MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Dutchmen 4 Life]

They've upped the expected snowfall totals in Lansing to 14" and have started comparing things to 1978.  This is not good.

I'm not expecting any basketball tomorrow night.

They've already canceled the Rochester at Kzoo womens game for tonight and its not even snowing right now.

According to the MIAA website, all games have been postponed until 7:30 Thursday. 

[KnightSlappy]

Does this mean you are satisfied with the men's basketball teams record since the VNA has opened? 

I am (43-21, 33-12 heading into this season)

We all knew this team was young and would struggle. Heck, we predicted this record before the season began (15 wins still looks very attainable, doesn't it?).

[Erm Schmigget]

Does this mean you are satisfied with the men's basketball teams record since the VNA has opened? 

I am (43-21, 33-12 heading into this season)

We all knew this team was young and would struggle. Heck, we predicted this record before the season began (15 wins still looks very attainable, doesn't it?).

If you look at it this way:

@ VNA: 23-11, 4-4 this year

is it as satisfying?

I'm not trying to be a Richard (as we seem to put it now), just pointing to what I believed realist to be saying.  Realist, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

[KnightSlappy]

Does this mean you are satisfied with the men's basketball teams record since the VNA has opened? 

I am (43-21, 33-12 heading into this season)

We all knew this team was young and would struggle. Heck, we predicted this record before the season began (15 wins still looks very attainable, doesn't it?).

If you look at it this way:

@ VNA: 23-11, 4-4 this year

is it as satisfying?

I'm not trying to be a Richard (as we seem to put it now), just pointing to what I believed realist to be saying.  Realist, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

What if we look at MIAA play only?

Calvin @ VNA: 16-3 (0.842)

is it as dissatisfying?

and FWIW, Hope's MIAA home record over this time is 15-3 (0.833).

[arena]

Two MIAA championships are nice, but not as satisfying as a for sure tournament bid.  When was the last time Calvin had one of those?

[KnightSlappy]

Two MIAA championships are nice, but not as satisfying as a for sure tournament bid.  When was the last time Calvin had one of those?

'06-'07

[sac]

Comparing Hope and Calvin's home records since their respective arena's opened is apples to oranges.

Hope was a top 5 or 10 D3 team in 2006, 2007 and 2008 its first 3 years in DeVos.  Calvin has been good and won the MIAA these last two seasons but they've been far from a top 10 program since VNA opened.

Maybe comparing Hope's last 2 year's plus this one would be a better comparison.


Hope

2009 14-2  6-1
2010 12-4  6-1  *the Hope website has them 14-2 which is incorrect
2011  6-2   4-1
-------------------
32-8  .800 in all games
16-3  .842


Which means Hope and Calvin have the exact same MIAA record at home, and a 3 game difference in non-conference losses.

These 3 years Hope and Calvin have been very similar in overall talent and ability, there just hasn't been a lot of difference between the two teams.  IMO this is a fair comparison.

(just a quick review, the only home loss by Calvin I can see that might be considered bad was Aquinas this year, otherwise I believe they've all been to pretty good teams)

[realist]

Does this mean you are satisfied with the men's basketball teams record since the VNA has opened?  

I am (43-21, 33-12 heading into this season)
We all knew this team was young and would struggle. Heck, we {YOU} predicted this record before the season began (15 wins still looks very attainable, doesn't it?).

If you look at it this way:

@ VNA: 23-11, 4-4 this year

is it as satisfying?

I'm not trying to be a Richard (as we seem to put it now), just pointing to what I believed realist to be saying.  Realist, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

Thanks Erm.   My point exactly.  Frankly I think 4-4, and 23-11 is embarassing to say the least.  My inital point was to contrast that with Hope's record at the De Vos, which is considerably better.  Not an embarassment.

Calvin's recent record:  2009-10 Record: 19-9; 2008-09 Record: 19-8;
2007-08; Record: 16-11 2006-07 Record: 19-10.  
Now I am asked if I will be happy with a 15 WIN season for Calvin. H... NO.  Calvin posters keep telling me how talented this team is, than why should I settle for mediocre performance?

If other Calvin posters are happy with the above record that is fine with me.    
IMHO the above record is embassing and disappointing.
Considering all the things that Calvin has available to offer to students, and to student athletes, and the value they receive why should they, and we settle for a mediocre performance.  
If other posters are happy with KVS's coaching and his record that also is fine with me.  
Personally I can find many weaknesses in his coaching, and unlike others am not afraid to say it when he has a bad game or when his coaching or lack thereof, IMO costs Calvin a W they should have gotten.  A team coming into a game poorly prepared should reflect back on the coaching.  Poorly manged court awareness, and losing composure at the end of the game should reflect back on the coaching.  
Don't hold KVS accountable if you don't want.  Fine by me.  Just don't expect me to sit quietly by, and take another swig of the kool-aid because IMO it doesn't have to be this way.  I have nothing against KVS.  I just don't think he is a Hall of Fame coach.  Nice guy yes, but great coach no.

If several of you took the time to read my posts before getting your panties in a bunch you would realize my point was "advocating" for a change at Calvin would be a waste of time.   At least I acknowledge the situation for what it is.  Don't like it, don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

Sac:  I really don't think any team under .500 or more realistically under .650 qualfies as a "pretty good team".    32-8 is also markedly better than 23-11. 

[sac]

According to the MIAA website, all games have been postponed until 7:30 Thursday. 

Not surprised at all


Adrian and Olivet's week just got a lot tougher.

Adrian:  host Olivet and Albion
Olivet:   @ Adrian, host Calvin

That's a pretty tough task with 2 days in between, let alone 1.

[knights2000]

Calvin's administration seems to value the "non basketball character building blah blah blah"  more than they do winning games so one should not waste anytime even contemplating a RichRod like fate in this situation.

Sadly it is commom to use this type of sop to cover abysmal performance.

Sop:  "  A sop is a piece of bread soaked in a liquid."
Abysmal  "extremely or hopelessly bad"

When one compares the w/l ratio of the home team in theDe Voss versus the VNA it is considerable.  It is strange to think that losing a game somehow is better at building character than winning the same game, but that is pap one gets.  

Even on tv it looked like Hope had as much character at the end of the game, frankly much more, than Calvin. 

One of the most ridiculous pieces of crap I've read.  That's quite an accomplishemnt based on your other postings.

Does this mean you are satisfied with the men's basketball teams record since the VNA has opened? 

I'm satisfied with 2 MIAA championships in the last 2 years there. 

I'm dissatisfied with statements like "even on tv it looked like Hope had more character at he end of the game."   Where do you come up with that BS?
I don't think a Hope fan or Calvin fan that was there had any thought like that.  Hope got some momentum and played well.  Calvin didn't.

You seem to be advocating for KVS's dismissal.  He's won 3 championships in five years.  I'm sure he's disappointed that they haven't been to the tournament.  You calling their performance abysmal is a head scratcher.

Let's not forget too that this is the same man who won the National Championship in 2000, and was one Rochester buzzer-beater away from the title game again in 2005. Sure, his record as of late may not be what some Calvin fans are looking for, but there is no doubt IMO that he is a coach that is very capable of winning.

[ziggy]

Does this mean you are satisfied with the men's basketball teams record since the VNA has opened? 

I am (43-21, 33-12 heading into this season)
We all knew this team was young and would struggle. Heck, we {YOU} predicted this record before the season began (15 wins still looks very attainable, doesn't it?).

If you look at it this way:

@ VNA: 23-11, 4-4 this year

is it as satisfying?

I'm not trying to be a Richard (as we seem to put it now), just pointing to what I believed realist to be saying.  Realist, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

Thanks Erm.   My point exactly.  Frankly I think 4-4, and 23-11 is embarassing to say the least.  My inital point was to contrast that with Hope's record at the De Vos, which is considerably better.  Not an embarassment.

Calvin's recent record:  2009-10 Record: 19-9; 2008-09 Record: 19-8;
2007-08; Record: 16-11 2006-07 Record: 19-10.  
Now I am asked if I will be happy with a 15 WIN season for Calvin. H... NO.  Calvin posters keep telling me how talented this team is, than why should I settle for mediocre performance?

If other Calvin posters are happy with the above record that is fine with me.    
IMHO the above record is embassing and disappointing.
Considering all the things that Calvin has available to offer to students, and to student athletes, and the value they receive why should they, and we settle for a mediocre performance.  
If other posters are happy with KV's coaching and his record that also is fine with me.  
Personally I can find many weaknesses in his coaching, and unlike others am not afraid to say it when he has a bad game or when his coaching or lack thereof, IMO costs Calvin a W they should have gotten.  A team coming into a game poorly prepared should reflect back on the coaching.  Poorly manged court awareness, and losing composure at the end of the game should reflect back on the coaching.  
Don't hold KVS accountable if you don't want.  Fine by me.  Just don't expect me to sit quietly by, and take another swig of the kool-aid because IMO it doesn't have to be this way.  I have nothing against KVS.  I just don't think he is not a Hall of Fame coach.  Nice guy yes, but great coach no.

If several of you took the time to read my posts before getting your panties in a bunch you would realize my point was "advocating" for a change at Calvin would be a waste of time.   At least I acknowledge the situation for what it is.  Don't like it, don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

If there was a team that came into Saturday's game unprepared it certainly wasn't Calvin. Disappointment in the way the game ended is warranted but you can't try to make both points.

I understand your argument about this season as a whole but I also happen to believe that Calvin's 2005 Final Four run reflects back on coaching as well.

[Happy Calvin Guy]

Calvin's administration seems to value the "non basketball character building blah blah blah"  more than they do winning games

I would love to have both an undefeated record on the court and a coach/program that produced young men of high character.  And, I think it's definitely possible to achieve both, we've proved it right here at Calvin.  But, if I had to place priority on one or the other, I'd take character in a heartbeat.  Certainly wouldn't relegate it to "blah blah blah" status, especially if we truly want to live out the values of our alma mater.

And I definitely don't think anyone loses for the purpose of building character, or somehow thinks that losing is a noble pursuit.  That wouldn't be consistent with our values either.

Valuing winning over character leads to exactly the intended result.  See USC or any $EC school for exhibits in this.  A few championship rings maybe, but lose their selves in the process.  I appreciate KVS's success on the court (nat'l title, final four, multiple MIAA titles, etc) and I definitely appreciate his commitment to running a program with integrity and producing men of character, even if we have 10-loss seasons on occasion.

[sflzman]

Straight off the MIAA site.

Wednesday games are all postponed due to the blizzard warnings...

[hoopdreams]

Anytime a team loses a game or two, lets one slip away, or is perceived to be underachieving, the blame naturally gets thrown squarely on the coaches shoulders.  Right or wrong, it always has and will continue to be. 

FWIW- I have never heard anything negative about KVS, period.  From current players to former, officials and high school coaches alike, he is well respected.  been referred to as a "players coach" by many.

It is the athletes responsibility to execute the game plan on both sides of the ball for 40 minutes, which neither team did.  All a coach can do once play begins is call timeout to possibly "right the ship" but neither Neil or KVS attempted any shots, rebounded, defended or threw bad passes. All of the game stuff falls squarely on the players shoulders, including execution of whatever offense or defense is called.  Both teams run almost the same, identical offenses every year, same inbounds plays, etc.... Especially going from round one to the second round....all is the same, lame.

I don't think either coach, outcoached the other but I do think 1 team played with more composure and poise (from a distance KVS seems like the model of composure, not like the screaming, foot stomping antics of another coach who shall be left nameless)  Calvin's senior leaders were silent (I know that's their demeanor), their emotional guys let their emotions get the best of them and lost some composure, and some of their underclassmen played like.....timid underclassmen.

If I'm a Hope supporter, Calvin is still 1 of 2 teams I would like to miss in the tourney, the other being Kalamazoo

[realist]

Calvin's administration seems to value the "non basketball character building blah blah blah"  more than they do winning games

I would love to have both an undefeated record on the court and a coach/program that produced young men of high character.  And, I think it's definitely possible to achieve both, we've proved it right here at Calvin.  But, if I had to place priority on one or the other, I'd take character in a heartbeat.  Certainly wouldn't relegate it to "blah blah blah" status, especially if we truly want to live out the values of our alma mater.

And I definitely don't think anyone loses for the purpose of building character, or somehow thinks that losing is a noble pursuit.  That wouldn't be consistent with our values either.

Valuing winning over character leads to exactly the intended result.  See USC or any $EC school for exhibits in this.  A few championship rings maybe, but lose their selves in the process.  I appreciate KVS's success on the court (nat'l title, final four, multiple MIAA titles, etc) and I definitely appreciate his commitment to running a program with integrity and producing men of character, even if we have 10-loss seasons on occasion.

Why so defensive?  I said it all is my opinion.  If you differ, fine with me. There is a middle ground.  Winning and producing quality people are not mutually exclusive as you point out.  However, using producing "quality people" as a crutch to mask over accepting mediocrity is disingenuous (": lacking in candor; also : giving a false appearance of simple frankness : calculating") at best.