MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[HopeConvert]

What you are saying may be true, but is (also?) irrelevant. This is not a good defensive team, and nothing you said gainsays that judgment. I should think it is pretty clear to most Hope fans that the reason Tanis rode the pine for two years is that he's not a good defensive player and, in the judgment of the previous coach, Tanis' defensive liabilities outweighed his offensive assets.

They lack size, they lack depth, other teams are more athletic .... yeah. Put it all together and it supports the judgment this isn't a good defensive team. Of the injuries and defections, the only one that would have made a difference defensively is Bunn. Venema has size, but no one would ever accuse him of being a defensive dynamo. Given that all judgments have a comparative aspect, what happened in the past isn't irrelevant. It may lack predictive value, but it does indicate that there is a huge drop-off defensively, whatever the reason, between this year's team and the previous 6 years.

Had Trine hit its free throws down the stretch you might think of this a little differently.

[northb]

Hope won yesterday didn't they?  I'm sure no one on the hope sideline was happy giving up 86 points but they did score 91, beat a very good team in their gym, rebounded (literally or figuratively?) from a big defeat at home earlier in the week.

I'm guessing that Trine could not have played any better than they did in the first half, debatable, and I believe hope was still up 1 at halftime.

What this team is doing is pretty amazing.  It has 2 players with significant varsity experience. I do not put Tanis in that group because he might as well have gone on a 2 year mission trip after his freshman season.  They are heavy in sophomores, most were not "good enough" to play varsity last year and played JV (There is a reason they play JV).  Nearly everyone who has ever played or coached college basketball will attest that the 2 year is almost always the most challenging, frustrating and humbling season for a variety of reasons.

They lack size in the post, they are injured- you can tell that Neil and Tanis have been playing injured, now Krombeen too?, they lack experienced depth overall, and something more telling....these other teams, from top to bottom, have become a lot more athletic.  This is an advantage Hope no longer has over the rest of the MIAA.

They are 4 points away from being 10-3 and, after a huge win yesterday, right back in the thick of it.

What Hope did back in 2004, 2000 or 1986 is irrelevant. Fun to look at I suppose but meaningless.

If you have been around the league for any significant length of time, you would know that what teams have done historically has a great deal to do with what they can do this year.

[sac]

Two games into the conference and you can get some wacky stats.

For example, FG% defense.  I'm not sure I've ever seen Hope and Calvin at the bottom of the league.

FIELD GOAL PCT DEFENSE
# Team                  G     FG   FGA   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1.Adrian College......  2     29    90  .322
2.Kalamazoo College...  2     40   111  .360
3.Olivet College......  2     42   114  .368
4.Albion College......  2     49   116  .422
5.Alma College........  2     56   129  .434
6.Trine University....  2     57   123  .463
7.Calvin College......  2     57   119  .479
8.Hope College........  2     63   121  .521



...and then this one.  Look at Hope.  I mean WOW!, they've just been getting torched from the outside in their first two games.

3-POINT FIELD GOAL PCT DEFENSE
# Team                  G     FG   FGA   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1.Albion College......  2      5    31  .161
2.Kalamazoo College...  2      7    30  .233
3.Adrian College......  2      9    35  .257
4.Alma College........  2      9    30  .300
5.Calvin College......  2     13    38  .342
6.Olivet College......  2     12    34  .353
7.Trine University....  2     16    42  .381
8.Hope College........  2     23    37  .622

[realist]

I am upset

I'm more than upset.  

Welcome to my world.
I have taken a beating from fellow Calvin posters that have taken considerable umbrage (offense, annoyance, displeasure) at my posts since early in the season.  
How many years does Calvin need to start the conference at or below .500?  
Now we are at 6-7, and KVS makes the same statement on 1-8-11 he made after games in Nov.  
Something like:  "We have to go back to work and improve.  [What has Calvin been doing in previous games and practices?]  By the end of the year we have a chance to be a really good team, but we're not there yet,"   REALLY!!!!    "Really good" teams don't lose to 3-9 teams making them 4-9.  

Why does a coach watch his team go from a 29-23 lead with 3:06 left in the half to a 10 point deficit (29-39) and not call a time out?   This not the first time this has happened, and I doubt it will be the last.    

Kalamazoo knew exactly what Calvin was going to do, and they were well coached in how to defend the Knights.  

[hoopdreams]

How many of those 3's in the last 2 games were made by opposing players front court players, and how many were made against a zone? SAC that is an amazing stat!!!

Their defense right now is bad and its a collective effort- allowing dribble penetration into the paint, not helping out on baseline penetration-which they give their opponents in hopes of pinning them but it often looks like they're getting "beat", slow on close outs and shot contests, solid but not great boxouts, not recognizing that your full court or 3/4 court pressure doesn't work against teams that can prepare for it.  I cannot believe Coach Neil would put  Ty, a defensive liability on the best guard (scorer) in the MIAA. Certainly there are more/better options on the roster- Logan, Colton, David?.  How about the Ryan Klein effect (tall and long) with Bowser or Snuggs or Holwerda? If Neil can't figure that out, he shouldn't be in charge, correct?

I've been attending Hope games off and on since 1983.  If past seasons were an indicator of present success, K-zoo shouldn't have beaten Calvin yesterday, really never, and Olivet would be a walk in the park.  Other than the past 3 years or whenever Gifford arrived, weren't they almost always bad?  i could be wrong on this but I remember some REALLY bad teams for many years coming out of Olivet.

Could someone please watch the Calvin game again and chart who was defending the shooter each time Calvin scored their 95 and tally up the results?  How many points have been given up in man defense this season compared to when they play zone? That should be an indicator on where Hope defensive deficiencies lie.

Maybe they can coax Kelvin Carter to join this semester and help out defensively on the perimeter.  Is he still around?

[hoopdreams]

suppose I should have started the last post by stating I, in no way, shape or form believe this to be a great defensive team.  I choose to believe that this team is really young and inexperienced and will improve to the point of putting themselves in position to win another MIAA tourney.  Especially this season when 4 or 5 losses in the regular season won't exclude a team  from winning the only important game at this point, the MIAA championship game.  After 1 week, it seems as though it's up in the air for anyone to have.

[Knight2Day]

All this talk about looking at history and it playing a part in the shaping of a program, Calvin usually has a drop off after playing Hope, the past few years they have come in with a .500 or sub .500 record and still manage to win or at least be a top 2 team in the conference. On a similar note, if we're talking about successful programs and what it takes to be successful, I don't think Alma should be giving Calvin any lessons in that department, at least on this board. What's Alma's all time record against Calvin? If it's that easy to beat the Knights, then obviously the Scots haven't done enough to get to the level of it being an easy game for them to win.

[almcguirejr]

Tom Markowski has a good article in the Detroit News on the low quality basketball that is being played at the HS level.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110110/OPINION03/101100341/1049/sports/Fundamentals-fall-out-of-favor-with-high-school-players

[sac]

I was wondering how Kzoo's upset over Calvin would be viewed by Massey's "Least Likely Result"  section.

Least Likely Results

1 12/11 Keuka (406)              52    St Lawrence (298)        51  0.059
2 11/19 Elmira (361)             77 vs Albright (139)           70  0.085
3 11/18 MN Morris (265)          65 at Concordia Mhd ( 34)      63  0.099
4  12/7 NY Maritime (368)        72 at Farmingdale (255)        71  0.114
5  12/3 Pacific OR (240)         65 at Pac Lutheran ( 26)       63  0.125
6 11/20 Frostburg St (216)       56 at St Mary's MD ( 31)       54  0.137
7  12/5 Dallas Univ (384)        78 at SW Univ TX (310)         74  0.150
8 11/28 Loras (154)              63 at WI Platteville ( 42)     61  0.157
9 11/29 Marywood (285)           65 at Keystone (145)           59  0.168
10   1/8 Kalamazoo (215)          73 at Calvin ( 74)             68  0.182



If it were possible to look back at previous MIAA seasons, its pretty likely the two most least likely upsets to occur recently have both involved Kzoo beating Calvin.

2011 Kzoo 73 Calvin 68
2009 Kzoo 68 Calvin 66



Out of curiosity, anyone know the last time K beat Calvin @ Calvin?

[newhopefan]

There is a lot of negative being said about the Hope defense and I certainly agree that they need to get back to how they played against Wheaton and Lake Forest, however I don't think this team should be compared to past hope squads defenses based on points allowed alone.  This team goes a faster pace than past years allowing more shots per game so it seems only reasonable that points would be higher.  I think the better comparison would be point differential.

[ziggy]

Out of curiosity, anyone know the last time K beat Calvin @ Calvin?

1996

[Happy Calvin Guy]

Out of curiosity, anyone know the last time K beat Calvin @ Calvin?

1996

If my memory serves me right that was the final season of the Douma era.  It was not a strong Calvin team that year.

[jspiii]

Tidbits from the Hope College Hoops luncheon:
  In attendance: Coach Neil, players: Bowser, Tanis, Dickerson, Neil & King
1. Avoided talking about Calvin game but had a few clips from the Trine game.
2. 3-point defense: Still working on defensive schemes & showed a couple 1st half Trine desperation shots that went in.
3. Injuries: King: Is ready to contribute when needed.
                  Venema: Still no clearance from doctor & no timetable if he comes back at all. Is riding a stationary bike. Seemed to put in a jab at Venema's rehab commitment.

[hoopdreams]

using past history, not recent history as an indicator or predictor of success/potential success, we can use Olivet as an example.

In the 12 years prior to Gifford coming aboard and bringing instant credibility, Olivet had an overall winning percentage of 38% and a 33% success rate in the MIAA, with exactly 1 winning conference season at 8-6 in 1998.  Based on that, the Comets should win 4 or 5 conference games this season.  Anyone want to take that bet?  

Point differential is another way to compare indeed ( and me likey) but I'm sure those numbers aren't impressive compared to those great teams of yesteryear.

I like to base my teams success, on 3 things- do you win the games you are supposed to win? ( Hope has thus far), season progression, and performing when it counts...in the tourney.  Is your season a success if you run the conference table, then lose in the semi's.  probably don't know what I'm talking about though....  

I know everyone wants to beat Calvin but who was better last Wednesday? Who will be better next month? Maybe in the tourney ? Meeting  in the championship is no longer a given.

Everyone wants to beat the Cornerstones, Grace, and Davenports like the good old days but those teams are exponentially better then history shows (oh what good coaching and scholly money provides), and i don't think their were many Hope fans who thought Hope was going to beat Carthage earlier (wanted to and expected to are completely different).  To lose a heart breaker and come back and beat a good Wheaton team...

Remember how BAD Hope was after 5 or 6 games last year?  They learned some things, developed and turned their season around.  I'm planning on this team doing the same.

[sac]

FG% defense is the best measure of teams defensive abilities.  Hope is the highest I can recall seeing, and is possibly the highest in a couple decades or 3.

Not even including last weeks games, Hope was #361 in FG% Defense out of 403 teams ranked.

Both opponents shot over 50% last week, so this ranking is sure to be even worse this week.