play to their current strengths instead of thinking our "system" is to run regardless of Lucas's injury.  Both Kebler and Thornton have been playing much more than earlier in the season.  Seems to me their system was quite adapt at configuring based on what players were or weren't available and what they were capable or most comfortable doing.

[oldknight]

Thoughts on Coach K's decision to have Zoubak miss the last free throw? IMHO, I thought it was a poor choice.  Butler is obviously going to put up a worse shot with Zoubak missing than if he makes the free throw and they can take it out of bounds with the clock stopped, but you're also risking losing the game as opposed to going to overtime.  That said, it worked out for him and he obviously has had a more successful coaching career than any of us here on this board.  But just because it works, doesn't always mean its the smartest decision either.

I was stunned and thought it a foolish decision even before Heywood missed his heave by mere inches. 3.6 seconds is plenty of time to get off a shot in a college men's game. It reminded me of a rec league game in which I played 12 years ago--my last season as an active player. My team was faced with virtually the identical situation as was Duke last night--up one with 2 upcoming free throws. The only difference (besides the stakes and the quality of play) was that there were 2.5 seconds left in that game of long ago. During a timeout I counseled in favor of making both attempts. We made the first but missed the second toss which Kevin Kooiker grabbed and quickly outletted to his brother who took one dribble and her fly from beyond half court. When it swished cleanly through the net there were double foot stomps all around. There is a time to try and miss that free throw when up by 2 (I would say under one second would certainly be such a time) but last night was a clear case of Homer (i.e., Coach K) nodding off.

[sac]

Izzo has about 150 offensive sets...........150

[sac]

any other recruiting news coming out now that H.S. seasons are over and players are actively making decisions on where to go to at the next level?  Are we still seeing a fair number of recruits being picked up by NAIA schools with the financial packages that they are able to offer?

A couple more weeks to the last D1 signing period, then things should pick up considerably.

[Knightmare]

Izzo has about 150 offensive sets...........150

That doesn't sound like that strict of a system guy.  And if he is a system guy, I'm pretty sure I'll take a system that brings 6 final fours in 12 years and if you even want to go back to the beginning of his tenure and rebuilding it'd still come out to 6 final fours in 15 or 16 years.  That's a good enough percentage for me.

Now the big question is how many sets does KVS have  , anybody know?  A reminder, KVS has definitely adapted in the past.  Any one that was at the fieldhouse in 2000 saw Calvin adapt and run MacMurry right out of the gym in the NCAA's and I'd venture to say nobody saw that coming quite like that.

[realist]

I think Tom Izzo did a great job with the MSU team considering everything that happened this year.  There is no question he was able to restructure his team to get max. performance, and I see a plan B, C, etc. during the year.  He definitely did a good job making the necessary changes to fit his available players.

The term "trend analysis" refers to the concept of collecting information and attempting to spot a pattern, or trend, in the information.

Butler did not have to do trend analysis on every MSU game.  They only had to look for the trends in the earlier tournament games to anticipate what MSU was likely to do in various game circumstances.  The way MSU played Butler looked very much like their previous tournament games, and Stevens anticipated that would be the case and prepared his team accordingly.  He had some time to do this.

You correctly point out that MSU did not help their own cause when given the opportunity, and what bigger opportunity could Butler give them than not scoring for over 10 minutes.  

It seems logical to me that a team that does not vary it's game plan plays into the hand of a team that is doing trend analysis.  Part of scouting an opponent is learning what and how they do things.  

[realist]

Izzo has about 150 offensive sets...........150

It is also probably true one can apply the 80/20 rule to these plays.
That would mean MSU would run  30 of those plays 80% of the time.
Not all the sets would necessarily be used with all combinations of players.

KM:  Like the new name.  I have watched the McMurry film many times.  In his post game interview KVS acknowledged that he made a game plan specifically to negate the Indian's press.  It took several minutes of tweaking that game plan before the fun really started. 

FWIW: I am sure GVW and the other MIAA coaches can tell you how many sets KVS uses, as well as when he uses them.  It is one thing to know the sets or patterns or trends and another to have the players to stop them.   What I would like to see is KVS come up with new sets or patterns when it is obvious the old ones are being stopped.

[goodknight]

Stevens (Butler's coach) said. "You're going to have to make adjustments, play calls, you're going to have to do things on the fly.

Observers said Stevens was actually seen smiling at and with his players.  Notably absent were: foot stomps, pouty looks, demonstrative gestures and acts, and foul language to name a few.

The above quote was taken from a very lenghty article on Coach Stevens.  It seems coach Stevens is a math nut, and does trend analysis on all his opponents.  Using the trends he uncovers he prepares his team so they know what to anticipate nearly everytime the other team gets the ball.  Actually MSU with it's "system" ball game was a sitting duck for trend analysis, and MSU actually played to Butlers strenght by repeatedly going to slowdown, set plays.

I don't have a problem with running a structured, system game, but a coach should also be prepared with a plan B or a plan C when it becomes obvious the other team knows what you are going to do as well as your own players know it.  At age 33 coach Stevens figured out he could get more from his players by teaching and encouraging them than he could by yelling and demeaning them.  His sideline decorum reminded me very much of Coach Wooden who was reknowed for keeping his cool when everyone else was going nuts.

It appears that you hold fast to the belief that KVS is a coach who wins (and loses) by intimidation and hectoring and churlish, if not childish, behavior.  Of course, you are entitled to your opinions.  But can you produce a single player in the KVS era (who didn't get cut from the team) who would remotely support your opinion?  I know many players who suited up three or four years for KVS during the past 14 years, all of whom were on the receiving end of a glare or a footstomp, and they uniformly have great respect for his coaching ability and his personal interest and investment in their development as  Christian young men.  Ask Caleb Veldhouse  or Aaron Winkle or John Mantel or Dan Aultman or Jeremy Veenstra.  I've heard every one of them, and their parents, speak very highly of KVS as a recruiter and as a coach/teacher/mentor.

If you can't find a clique of former players who back you up, I would then invite you to consider letting it go.

[northb]

I think Tom Izzo did a great job with the MSU team considering everything that happened this year.  There is no question he was able to restructure his team to get max. performance, and I see a plan B, C, etc. during the year.  He definitely did a good job making the necessary changes to fit his available players.

The term "trend analysis" refers to the concept of collecting information and attempting to spot a pattern, or trend, in the information.

Butler did not have to do trend analysis on every MSU game.  They only had to look for the trends in the earlier tournament games to anticipate what MSU was likely to do in various game circumstances.  The way MSU played Butler looked very much like their previous tournament games, and Stevens anticipated that would be the case and prepared his team accordingly.  He had some time to do this.

You correctly point out that MSU did not help their own cause when given the opportunity, and what bigger opportunity could Butler give them than not scoring for over 10 minutes.  

It seems logical to me that a team that does not vary it's game plan plays into the hand of a team that is doing trend analysis.  Part of scouting an opponent is learning what and how they do things.  

Of course, Izzo is smart enough to know that Stephens does this trend analysis, and
knowing this, would therefore make sure that he does a different set than usual.  Stevens, easily spotting this as a trend when Izzo plays against coaches that do trend analysis would anticipate this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6wqKb8EUxI

[Knightmare]

Izzo has about 150 offensive sets...........150

It is also probably true one can apply the 80/20 rule to these plays.
That would mean MSU would run  30 of those plays 80% of the time.
Not all the sets would necessarily be used with all combinations of players.

KM:  Like the new name.  I have watched the McMurry film many times.  In his post game interview KVS acknowledged that he made a game plan specifically to negate the Indian's press.  It took several minutes of tweaking that game plan before the fun really started.  

FWIW: I am sure GVW and the other MIAA coaches can tell you how many sets KVS uses, as well as when he uses them.  It is one thing to know the sets or patterns or trends and another to have the players to stop them.   What I would like to see is KVS come up with new sets or patterns when it is obvious the old ones are being stopped.

I'd just prefer better recruiting so no "set", new or old alike, could be stopped in the first place.  As big of a Calvin fan as I am I must occasionally acknowledge that regardless of sets Calvin might not have the best team and in that instance it may not matter if it is a new or old set it isn't going to make a difference.

I think the flaw in your argument is that in most cases it isn't what "set" or strategy is used.  It really comes down to the players natural physical abilities and also very importantly the players mental ability to execute, regardless of it being a new or old set.  The bottom line is that a set may not be working, not because the coach was out-coached, but because players are just not executing and in that case it doesn't matter what set or play is used it will be doomed to failure.  There is a big difference between putting a "set" or strategy into place and then carrying out and executing that strategy.  Not all good strategies are executed properly, and that lack of execution doesn't mean it was necessarily a bad strategy.

[Gregory Sager]

Hokey, but really aren't all of our screen names to a certain degree  .

Boy, you said it. In fact, I took as my screen name the one that's printed on my birth certificate. How hokey is that?

(I was originally going to respond to Knightmare's assertion by stomping my foot, but this doesn't appear to be a good moment in the MIAA room's conversational flow for that particular strategy.)