MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[realist]

--Calvin needs an inside presence. 24 of Calvin's 55 field goal attempts were 3's. The box score says points in the paint was  26-24 in favor of Hope, but how many of the 24 points were actual post moves or layups that weren't drives to the basket? Six?

Can someone educate me as to why Shuster does not play inside more?  He is usually the tallest guy on the floor, with an incredible wingspan, yet spends most of his time on the perimeter?  Is he not strong enough to hold position in the paint?  It seems like he would change the other team's defensive scheme alot if he tired to post up everyonce in a while.  He'll get his 3's but then we lose alot inside. 

Duh!!!!   Me thinks he plays the way he is coached.  Second opinion:  He is not the first wasted big man in recent Calvin history.

As HC pointed out how is it Schuster never touched the ball when Hope has 4 guards and Bowser on the floor?  One can only conclude they are poorly trained in court sense or court awareness. 

Does Calvin have difficulty scoring points?  [1]

Does Calvin have difficulty rebounding on the offensive end?  [2]

Is Brent Schuster ineffective as an outside shooter?   [3]

1.  Considering Calvin's record is now 10-9 we know at least 9 games in which they scored an inadequate amount to win.

2.  Rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts.  Some Calvin players are better at it than others, and I would rather see a 6' 10" guy in the paint than a 5' 9" one.

3.  Brent does have a very good 3 point shot, but again his percentage would be much better if he were closer to the basket, like in the paint, and was putting in rebounds.    Just becasue he is reasonably good outside does not mean that is the best or optimal place for him to play. 

[section7]

Maybe to put another way, I'm suggesting that Hope's efforts on the defensive end would lend better to expected three point percentages of (not really my thoughts, but just examples):

1st half: 0.450
2nd half: 0.300

That is to say 0.150 is actual talent/effort, and the remaining 0.180 is noise in the data.

My eyes tell me Hope's defensive efforts in the 2nd half have been better in every MIAA game I've seen but one.

Sac, how many games have you actually attended this year?

I was at Davenport
I was at the Purdue North Central game
I was at the Calvin game in Holland
I was at the Olivet game
I was at the Albion game
I was at the Calvin game

I believe I amply qualified this statement "Hope's defensive efforts in the 2nd half have been better in every MIAA game I've seen but one.", that would mean I was referring to the 4 MIAA games I was able to attend.  I stand by the statment that Hope's defensive 2nd half effort was better in the fashion I stated it originally.

.......and I would say that statistics from boxscores/ and play-by-play from games have pointed to Hope being better in the 2nd half defensively in numerous other games I wasn't able to attend.

Wow, why so defensive.  Just wondered how many games you had a chance to attend this year.  I don't believe I questioned your post, just was curious.  This team has come a long way from that cold evening at Davenport.  Did you get a chance to ride in the heated golf cart at Davenport, sure would be a nice touch for the gray hairs at Devos if Hope would do that?

[ziggy]

Wow, why so defensive.  Just wondered how many games you had a chance to attend this year.  I don't believe I questioned your post, just was curious.  This team has come a long way from that cold evening at Davenport.  Did you get a chance to ride in the heated golf cart at Davenport, sure would be a nice touch for the gray hairs at Devos if Hope would do that?

I think I read it the same way sac read it. Sounded to me like you were trying to be a richard about it.

[Civic Minded]

Maybe to put another way, I'm suggesting that Hope's efforts on the defensive end would lend better to expected three point percentages of (not really my thoughts, but just examples):

1st half: 0.450
2nd half: 0.300

That is to say 0.150 is actual talent/effort, and the remaining 0.180 is noise in the data.

My eyes tell me Hope's defensive efforts in the 2nd half have been better in every MIAA game I've seen but one.

Sac, how many games have you actually attended this year?

I was at Davenport
I was at the Purdue North Central game
I was at the Calvin game in Holland
I was at the Olivet game
I was at the Albion game
I was at the Calvin game

I believe I amply qualified this statement "Hope's defensive efforts in the 2nd half have been better in every MIAA game I've seen but one.", that would mean I was referring to the 4 MIAA games I was able to attend.  I stand by the statment that Hope's defensive 2nd half effort was better in the fashion I stated it originally.

.......and I would say that statistics from boxscores/ and play-by-play from games have pointed to Hope being better in the 2nd half defensively in numerous other games I wasn't able to attend.

Wow, why so defensive.  Just wondered how many games you had a chance to attend this year.  I don't believe I questioned your post, just was curious.  This team has come a long way from that cold evening at Davenport.  Did you get a chance to ride in the heated golf cart at Davenport, sure would be a nice touch for the gray hairs at Devos if Hope would do that?

If I may interject, I think your wording of the question would make anyone feel defensive -- "How many games have you actually attended this year?"  It is easy to be misread.  Perhaps if your intent was not to be accusitory, you might have worded your question more like "Hey, just curious; how many games have you attended?"  Leave out the word "actually" and the tone changes greatly.  FWIW.

Just seeing Ziggy's post.  Ditto.

[realist]

Right but these intagible efforts probably only explain somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.080 to 0.150 of the 0.332 difference in the percentages.

My point is that the actual difference in the defense probably (definitely) isn't as big as the numbers make it look.

Just comparing the first Hope v Calvin game to the second, and having experienced both from a first-person perspective, it is not wrong to say that Hope's defense was a major factor in its absence (first 3 halves) and its presence (4th half).  Not all outcomes can be explained away with statistics, I'm sorry.  To say that one game's outcome was due to a "simple regression to a mean" as you put it.  Ask any of the coaches or players and I bet they would not point to a simple regression to the mean as the main difference in these two games.

Sports are not driven by statistics alone.  Unless I'm misinterpreting the intent of your posts, you seem to be missing the point of the contest.  I will put forth my efforts against yours and we will see who comes out the victor.  The statistics that come out of that are the product, not the engine.  They are fluid, changing with every contest.  After enough contests you might be more able to recognize which of us is overall better than the other, but we will still compete again because the outcome the next time around is still uncertain.  Statistics point to general truths and help us understand them, but they do not completely define them.  Why is one team often considered better than the other?  Because their stats would indicate so.  But when the statistical underdog emerges as the victor, we see there is more to the contest than numbers.  You have to actually make the effort.

+k from me for an awesome, well articulated post.  Amen brother

I will add a second + karma, and amen.

[KnightSlappy]

--Calvin needs an inside presence. 24 of Calvin's 55 field goal attempts were 3's. The box score says points in the paint was  26-24 in favor of Hope, but how many of the 24 points were actual post moves or layups that weren't drives to the basket? Six?

Can someone educate me as to why Shuster does not play inside more?  He is usually the tallest guy on the floor, with an incredible wingspan, yet spends most of his time on the perimeter?  Is he not strong enough to hold position in the paint?  It seems like he would change the other team's defensive scheme alot if he tired to post up everyonce in a while.  He'll get his 3's but then we lose alot inside. 

Duh!!!!   Me thinks he plays the way he is coached.  Second opinion:  He is not the first wasted big man in recent Calvin history.

As HC pointed out how is it Schuster never touched the ball when Hope has 4 guards and Bowser on the floor?  One can only conclude they are poorly trained in court sense or court awareness. 

Does Calvin have difficulty scoring points?  [1]

Does Calvin have difficulty rebounding on the offensive end?  [2]

Is Brent Schuster ineffective as an outside shooter?   [3]

1.  Considering Calvin's record is now 10-9 we know at least 9 games in which they scored an inadequate amount to win.

2.  Rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts.  Some Calvin players are better at it than others, and I would rather see a 6' 10" guy in the paint than a 5' 9" one.

3.  Brent does have a very good 3 point shot, but again his percentage would be much better if he were closer to the basket, like in the paint, and was putting in rebounds.    Just becasue he is reasonably good outside does not mean that is the best or optimal place for him to play. 

#1. I'll take the smiley-winkey to mean that you're slightly sarcastic with your response and that a 75.4 ppg average doesn't scream "we need to find more ways to score." They could score more, but perhaps there are also problems on the defensive end.

#2. So, since they're already stong on the offensive glass, moving him closer to the basket does not appear to be immediately beneficial.

#3.  Right, but you get 50% more point for making a three, so strict percentage doesn't mean much. Brent is 40-82 (0.488) in his two point attempts and 28-65 (.431) in three point attempts which is equivalent (in terms of points scored) to shooting .646 from two point range. His current mix yeilds an eFG% of .558, which I feel is pretty good.

[sac]

Wow, why so defensive.  Just wondered how many games you had a chance to attend this year.  I don't believe I questioned your post, just was curious.  This team has come a long way from that cold evening at Davenport.  Did you get a chance to ride in the heated golf cart at Davenport, sure would be a nice touch for the gray hairs at Devos if Hope would do that?

I probably read it based more on past posting history, which even section7 has admitted in the past is "controversial".

So to answer it a different way, I've only been able to attend 6 Hope games.  Distance, money, health, and other issues I won't get into have kept me from seeing the Dutchmen more regularly.  I do miss being able to watch a team develop from start to end, that's always been my favorite part of watching Hope basketball.  Everything makes a lot more sense when you're able to watch a team do that.  I have plans to see Hope's remaining away games for sure and I may be able to sneak over to Holland for Albion or Olivet, and I will make a strong effort to see the MIAA semi's and Championship game.


The positive is I've been able to slip down to Olivet and watch a couple really good games, and of course Michael McClary.  Its nice to see other MIAA teams without the context of Hope being the other team, and see how different things feel.  I've wished a few times this year I could be in 3 or 4 places at once.  

In other years I would have for sure been at the Olivet/Albion game tonight, but I think I'll stay at home and watch on the 'net.



....and where I parked at Davenport would be like parking at the old Hart & Cooley building at DeVos, so yes the golf carts are a nice touch.

[hoopdreams]

Erm was much more articulate about the point I was repeatedly trying to make the other day.  Kudos to you!  

Although Hope seems to be in the drivers seat at this point,  this conference tourney in a couple weeks could be something to behold, an epic battle from beginning to end.  

Unless Bowser or MM, endure an unlikely slump, I think we're looking at a co-MVP situation.  It's impossible to argue against either, although I have my own opinion on the matter.  Most valuable is a no-brainer up to this point

[realist]

--Calvin needs an inside presence. 24 of Calvin's 55 field goal attempts were 3's. The box score says points in the paint was  26-24 in favor of Hope, but how many of the 24 points were actual post moves or layups that weren't drives to the basket? Six?

Can someone educate me as to why Shuster does not play inside more?  He is usually the tallest guy on the floor, with an incredible wingspan, yet spends most of his time on the perimeter?  Is he not strong enough to hold position in the paint?  It seems like he would change the other team's defensive scheme alot if he tired to post up everyonce in a while.  He'll get his 3's but then we lose alot inside. 

Duh!!!!   Me thinks he plays the way he is coached.  Second opinion:  He is not the first wasted big man in recent Calvin history.

As HC pointed out how is it Schuster never touched the ball when Hope has 4 guards and Bowser on the floor?  One can only conclude they are poorly trained in court sense or court awareness. 

Does Calvin have difficulty scoring points?  [1]

Does Calvin have difficulty rebounding on the offensive end?  [2]

Is Brent Schuster ineffective as an outside shooter?   [3]

1.  Considering Calvin's record is now 10-9 we know at least 9 games in which they scored an inadequate amount to win.

2.  Rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts.  Some Calvin players are better at it than others, and I would rather see a 6' 10" guy in the paint than a 5' 9" one.

3.  Brent does have a very good 3 point shot, but again his percentage would be much better if he were closer to the basket, like in the paint, and was putting in rebounds.    Just becasue he is reasonably good outside does not mean that is the best or optimal place for him to play. 

#1. I'll take the smiley-winkey to mean that you're slightly sarcastic with your response and that a 75.4 ppg average doesn't scream "we need to find more ways to score." They could score more, but perhaps there are also problems on the defensive end.

#2. So, since they're already stong on the offensive glass, moving him closer to the basket does not appear to be immediately beneficial.

#3.  Right, but you get 50% more point for making a three, so strict percentage doesn't mean much. Brent is 40-82 (0.488) in his two point attempts and 28-65 (.431) in three point attempts which is equivalent (in terms of points scored) to shooting .646 from two point range. His current mix yeilds an eFG% of .558, which I feel is pretty good.

#2.  Nice try, but a quick check of the 2010-2011 stats shows me Calvin has 237 offensive rebounds, and Calvin's opponents have 407 defensive rebounds.   I never said Calvin was strong on the offensive glass.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.  I said " rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts."   This is reflected in Calvin out rebounding opponents 746- 629.

#3.  If Brent stayed in the paint his number of offensive rebounds would be better than it is out on the arc, and his rebounds and put backs should improve his 2 pt. percentage. 

[Pat Coleman]

Wow, why so defensive.  Just wondered how many games you had a chance to attend this year.  I don't believe I questioned your post, just was curious.  This team has come a long way from that cold evening at Davenport.  Did you get a chance to ride in the heated golf cart at Davenport, sure would be a nice touch for the gray hairs at Devos if Hope would do that?

I think I read it the same way sac read it. Sounded to me like you were trying to be a richard about it.

"actually" is the key word here, I'll agree.

[KnightSlappy]

Does Calvin have difficulty scoring points?  [1]

Does Calvin have difficulty rebounding on the offensive end?  [2]

Is Brent Schuster ineffective as an outside shooter?   [3]

1.  Considering Calvin's record is now 10-9 we know at least 9 games in which they scored an inadequate amount to win.

2.  Rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts.  Some Calvin players are better at it than others, and I would rather see a 6' 10" guy in the paint than a 5' 9" one.

3.  Brent does have a very good 3 point shot, but again his percentage would be much better if he were closer to the basket, like in the paint, and was putting in rebounds.    Just becasue he is reasonably good outside does not mean that is the best or optimal place for him to play. 

#1. I'll take the smiley-winkey to mean that you're slightly sarcastic with your response and that a 75.4 ppg average doesn't scream "we need to find more ways to score." They could score more, but perhaps there are also problems on the defensive end.

#2. So, since they're already stong on the offensive glass, moving him closer to the basket does not appear to be immediately beneficial.

#3.  Right, but you get 50% more point for making a three, so strict percentage doesn't mean much. Brent is 40-82 (0.488) in his two point attempts and 28-65 (.431) in three point attempts which is equivalent (in terms of points scored) to shooting .646 from two point range. His current mix yeilds an eFG% of .558, which I feel is pretty good.

#2.  Nice try, but a quick check of the 2010-2011 stats shows me Calvin has 237 offensive rebounds, and Calvin's opponents have 407 defensive rebounds.   I never said Calvin was strong on the offensive glass.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.  I said " rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts."   This is reflected in Calvin out rebounding opponents 746- 629.

#3.  If Brent stayed in the paint his number of offensive rebounds would be better than it is out on the arc, and his rebounds and put backs should improve his 2 pt. percentage. 

#2. Sorry, I just took it for granted that you would realize that getting 36.8% of the rebounds on offense was indeed quite strong.

#3. Gotcha. So Calvin should put him on the block in the hopes that he turns out to be better down there than McClary (.530) or Prepolec (.561)?

[HopeConvert]

Does Calvin have difficulty scoring points?  [1]

Does Calvin have difficulty rebounding on the offensive end?  [2]

Is Brent Schuster ineffective as an outside shooter?   [3]

1.  Considering Calvin's record is now 10-9 we know at least 9 games in which they scored an inadequate amount to win.

2.  Rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts.  Some Calvin players are better at it than others, and I would rather see a 6' 10" guy in the paint than a 5' 9" one.

3.  Brent does have a very good 3 point shot, but again his percentage would be much better if he were closer to the basket, like in the paint, and was putting in rebounds.    Just becasue he is reasonably good outside does not mean that is the best or optimal place for him to play. 

#1. I'll take the smiley-winkey to mean that you're slightly sarcastic with your response and that a 75.4 ppg average doesn't scream "we need to find more ways to score." They could score more, but perhaps there are also problems on the defensive end.

#2. So, since they're already stong on the offensive glass, moving him closer to the basket does not appear to be immediately beneficial.

#3.  Right, but you get 50% more point for making a three, so strict percentage doesn't mean much. Brent is 40-82 (0.488) in his two point attempts and 28-65 (.431) in three point attempts which is equivalent (in terms of points scored) to shooting .646 from two point range. His current mix yeilds an eFG% of .558, which I feel is pretty good.

#2.  Nice try, but a quick check of the 2010-2011 stats shows me Calvin has 237 offensive rebounds, and Calvin's opponents have 407 defensive rebounds.   I never said Calvin was strong on the offensive glass.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.  I said " rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts."   This is reflected in Calvin out rebounding opponents 746- 629.

#3.  If Brent stayed in the paint his number of offensive rebounds would be better than it is out on the arc, and his rebounds and put backs should improve his 2 pt. percentage. 

#2. Sorry, I just took it for granted that you would realize that getting 36.8% of the rebounds on offense was indeed quite strong.

#3. Gotcha. So Calvin should put him on the block in the hopes that he turns out to be better down there than McClary (.530) or Prepolec (.561)?

Not necessarily. But basketball is all about exploiting matchups. At that point of the game, with the defense Hope had on the floor, I was surprised Calvin didn't try to get Schuster the ball on the blocks. You're aggregating data, and that's fine, and Schuster is an effective outside shooter, but that might not be the best strategy at a given time. And then there's the issue how it fits best into a team concept. When Prepolec gets the ball low, he opens the floor for the rest of his team.

[ziggy]

Does Calvin have difficulty scoring points?  [1]

Does Calvin have difficulty rebounding on the offensive end?  [2]

Is Brent Schuster ineffective as an outside shooter?   [3]

1.  Considering Calvin's record is now 10-9 we know at least 9 games in which they scored an inadequate amount to win.

2.  Rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts.  Some Calvin players are better at it than others, and I would rather see a 6' 10" guy in the paint than a 5' 9" one.

3.  Brent does have a very good 3 point shot, but again his percentage would be much better if he were closer to the basket, like in the paint, and was putting in rebounds.    Just becasue he is reasonably good outside does not mean that is the best or optimal place for him to play. 

#1. I'll take the smiley-winkey to mean that you're slightly sarcastic with your response and that a 75.4 ppg average doesn't scream "we need to find more ways to score." They could score more, but perhaps there are also problems on the defensive end.

#2. So, since they're already stong on the offensive glass, moving him closer to the basket does not appear to be immediately beneficial.

#3.  Right, but you get 50% more point for making a three, so strict percentage doesn't mean much. Brent is 40-82 (0.488) in his two point attempts and 28-65 (.431) in three point attempts which is equivalent (in terms of points scored) to shooting .646 from two point range. His current mix yeilds an eFG% of .558, which I feel is pretty good.

#2.  Nice try, but a quick check of the 2010-2011 stats shows me Calvin has 237 offensive rebounds, and Calvin's opponents have 407 defensive rebounds.   I never said Calvin was strong on the offensive glass.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.  I said " rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts."   This is reflected in Calvin out rebounding opponents 746- 629.

#3.  If Brent stayed in the paint his number of offensive rebounds would be better than it is out on the arc, and his rebounds and put backs should improve his 2 pt. percentage. 

#2. Sorry, I just took it for granted that you would realize that getting 36.8% of the rebounds on offense was indeed quite strong.

#3. Gotcha. So Calvin should put him on the block in the hopes that he turns out to be better down there than McClary (.530) or Prepolec (.561)?

Not necessarily. But basketball is all about exploiting matchups. At that point of the game, with the defense Hope had on the floor, I was surprised Calvin didn't try to get Schuster the ball on the blocks. You're aggregating data, and that's fine, and Schuster is an effective outside shooter, but that might not be the best strategy at a given time. And then there's the issue how it fits best into a team concept. When Prepolec gets the ball low, he opens the floor for the rest of his team.

A 6-10 player with deep range is a matchup that can be exploited, too. I'm sure West Virginia fans had the same "complaints" about Kevin Pittsnogle and the way he was used because the common opinion is that tall guys should play down low. Let's not forget that a skilled shooter that can release the ball that high is a big time mismatch.

[HopeConvert]

Does Calvin have difficulty scoring points?  [1]

Does Calvin have difficulty rebounding on the offensive end?  [2]

Is Brent Schuster ineffective as an outside shooter?   [3]

1.  Considering Calvin's record is now 10-9 we know at least 9 games in which they scored an inadequate amount to win.

2.  Rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts.  Some Calvin players are better at it than others, and I would rather see a 6' 10" guy in the paint than a 5' 9" one.

3.  Brent does have a very good 3 point shot, but again his percentage would be much better if he were closer to the basket, like in the paint, and was putting in rebounds.    Just becasue he is reasonably good outside does not mean that is the best or optimal place for him to play. 

#1. I'll take the smiley-winkey to mean that you're slightly sarcastic with your response and that a 75.4 ppg average doesn't scream "we need to find more ways to score." They could score more, but perhaps there are also problems on the defensive end.

#2. So, since they're already stong on the offensive glass, moving him closer to the basket does not appear to be immediately beneficial.

#3.  Right, but you get 50% more point for making a three, so strict percentage doesn't mean much. Brent is 40-82 (0.488) in his two point attempts and 28-65 (.431) in three point attempts which is equivalent (in terms of points scored) to shooting .646 from two point range. His current mix yeilds an eFG% of .558, which I feel is pretty good.

#2.  Nice try, but a quick check of the 2010-2011 stats shows me Calvin has 237 offensive rebounds, and Calvin's opponents have 407 defensive rebounds.   I never said Calvin was strong on the offensive glass.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.  I said " rebounding has been one of Calvin's strenghts."   This is reflected in Calvin out rebounding opponents 746- 629.

#3.  If Brent stayed in the paint his number of offensive rebounds would be better than it is out on the arc, and his rebounds and put backs should improve his 2 pt. percentage. 

#2. Sorry, I just took it for granted that you would realize that getting 36.8% of the rebounds on offense was indeed quite strong.

#3. Gotcha. So Calvin should put him on the block in the hopes that he turns out to be better down there than McClary (.530) or Prepolec (.561)?

Not necessarily. But basketball is all about exploiting matchups. At that point of the game, with the defense Hope had on the floor, I was surprised Calvin didn't try to get Schuster the ball on the blocks. You're aggregating data, and that's fine, and Schuster is an effective outside shooter, but that might not be the best strategy at a given time. And then there's the issue how it fits best into a team concept. When Prepolec gets the ball low, he opens the floor for the rest of his team.

A 6-10 player with deep range is a matchup that can be exploited, too. I'm sure West Virginia fans had the same "complaints" about Kevin Pittsnogle and the way he was used because the common opinion is that tall guys should play down low. Let's not forget that a skilled shooter that can release the ball that high is a big time mismatch.

Yep. You're right. But WV figured out a way to make sure Pittsnoggle touched the ball.

[Erm Schmigget]

A 6-10 player with deep range is a matchup that can be exploited, too. I'm sure West Virginia fans had the same "complaints" about Kevin Pittsnogle and the way he was used because the common opinion is that tall guys should play down low. Let's not forget that a skilled shooter that can release the ball that high is a big time mismatch.

+k for finding a way to slip in a name like "Pittsnogle" to the discussion.