MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Knightmare]

Another point that I only briefly touched on is the level of recruiting competition.  Let's assume that everyone's excellence benchmark is the Calvin era of the early 1990's with Hondred and co. that was basically a guarantee to go to the tournament every year.  Previous to, and during, that era the recruiting competition from the likes of Cornerstone (at that time Grand Rapids Baptist), Davenport, Grace Bible etc. was virtually non-existent.  One only needs to look at the following quoted passage from Cornerstone's wikipedia page to see example of that change:  

"In the 1990s and early 2000s Cornerstone University expanded and transformed, changing its name, becoming a university, increasing enrollment, adding facilities and improving the campus, introducing an adult program including the MBA and a leadership development experience, adding an Honors Program and "Civitas" Core Curriculum, changing its mascot, colors, and logo, and winning a men's national basketball championship."

All of those schools combined probably take a number of fairly high level recruits that formerly were the domain of Calvin & Hope, even recruits from the CRC and RCA high schools.  Suppose that you added that one additional mid to high level recruit each year to Calvin or Hope's current classes but are missing out on right now to these other schools that previously weren't a player in recruiting and that would drastically alter the consistency level being achieved and the depth of the program.  I know that in the past we've had some of these same discussions.  It is a both a blessing and a curse but the reality is that West Michigan is home to an inordinately high number of quality small college basketball programs and that is why all of these programs will probably continue to experience an ebb and flow of their aspirations for national accolades and I believe this will be true for most all of these programs.

[realist]

For your sake I hope the cross country people don't get wind of your posting that you don't think their sport is as competitive as men's basketball.  If you ever attended a MIAA meet or regional meet or national event I think that woulld quickly change your opinion about the leveel of competion.  Just because a sport does not get the marquee attention of bball does not mean that it is unimportant or second rate.

Here's where I think the difference lies -- on basically every Division III campus with men, men's basketball is a sport that receives focus. The coach is someone who has a basketball coaching background, etc.

In some other sports, and I would say cross country definitely qualifies, you may have a coach for whom cross country is a second sport.

Clearly this is NOT an across-the-board truth regarding cross country. But I would believe it's fair to say there are campuses on which cross country is not taken seriously. If there are a few where men's basketball is not taken seriously, it's a very low number.

Not sure if I explained it very well but that's the basic premise.

Your point is well made, and I took some of that into consideration.  Certainly Calvin is blessed with an excellent cross country coach.  
What I left unsaid, to avoid becoming inflamatory, is something you allude to in your response.  If bball is a marguee sport, and you do have an experienced coach isn't it natural to expect that coach to meet higher expectations than an individual that is working outside their specialty?
I think men's bball is a marquee sport at Calvin, and the new VNA should remove any doubt about that.  Since it is a marquee sport why should we resign ourselves to lower expectations than any other sport?  
Given all the advantages that many posters acknowledge exist for Calvin I don't think that is unreasonable to expect the men's bball team to produce  marquee results.  Granted it takes a marquee coach to achieve marquee results, but again I ask why expect or settle for less.
KM:  Thank you for the civil comment.  I appreciate that.  I am not out to "get KVS", simply express my displeasure and opinion.
I do disagree with your comments about recruiting for bball being  tougher than other sports or special or unique to the MIAA schools.  My guess is your comments would be echeod by most posters in most boards in most sports.  I think Wooster is a good school, and they field a very competitive team every year.  I think Calvin has as much or even more to offer so it should be able to match what Wooster is doing.   Ohio has quite a few D3 and other schools so the competition for talent is pretty high there.  
The time to correct a downward trend line is once it is recognized.  For the administration to bury it's collective head in the sand and pretend everything is going great doesn't make sense.  Especially when they repeatedly offer lip service to how important they think the athletic portion of campus life is to the college experience.  Almost every year one reads one or more Calvin posters lamenting about how lame Calvin student participation is at bball games.  "They don't come, they don't cheer, etc. etc. etc."  The cure is pretty obvious, put a winning team on the floor.

[sac]

Another point that I only briefly touched on is the level of recruiting competition.  Let's assume that everyone's excellence benchmark is the Calvin era of the early 1990's with Hondred and co. that was basically a guarantee to go to the tournament every year.  Previous to, and during, that era the recruiting competition from the likes of Cornerstone (at that time Grand Rapids Baptist), Davenport, Grace Bible etc. was virtually non-existent.  One only needs to look at the following quoted passage from Cornerstone's wikipedia page to see example of that change:  

"In the 1990s and early 2000s Cornerstone University expanded and transformed, changing its name, becoming a university, increasing enrollment, adding facilities and improving the campus, introducing an adult program including the MBA and a leadership development experience, adding an Honors Program and "Civitas" Core Curriculum, changing its mascot, colors, and logo, and winning a men's national basketball championship."

All of those schools combined probably take a number of fairly high level recruits that formerly were the domain of Calvin & Hope, even recruits from the CRC and RCA high schools.  Suppose that you added that one additional mid to high level recruit to Calvin or Hope's classes that they used to get but are missing out on right now to these other schools that previously weren't a player in recruiting and that would drastically alter the consistency level being achieved and the depth of the program.  I know that in the past we've had some of these same discussions.  It is a both a blessing and a curse but the reality is that West Michigan is home to an inordinately high number of quality small college basketball programs and that is why all of these programs will probably continue to experience an ebb and flow of their aspirations for national accolades and I believe this will be true for most all of these programs.

ie early 90's to now..


This has been talked about before, but the GLIAC was a relatively new idea then as a D2 conference.  Many of those schools still had NAIA ties, and didn't have the number of scholarships or money value on those scholarships that they now have to offer.



---------------------------------------------------------

Calvin's distinct recruiting advantage over the other MIAA's is its national pull for CRC affiliated Christian schools.

This year's Calvin team is a little light on the "foreigners" (ie. not from Michigan )  but a guy like Brent Schuster from Denver, Co would most likely not have been recruited by anyone else in the MIAA.

Some of Calvin's best players this past decade came outside the mitten, Chris Prins, Caleb Veldhouse, Andy Draayer just to name a few.........no other MIAA school had a shot at these guys.


Without those guys, its seems Calvin's fortunes as a basketball program are directly tied to the success of the West Michigan area Christian schools, which have been a little down for a few years.  Nowhere near the power houses some of those programs were in the late 80's, 90's and even the early part of this decade.

[realist]

Sac:  A 6' 10" high school senior in Denver also attracted attention from schools in that area.  Just like Caleb was noticed by many D3, D2, and NAIA in SD. IW, and MN to name a few.  Calvin does have a built in advantage in some cases, but that doesn't mean that the kid was playing h.s. ball in a vacuum.
Brian Morehouse not to long ago commented that he was going out of state to attract quality players.  He has a quality, winning program, and I don't doubt his efforts will meet with success.  Look at the rosters of some of the more successful programs across the country, and you will see that many quality programs recruit far and wide.
Emory (the team Calvin's volleyball team beat for the national championship) had players from quite a number of states.   This wasn't their first trip to the big dance.  Comparing their roster to the Calvin roster the announcers found it quite unusual that Calvin had players from such a small geographic area.  They were even more amazed that 6 of them had attended the same h.s.

Go to the CCIW room during recruiting time and you will quickly learn that competion for quality recruits is not limited to the MIAA or the "mitten".

[GoKnights68]

The talent has never been a problem at Calvin, especially this year (yes they're young but the talent is there) with the bringing in of 2 great recruiting classes. I think that the downturn comes when people go from wanting National Championships to (as seen in discussions earlier this season) being happy with winning the regular season conference title. People lower their expectations continually and go from wanting to have nationally competitive every year, to being happy with nationally competitive teams maybe once every 4 or 5 years...So where does Calvin and KVS go from here? One thing is for sure, the whole "scheduled subbing" is the first thing that needs to get tossed out to metaphorical window...

I know the scheduled subbing thing has really frustrated fans in the past, especially students.  They see their friend out on the court get hot, and then he is immediately taken out?

[oldknight]

Rather than comparing Calvin to Div 1 teams like MSU (talk about apples and oranges) why don't you take the time to compare us to teams like Wash. U

I'm waiting for your counterpart to show up on the UAA board. If he's too lazy, I can write the script for him. No need for attribution.

The Bears are 10-8 (4-3 in conference) and have needed a 4 game win streak to get above .500 to do that well. That's Calvin College misery. Unlike the highly successful volleyball program, things at WashU have certainly hit a plateau in men's hoops; the school always settles for mediocrity in men's basketball. They set expectations too low and don't seem to want to place the best, most competitive team on the court, unlike volleyball which has well coached, well disciplined athletes that play every serve and never give up in the face of daunting odds. It's possible to repeat year after year and ME needs to realize it.

[ziggy]

GREAT LAKES         
1   Wooster   19-0   16-0
2   Hope   14-5   10-1
3   Wabash   16-3   15-3
4   Marietta   17-2   14-2
5   Wittenberg   14-5   11-3
6   Penn State-Behrend   16-2   16-1

[realist]

Rather than comparing Calvin to Div 1 teams like MSU (talk about apples and oranges) why don't you take the time to compare us to teams like Wash. U

I'm waiting for your counterpart to show up on the UAA board. If he's too lazy, I can write the script for him. No need for attribution.

The Bears are 10-8 (4-3 in conference) and have needed a 4 game win streak to get above .500 to do that well. That's Calvin College misery. Unlike the highly successful volleyball program, things at WashU have certainly hit a plateau in men's hoops; the school always settles for mediocrity in men's basketball. They set expectations too low and don't seem to want to place the best, most competitive team on the court, unlike volleyball which has well coached, well disciplined athletes that play every serve and never give up in the face of daunting odds. It's possible to repeat year after year and ME needs to realize it.

Unlike Calvin I really don't think anyone expects Wash U. to be down for 5 years, and the admin. there to still act like everything is great.  Everyone expects every program to have a down year or two once in awhile.  Accepting a downward trend line is quite another scenario.  

Really OK.  You normally are a reasonable poster, but in your defense of mediocrity you have stooped to the level of deliberatly cutting a quote to serve your purpose.  I know you like kool-aid, and think KVS is a good coach.  On this we differ.  Why don't you do the intellectually honest thing and post your smart ass comment like you were a Wooster boster

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

First Regional Rankings: http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2011/02/02/ncaas-mens-regional-rankings/

[Knightmare]

The talent has never been a problem at Calvin, especially this year (yes they're young but the talent is there) with the bringing in of 2 great recruiting classes. I think that the downturn comes when people go from wanting National Championships to (as seen in discussions earlier this season) being happy with winning the regular season conference title. People lower their expectations continually and go from wanting to have nationally competitive every year, to being happy with nationally competitive teams maybe once every 4 or 5 years...So where does Calvin and KVS go from here? One thing is for sure, the whole "scheduled subbing" is the first thing that needs to get tossed out to metaphorical window...

I know the scheduled subbing thing has really frustrated fans in the past, especially students.  They see their friend out on the court get hot, and then he is immediately taken out?

I will say that the scheduled subbing does drive me a little nuts.  I'm all for players having a defined role to help foster a cohesive team but sticking with a hard-line rule on scheduled subbing can be annoying.  Now nothing wrong with a player knowing that generally he will be entering and exiting a game at certain points and playing roughly a certain number of minutes but part of coaching is throwing that "plan" out the window depending on if someone is really playing well and "hot" or if a player gets into foul trouble or happens to really be playing poorly.  It would be nice if the subbing was occasionally a bit more adaptable to the game flow.

[realist]

The talent has never been a problem at Calvin, especially this year (yes they're young but the talent is there) with the bringing in of 2 great recruiting classes. I think that the downturn comes when people go from wanting National Championships to (as seen in discussions earlier this season) being happy with winning the regular season conference title. People lower their expectations continually and go from wanting to have nationally competitive every year, to being happy with nationally competitive teams maybe once every 4 or 5 years...So where does Calvin and KVS go from here? One thing is for sure, the whole "scheduled subbing" is the first thing that needs to get tossed out to metaphorical window...

I know the scheduled subbing thing has really frustrated fans in the past, especially students.  They see their friend out on the court get hot, and then he is immediately taken out?

I will say that the scheduled subbing does drive me a little nuts.  I'm all for players having a defined role to help foster a cohesive team but sticking with a hard-line rule on scheduled subbing can be annoying.  Now nothing wrong with a player knowing that generally he will be entering and exiting a game at certain points and playing roughly a certain number of minutes but part of coaching is throwing that "plan" out the window depending on if someone is really playing well and "hot" or if a player gets into foul trouble or happens to really be playing poorly.  It would be nice if the subbing was occasionally a bit more adaptable to the game flow.

Sadly the subbing thing is but one symptom of the basic problem with KVS.  The root problem is KVS is rigid, and inflexible, and his mind is made up, and who are you to question anything I do, because...........................?
Matt Neil knew exactly what KVS was going to do in the second half, and he coached his team to counter exactly what he expected.  Every coach in the MIAA knows what KVS and Calvin are going to do.  See the Kalamzoo game, and tell me R. Passage didn't know what Calvin was going to do?
GVW did quite well against KVS because he figured out how to beat Calvin, and he had adequate talent to do it.  You still need a fair amount of talent to beat Calvin, but the deck is stacked in your favor because of the predictability.

[ziggy]

Sadly the subbing thing is but one symptom of the basic problem with KVS.  The root problem is KVS is rigid, and inflexible, and his mind is made up, and who are you to question anything I do, because...........................?
Matt Neil knew exactly what KVS was going to do in the second half, and he coached his team to counter exactly what he expected.  Every coach in the MIAA knows what KVS and Calvin are going to do.  See the Kalamzoo game, and tell me R. Passage didn't know what Calvin was going to do?

Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that you would agree that Matt Neil knew what Calvin would do in the first half as well. What was the problem with the way the first half went?

[sac]

Sac:  A 6' 10" high school senior in Denver also attracted attention from schools in that area.  Just like Caleb was noticed by many D3, D2, and NAIA in SD. IW, and MN to name a few.  Calvin does have a built in advantage in some cases, but that doesn't mean that the kid was playing h.s. ball in a vacuum.
Brian Morehouse not to long ago commented that he was going out of state to attract quality players.  He has a quality, winning program, and I don't doubt his efforts will meet with success.  Look at the rosters of some of the more successful programs across the country, and you will see that many quality programs recruit far and wide.
Emory (the team Calvin's volleyball team beat for the national championship) had players from quite a number of states.   This wasn't their first trip to the big dance.  Comparing their roster to the Calvin roster the announcers found it quite unusual that Calvin had players from such a small geographic area.  They were even more amazed that 6 of them had attended the same h.s.

Go to the CCIW room during recruiting time and you will quickly learn that competion for quality recruits is not limited to the MIAA or the "mitten".

Wow, I never realized I could hit one so far over someone's head that it would be that unplayable.

[Civic Minded]

Sac:  A 6' 10" high school senior in Denver also attracted attention from schools in that area.  Just like Caleb was noticed by many D3, D2, and NAIA in SD. IW, and MN to name a few.  Calvin does have a built in advantage in some cases, but that doesn't mean that the kid was playing h.s. ball in a vacuum.
Brian Morehouse not to long ago commented that he was going out of state to attract quality players.  He has a quality, winning program, and I don't doubt his efforts will meet with success.  Look at the rosters of some of the more successful programs across the country, and you will see that many quality programs recruit far and wide.
Emory (the team Calvin's volleyball team beat for the national championship) had players from quite a number of states.   This wasn't their first trip to the big dance.  Comparing their roster to the Calvin roster the announcers found it quite unusual that Calvin had players from such a small geographic area.  They were even more amazed that 6 of them had attended the same h.s.

Go to the CCIW room during recruiting time and you will quickly learn that competion for quality recruits is not limited to the MIAA or the "mitten".

Wow, I never realized I could hit one so far over someone's head that it would be that unplayable.

Oh good.  I was beginning to think it was me that missed the point entirely.

[realist]

Sadly the subbing thing is but one symptom of the basic problem with KVS.  The root problem is KVS is rigid, and inflexible, and his mind is made up, and who are you to question anything I do, because...........................?
Matt Neil knew exactly what KVS was going to do in the second half, and he coached his team to counter exactly what he expected.  Every coach in the MIAA knows what KVS and Calvin are going to do.  See the Kalamzoo game, and tell me R. Passage didn't know what Calvin was going to do?

Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that you would agree that Matt Neil knew what Calvin would do in the first half as well. What was the problem with the way the first half went?

Good question.  Yes, he knew, and as others rightly pointed out before it is one thing to know what is going to happen, and quite another to be able to stop it.  Calvin players executed the plan well.  In the second half they did not respond or have a fall back position once it became apparent Hope had an adequate counter.   Also Calvin quickly lost composure once Hope started it's run.  Once Hope tied the game, the "hay was in the barn", and while some Hope posters find fault with how Hope managed the clock it wasn't that crictical since they were already in Calvin's head.