MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[OC_SID]

Olivet is closed tomorrow, too. I got word about 7:15 tonight. Once I heard Wednesday's games were postponed, I started getting things together to work from home.

[wiz]

Calvin's administration seems to value the "non basketball character building blah blah blah"  more than they do winning games

I would love to have both an undefeated record on the court and a coach/program that produced young men of high character.  And, I think it's definitely possible to achieve both, we've proved it right here at Calvin.  But, if I had to place priority on one or the other, I'd take character in a heartbeat.  Certainly wouldn't relegate it to "blah blah blah" status, especially if we truly want to live out the values of our alma mater.

And I definitely don't think anyone loses for the purpose of building character, or somehow thinks that losing is a noble pursuit.  That wouldn't be consistent with our values either.

Valuing winning over character leads to exactly the intended result.  See USC or any $EC school for exhibits in this.  A few championship rings maybe, but lose their selves in the process.  I appreciate KVS's success on the court (nat'l title, final four, multiple MIAA titles, etc) and I definitely appreciate his commitment to running a program with integrity and producing men of character, even if we have 10-loss seasons on occasion.

Why so defensive?  I said it all is my opinion.  If you differ fine with me.  Please don't give me the crap that valuing winning automaically leads to a USC situation.  There is a middle ground.  Winning and producing quality people are not mutually exclusive as you point out.  However, using producing "quality people" as a crutch to mask over accepting mediocrity is disingenuous (": lacking in candor; also : giving a false appearance of simple frankness : calculating") at best.

What is your expectation?

An expectation is what one envisions for the future, so I think you would need to look at previous posts from realist to find out his expectations.  His post of November 12 was "At this point my guess is Hope wins the MIAA with 12 wins.  Calvin and Olivet come in 11-3 or 10-4 but hard to predict order as much depends on how quickly Calvin's youngsters gell. "

Apparently things are much as realist expected. 

[WAlum]

From the OAC board:
With so many opinions on here... I am curious to find out how would all the OAC followers rate the OAC coaches from top to bottom?

What about the miaa coaches?

[sflzman]

5:55 a.m. -

Due to severe weather, the College will be closed on Wednesday, Feb. 2. All classes are cancelled, all offices are closed.

President Abernathy

4th time in Alma's 124 years the campus has been closed

[Knightmare]

Well here's to hoping that all of you posters in southern Michigan are getting dug out from the snowstorm and for safe travels to jobs etc.  We got 4-6 inches in Northern MI (Traverse City area) but nothing like what hit you guys.  Hopefully everyone is hunkered down or starting to dig out now.  Everyone stay safe.

[realist]

Let's match the performance of the cross country program.  Quality people, and a nationally competitve program.  If cross country can do it, why can't other sports?  Listening to the runners I get the impression many of them come to Calvin because it is know as a quality/winning program.

First off, I'd respond that comparing cross-country to being nationally competitive in basketball is comparing apples to oranges.  I don't think that cross-country has nearly the depth of competition that the sport of basketball has.  To expect a team to go to the final four every year or every other year is quite unrealistic.  I don't think that there are any programs that are doing that.  Michigan State in division 1 is the closest example and they are clearly having a down year.  Sports can  be very cyclical in nature, you've got to have the right combination of players come along at the right time to experience the level of success that you desire and that success does have a finite time period.  Look at the Florida Gators back-to-back national champions who have no fell on harder times.  In college athletics there is a quick turnover of student-athletes and that can result in the occasional down year or two.

Your level of expectation may not be entirely realistic, even the Calvin Men's cross country team that you speak of is on a 5 year national championship drought right now.  Should cross country coach Brian Diemer, a former Olympian, also be let go because of lack of a national championship over the last 5 years and counting?

Thank you for responding to my post.  I gave what I honestly think as my answer to what I perceived to be a legit question.
For your sake I hope the cross country people don't get wind of your posting that you don't think their sport is as competitive as men's basketball.  If you ever attended a MIAA meet or regional meet or national event I think that woulld quickly change your opinion about the leveel of competion.  Just because a sport does not get the marquee attention of bball does not mean that it is unimportant or second rate.
I am well aware what the cross country program has done, and that is specifically why I choose it as my apple.  I don't expect the cross country program to win a banner every year, but I do expect that program to represent the college well.  The cross country program does well because it expects to do well.  The coaches take the individuals that come into their program, and develop and grow them as necessary to make sure they put the most competitive group of runners possible on the course.  I also think some runners come to Calvin becuase they know the coaches do a great job, and also because they want to be part of a nationally know competitive program.
I do not see any reason to give special quarter to men's basketball as if this sport is somehow either sacred, special, or unique.  This past fall men's:  cross country, golf, and soceer along with women's: cross country, soceer, and volley ball (national championship) teams all qualified for NCAA tournament play.  Some for the first time, and some for second or third or multiple times.  In fact, if memory serves correct, only women's golf of all the fall sports didn't qualify for post conference play.  That tells me that Calvin is very capable of recruiting and attracting a wide variety of athletes in a wide variety of competitive sports to come to Calvin.  If you missed the women's volleyball come from behind victory in the semifinal game you missed one of the best all time Calvin sporting events.  Well coached, well disciplined athletes that played every serve, and never gave up in the face of daunting odds.  In the championship game Calvin jumped out to an early lead, but unlike the bbal tream on Sat. they were able to withstand the charge the opponet mounted.  They knew the challenge was coming, and they were equal to the task.   I don't know what the future holds for the volleyball program, but I am pretty sure they will build on this years experience.  Men's soceeer made it to the national finals in 09, and lost to Messiah which has won something like 9 or 10 championships in a row.  So yes, it is possible for a team to repeat year after year.  Mount Union does it in football with regularity, and Kalamzoo is a force every year in tennis.  Just to name a few.
My answer should indicate that my expectations are high.  Why set them low?  If you don't want to place the best, most competitive team possible on the field why play?  
The reason I listed the records going back to 06 was to show that the basketball team has obviously plateaued.  No, worse than that, based on what is likely to be the record at the end of this year it is actually trending down.  If they can't win the talent they have now I see no reason to expect that magically next year they will put it all together.  Yes, it could happen, but if it does then, why can't it now?
Rather than comparing Calvin to Div 1 teams like MSU (talk about apples and oranges) why don't you take the time to compare us to teams like Wash. U, Il Wes., Wooster, Amherst, Williams, St. Thomas.  most of of the U WI schools.  Year in, and year out they have competitive teams in quite a number of sports.

[Pat Coleman]

For your sake I hope the cross country people don't get wind of your posting that you don't think their sport is as competitive as men's basketball.  If you ever attended a MIAA meet or regional meet or national event I think that woulld quickly change your opinion about the leveel of competion.  Just because a sport does not get the marquee attention of bball does not mean that it is unimportant or second rate.

Here's where I think the difference lies -- on basically every Division III campus with men, men's basketball is a sport that receives focus. The coach is someone who has a basketball coaching background, etc.

In some other sports, and I would say cross country definitely qualifies, you may have a coach for whom cross country is a second sport.

Clearly this is NOT an across-the-board truth regarding cross country. But I would believe it's fair to say there are campuses on which cross country is not taken seriously. If there are a few where men's basketball is not taken seriously, it's a very low number.

Not sure if I explained it very well but that's the basic premise.

[arena]

Let's match the performance of the cross country program.  Quality people, and a nationally competitve program.  If cross country can do it, why can't other sports?  Listening to the runners I get the impression many of them come to Calvin because it is know as a quality/winning program.

First off, I'd respond that comparing cross-country to being nationally competitive in basketball is comparing apples to oranges.  I don't think that cross-country has nearly the depth of competition that the sport of basketball has.  To expect a team to go to the final four every year or every other year is quite unrealistic.  I don't think that there are any programs that are doing that.  Michigan State in division 1 is the closest example and they are clearly having a down year.  Sports can  be very cyclical in nature, you've got to have the right combination of players come along at the right time to experience the level of success that you desire and that success does have a finite time period.  Look at the Florida Gators back-to-back national champions who have no fell on harder times.  In college athletics there is a quick turnover of student-athletes and that can result in the occasional down year or two.

Your level of expectation may not be entirely realistic, even the Calvin Men's cross country team that you speak of is on a 5 year national championship drought right now.  Should cross country coach Brian Diemer, a former Olympian, also be let go because of lack of a national championship over the last 5 years and counting?

Thank you for responding to my post.  I gave what I honestly think as my answer to what I perceived to be a legit question.
For your sake I hope the cross country people don't get wind of your posting that you don't think their sport is as competitive as men's basketball.  If you ever attended a MIAA meet or regional meet or national event I think that woulld quickly change your opinion about the leveel of competion.  Just because a sport does not get the marquee attention of bball does not mean that it is unimportant or second rate.
I am well aware what the cross country program has done, and that is specifically why I choose it as my apple.  I don't expect the cross country program to win a banner every year, but I do expect that program to represent the college well.  The cross country program does well because it expects to do well.  The coaches take the individuals that come into their program, and develop and grow them as necessary to make sure they put the most competitive group of runners possible on the course.  I also think some runners come to Calvin becuase they know the coaches do a great job, and also because they want to be part of a nationally know competitive program.
I do not see any reason to give special quarter to men's basketball as if this sport is somehow either sacred, special, or unique.  This past fall men's:  cross country, golf, and soceer along with women's: cross country, soceer, and volley ball (national championship) teams all qualified for NCAA tournament play.  Some for the first time, and some for second or third or multiple times.  In fact, if memory serves correct, only women's golf of all the fall sports didn't qualify for post conference play.  That tells me that Calvin is very capable of recruiting and attracting a wide variety of athletes in a wide variety of competitive sports to come to Calvin.  If you missed the women's volleyball come from behind victory in the semifinal game you missed one of the best all time Calvin sporting events.  Well coached, well disciplined athletes that played every serve, and never gave up in the face of daunting odds.  In the championship game Calvin jumped out to an early lead, but unlike the bbal tream on Sat. they were able to withstand the charge the opponet mounted.  They knew the challenge was coming, and they were equal to the task.   I don't know what the future holds for the volleyball program, but I am pretty sure they will build on this years experience.  Men's soceeer made it to the national finals in 09, and lost to Messiah which has won something like 9 or 10 championships in a row.  So yes, it is possible for a team to repeat year after year.  Mount Union does it in football with regularity, and Kalamzoo is a force every year in tennis.  Just to name a few.
My answer should indicate that my expectations are high.  Why set them low?  If you don't want to place the best, most competitive team possible on the field why play?  
The reason I listed the records going back to 06 was to show that the basketball team has obviously plateaued.  No, worse than that, based on what is likely to be the record at the end of this year it is actually trending down.  If they can't win the talent they have now I see no reason to expect that magically next year they will put it all together.  Yes, it could happen, but if it does then, why can't it now?
Rather than comparing Calvin to Div 1 teams like MSU (talk about apples and oranges) why don't you take the time to compare us to teams like Wash. U, Il Wes., Wooster, Amherst, Williams, St. Thomas.  most of of the U WI schools.  Year in, and year out they have competitive teams in quite a number of sports.

Wonderful post.  I have similar thoughts, but you made them so much better than I could have.  I expect excellence.  Your post is excellent.

[Knightmare]

Let's match the performance of the cross country program.  Quality people, and a nationally competitve program.  If cross country can do it, why can't other sports?  Listening to the runners I get the impression many of them come to Calvin because it is know as a quality/winning program.

First off, I'd respond that comparing cross-country to being nationally competitive in basketball is comparing apples to oranges.  I don't think that cross-country has nearly the depth of competition that the sport of basketball has.  To expect a team to go to the final four every year or every other year is quite unrealistic.  I don't think that there are any programs that are doing that.  Michigan State in division 1 is the closest example and they are clearly having a down year.  Sports can  be very cyclical in nature, you've got to have the right combination of players come along at the right time to experience the level of success that you desire and that success does have a finite time period.  Look at the Florida Gators back-to-back national champions who have no fell on harder times.  In college athletics there is a quick turnover of student-athletes and that can result in the occasional down year or two.

Your level of expectation may not be entirely realistic, even the Calvin Men's cross country team that you speak of is on a 5 year national championship drought right now.  Should cross country coach Brian Diemer, a former Olympian, also be let go because of lack of a national championship over the last 5 years and counting?

Thank you for responding to my post.  I gave what I honestly think as my answer to what I perceived to be a legit question.
For your sake I hope the cross country people don't get wind of your posting that you don't think their sport is as competitive as men's basketball.  If you ever attended a MIAA meet or regional meet or national event I think that woulld quickly change your opinion about the leveel of competion.  Just because a sport does not get the marquee attention of bball does not mean that it is unimportant or second rate.
I am well aware what the cross country program has done, and that is specifically why I choose it as my apple.  I don't expect the cross country program to win a banner every year, but I do expect that program to represent the college well.  The cross country program does well because it expects to do well.  The coaches take the individuals that come into their program, and develop and grow them as necessary to make sure they put the most competitive group of runners possible on the course.  I also think some runners come to Calvin becuase they know the coaches do a great job, and also because they want to be part of a nationally know competitive program.
I do not see any reason to give special quarter to men's basketball as if this sport is somehow either sacred, special, or unique.  This past fall men's:  cross country, golf, and soceer along with women's: cross country, soceer, and volley ball (national championship) teams all qualified for NCAA tournament play.  Some for the first time, and some for second or third or multiple times.  In fact, if memory serves correct, only women's golf of all the fall sports didn't qualify for post conference play.  That tells me that Calvin is very capable of recruiting and attracting a wide variety of athletes in a wide variety of competitive sports to come to Calvin.  If you missed the women's volleyball come from behind victory in the semifinal game you missed one of the best all time Calvin sporting events.  Well coached, well disciplined athletes that played every serve, and never gave up in the face of daunting odds.  In the championship game Calvin jumped out to an early lead, but unlike the bbal tream on Sat. they were able to withstand the charge the opponet mounted.  They knew the challenge was coming, and they were equal to the task.   I don't know what the future holds for the volleyball program, but I am pretty sure they will build on this years experience.  Men's soceeer made it to the national finals in 09, and lost to Messiah which has won something like 9 or 10 championships in a row.  So yes, it is possible for a team to repeat year after year.  Mount Union does it in football with regularity, and Kalamzoo is a force every year in tennis.  Just to name a few.
My answer should indicate that my expectations are high.  Why set them low?  If you don't want to place the best, most competitive team possible on the field why play?  
The reason I listed the records going back to 06 was to show that the basketball team has obviously plateaued.  No, worse than that, based on what is likely to be the record at the end of this year it is actually trending down.  If they can't win the talent they have now I see no reason to expect that magically next year they will put it all together.  Yes, it could happen, but if it does then, why can't it now?
Rather than comparing Calvin to Div 1 teams like MSU (talk about apples and oranges) why don't you take the time to compare us to teams like Wash. U, Il Wes., Wooster, Amherst, Williams, St. Thomas.  most of of the U WI schools.  Year in, and year out they have competitive teams in quite a number of sports.

A couple things.  First, I don't believe that cross country is a 2nd rate sport, I've had friends that went through Calvin's cross country program and spoke glowingly of it.  I only said, and still do believe, that there is not the same quality depth of participants as in the sport of basketball or another way of looking at it is that there is much more parity in the distribution of basketball talent than in the sport of cross country.  This creates difficulties in the sport of basketball of making the tournament every single year for years on end.  I think maybe the problem is the time frame that you are identifying as being the plateau or down period.  4-5 years isn't a very long sample size and I'd bet that if you looked at the history of most any program (even the top ones) you could identify a few down periods of 3-6 years.  I think there can be various reasons for this.  One being that, in general, most D3 recruiting is done in a fairly close geographic area to an institution.  All it takes is a couple down years of the local high school talent to affect the local colleges that are fighting for the top players available to them.  And geographic areas definitely experience an ebb and flow in the quality of local High School athletes graduating in any given year or couple year window.  The MIAA schools are also in a unique position of having multiple quality NAIA schools and programs close by that are recruiting many of the same kids and have the luxury of scholarships.  I don't think there are many D3's out there that have as stiff of recruiting competition as in the West Michigan area.

I don't necessarily disagree with your expectations but feel maybe there is a rush to judgment based on too small of a time frame.  Now if in another few years the tournament drought is still continuing and nothing has changed then I might feel differently but I think a national championship and another final four run with multiple other tournament appearances over the last 10+ years affords a coach the luxury of more than 4-5 years (years where they still have been very competitive and right there on the tournament bubble, not 5-15 record type seasons) before job security is called into question.

Thank you too for a quite civil discussion, I enjoy that and appreciate it.

[Knight2Day]

The talent has never been a problem at Calvin, especially this year (yes they're young but the talent is there) with the bringing in of 2 great recruiting classes. I think that the downturn comes when people go from wanting National Championships to (as seen in discussions earlier this season) being happy with winning the regular season conference title. People lower their expectations continually and go from wanting to have nationally competitive every year, to being happy with nationally competitive teams maybe once every 4 or 5 years...So where does Calvin and KVS go from here? One thing is for sure, the whole "scheduled subbing" is the first thing that needs to get tossed out to metaphorical window...

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Interesting discussions.  I would agree with both Pat and Knightmare that the overall level and depth of competition in cross country is just not at the same level as basketball.

What I think is relevant to what Calvin fans should/can expect from the basketball team on a yearly basis is the built in recruiting advantage I believe Calvin has over every other MIAA team including Hope.  Calvin's connection to the CRC high schools in Western Michigan and beyond in my view seems to be a great deal stronger than any connection Hope has with RCA high schools or the other MIAA schools have. To a small degree, I believe Calvin has a head start recruiting year in and year out. I understand why a Calvin fan would be frustrated by the performance on the court based on this advantage. 

[KnightSlappy]

I just looked at the winning percentage of the Calvin MBB team since KVS arrived.

A linear fit to the data shows that Calvin is trending downward by 0.0075 percentage points per season. The data has a correlation coefficient ('r') of 0.28 (which would be considered 'a small correlation').

I'm assumed a 15-12 record for this season.

[calvin_grad]

What I think is relevant to what Calvin fans should/can expect from the basketball team on a yearly basis is the built in recruiting advantage I believe Calvin has over every other MIAA team including Hope.  Calvin's connection to the CRC high schools in Western Michigan and beyond in my view seems to be a great deal stronger than any connection Hope has with RCA high schools or the other MIAA schools have. To a small degree, I believe Calvin has a head start recruiting year in and year out. I understand why a Calvin fan would be frustrated by the performance on the court based on this advantage. 

I've always been curious about this as a Calvin grad and I would love to get fans of other schools to comment.  Yes, Calvin certainly has a advantage over other MIAA schools in recruiting CRC high schools.  Doesn't this somewhat work the other way, too, though?  Because of what Calvin is perceived as out in the "community", aren't they at a bit of a disadvantage in recruiting the public schools?  Doesn't it go both ways somewhat?  Probably they are at more of an advantage than a disadvantage, and while Calvin gets their fair share of public schools kids, I would think those kids (if they are going to go to an MIAA school) would not have Calvin as high on their list.

Just throwing that out there in between trips outside to shovel and snowblow my driveway.

[oldknight]

Both Pat Coleman and Knightmare have made excellent comments.

Using cross country as an example isn't very useful to the discussion because there is a qualitative difference between cross country excellence and basketball excellence, a difference that is due to the nature of each sport. I didn't run cross country but I was a track athlete in addition to basketball and the differences are huge. Running is a very simple, individual sport within the context of team scoring. I can tell you from personal experience (both from the winning and from losing) that unless two runners are relatively close in ability, the better runner will win every time--not often, not regularly, but every time.

The same thing cannot be said about basketball. The dynamics of a team game with one ball, ten players (half of whom are defending), a very small hoop ten feet above the playing surface, and three officials making frequent calls that dramatically affect the course of play, means that upsets, even major upsets can and do occur. How many times have we seen clearly more talented, well-coached basketball teams lose to inferior competition? It has always been a part of the sport and always will be--especially at the college level where players and coaches on less talented teams have learned to compensate for weaknesses and keep games close.

[oldknight]

What I think is relevant to what Calvin fans should/can expect from the basketball team on a yearly basis is the built in recruiting advantage I believe Calvin has over every other MIAA team including Hope.  Calvin's connection to the CRC high schools in Western Michigan and beyond in my view seems to be a great deal stronger than any connection Hope has with RCA high schools or the other MIAA schools have. To a small degree, I believe Calvin has a head start recruiting year in and year out. I understand why a Calvin fan would be frustrated by the performance on the court based on this advantage. 

I've always been curious about this as a Calvin grad and I would love to get fans of other schools to comment.  Yes, Calvin certainly has a advantage over other MIAA schools in recruiting CRC high schools.  Doesn't this somewhat work the other way, too, though?  Because of what Calvin is perceived as out in the "community", aren't they at a bit of a disadvantage in recruiting the public schools?  Doesn't it go both ways somewhat?  Probably they are at more of an advantage than a disadvantage, and while Calvin gets their fair share of public schools kids, I would think those kids (if they are going to go to an MIAA school) would not have Calvin as high on their list.

Just throwing that out there in between trips outside to shovel and snowblow my driveway.

Getting a Christian school kid can be a disadvantage for a Calvin too. Other small colleges (like Hope) with a strong basketball tradition have made a decent living off students who graduate from Christian high schools. While it's true that some of those Hope recruits are RCA, there have been more than a few CRC grads (even PRC) who would seem to more naturally be headed to the East Beltline, yet have chosen to go to Holland. Undoubtedly the reasons for this are multiple but I'm sure one cause is the desire of some student-athletes to make a small break from the culture that nurtured them and to avoid going to school with the same kids they saw in the K-12 grades.