MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Busted Stuff]

I do agree with your observations.  However, I think some of this has to do with certain posters blaming losses solely on KVS, while the majority of Calvin posters probably do not share the same sentiment.  It's hard to give the coach all the credit for a win, it's easy, though, to blame a loss (especially an eighteen point lead flop) solely on poor coaching or a lack of game-plan adjustments; therein, in my opinion, lies the discontinuity.

There would also seem to be a lack of credit given to the opposing team in this case - specifically one that has been dominant in the 2nd half for the majority of its games this year.

Absolutely not, I was just responding as to why their is a perceived discontinuity between a Calvin win and a Calvin loss. This has nothing to do with a lack of credit to the opposing team, but how it is easier for some people to cast the blame at the coach in a certain situation (a loss) and not in another (a win).

[northb]

Lastly, is matching up with Trine in the tournament any better really?  I know Trine has only won one league game but I think as a matchup for the #2 seed they look pretty tough.  It might be one of the toughest 2-7 matchups we've seen in the tournament.

@ Calvin, this doesn't scream cakewalk
http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/1011/0122catr.htm

Easier certainly doesn't mean easy, but the lead was nine points in that game with 0:48 left. Ian Jackson hit a couple of desperation attempts to close it down a bit.

Out of all the other options though: Albion, Olivet, Adrian, and Kzoo, Trine seems the 'cakewalkiest' to me.

Certainly not excited about seeing Kzoo again, don't want to ever play McClary, Adrian beat Calvin earlier, and who ever would like a first round matchup with Albion.

+k for introducing the term "cakewalkiest" to the board! 

[ziggy]

Lastly, is matching up with Trine in the tournament any better really?  I know Trine has only won one league game but I think as a matchup for the #2 seed they look pretty tough.  It might be one of the toughest 2-7 matchups we've seen in the tournament.

@ Calvin, this doesn't scream cakewalk
http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/1011/0122catr.htm

Easier certainly doesn't mean easy, but the lead was nine points in that game with 0:48 left. Ian Jackson hit a couple of desperation attempts to close it down a bit.

Out of all the other options though: Albion, Olivet, Adrian, and Kzoo, Trine seems the 'cakewalkiest' to me.

Certainly not excited about seeing Kzoo again, don't want to ever play McClary, Adrian beat Calvin earlier, and who ever would like a first round matchup with Albion.

+k for introducing the term "cakewalkiest" to the board! 

"Voisonesque" was the first thing I thought of yesterday when a local radio personality was rampaging on the zero assist game that Kalin Lucas had against Iowa. Some great words are being coined here.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I do agree with your observations.  However, I think some of this has to do with certain posters blaming losses solely on KVS, while the majority of Calvin posters probably do not share the same sentiment.  It's hard to give the coach all the credit for a win, it's easy, though, to blame a loss (especially an eighteen point lead flop) solely on poor coaching or a lack of game-plan adjustments; therein, in my opinion, lies the discontinuity.

There would also seem to be a lack of credit given to the opposing team in this case - specifically one that has been dominant in the 2nd half for the majority of its games this year.

Absolutely not, I was just responding as to why their is a perceived discontinuity between a Calvin win and a Calvin loss. This has nothing to do with a lack of credit to the opposing team, but how it is easier for some people to cast the blame at the coach in a certain situation (a loss) and not in another (a win).

BS (sorry, but those are your "initials") I wasn't directing my response at you.  I was simply trying to point out there are two teams on the floor - a fact that has been omited in much of this discussion.

Some days you just have to admit the better team won.  January 5, Calvin was definitely the better team.  On January 29, Hope was.

[HopeConvert]

Sadly the subbing thing is but one symptom of the basic problem with KVS.  The root problem is KVS is rigid, and inflexible, and his mind is made up, and who are you to question anything I do, because...........................?
Matt Neil knew exactly what KVS was going to do in the second half, and he coached his team to counter exactly what he expected.  Every coach in the MIAA knows what KVS and Calvin are going to do.  See the Kalamzoo game, and tell me R. Passage didn't know what Calvin was going to do?

Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that you would agree that Matt Neil knew what Calvin would do in the first half as well. What was the problem with the way the first half went?

Couple of unsolicited observations: (of course all observations on this board are:)

1. When Calvin wins, the players were awesome..when Calvin loses, KVS stinks.

2. Tom Cleary may be the most negative announcer in the history of basketball announcing.  (at least that I have heard) Every call by officials is questioned and every play by a player is met with "why didnt he....." maybe Billy Packer taught him everything.

3. Coach Neil is a great interview and I would want my kid to play for him.

Observation #1 is spot on and I'll use this opportunity to explain my theory on why posters often are guilty of that (not just here either but in most all sports and with most any coaches).

Most of the blame from fans (such as ourselves on this board) falls at a coaches feet because we all are great armchair quarterbacks and analysts that when seeing or commenting on a game plan or strategy think to ourselves one of two things regarding the coach.  First we believe after a win that we could've, and would've, come up with that same exact game plan to win that our coach did or two occurring after a loss is that we could've, and would've, formulated a better strategy and game plan than the coach and that's why we lost, clearly we could "see" what should have in fact happened from the stands or the TV.  The reason these thoughts occur regarding the Coach is because coaching doesn't take any athletic skill or ability, just some knowledge, that as fans (short for fanatics) we've all got just enough of to make us dangerous.

Players on the other hand aren't questioned because even when a loss may be blamed or pinned on them for lack of execution (mentally or physically) of a very sound game plan there is a factor that comes into play in the relationship with fans.  That factor is that even on most of these players worst playing day they are probably still better than almost all of us fans would be on our best playing day.

For this reason we know that we couldn't execute a players job better than them (even when they are doing it poorly) but a coach on the other hand we can foolishly convince ourselves that we could've come up with a better strategy or adjustment if confronted with the same situation as our respective coach did.  I know I'm guilty of this as are most others on this board, it's the reason we come to this board in the first place  .  It's also the reason that often times coaches are made the scapegoat professionally and collegiality for a situation that may have been the players that inadvertently (and sometimes intentionally) sabotaged themselves.  Now there are certainly legitimate times when a coaching change is in order but more often than not it is always just easier to blame and replace one coach than a whole team of players.

KVS doesn't do himself any favors when he gives interviews like this:

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/sports/ncaa_basketball/Biggest-comeback-in-Hope-Calvin-history

[almcguirejr]

Sadly the subbing thing is but one symptom of the basic problem with KVS.  The root problem is KVS is rigid, and inflexible, and his mind is made up, and who are you to question anything I do, because...........................?
Matt Neil knew exactly what KVS was going to do in the second half, and he coached his team to counter exactly what he expected.  Every coach in the MIAA knows what KVS and Calvin are going to do.  See the Kalamzoo game, and tell me R. Passage didn't know what Calvin was going to do?

 


Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that you would agree that Matt Neil knew what Calvin would do in the first half as well. What was the problem with the way the first half went?

Couple of unsolicited observations: (of course all observations on this board are:)

1. When Calvin wins, the players were awesome..when Calvin loses, KVS stinks.

2. Tom Cleary may be the most negative announcer in the history of basketball announcing.  (at least that I have heard) Every call by officials is questioned and every play by a player is met with "why didnt he....." maybe Billy Packer taught him everything.

3. Coach Neil is a great interview and I would want my kid to play for him.

Observation #1 is spot on and I'll use this opportunity to explain my theory on why posters often are guilty of that (not just here either but in most all sports and with most any coaches).

Most of the blame from fans (such as ourselves on this board) falls at a coaches feet because we all are great armchair quarterbacks and analysts that when seeing or commenting on a game plan or strategy think to ourselves one of two things regarding the coach.  First we believe after a win that we could've, and would've, come up with that same exact game plan to win that our coach did or two occurring after a loss is that we could've, and would've, formulated a better strategy and game plan than the coach and that's why we lost, clearly we could "see" what should have in fact happened from the stands or the TV.  The reason these thoughts occur regarding the Coach is because coaching doesn't take any athletic skill or ability, just some knowledge, that as fans (short for fanatics) we've all got just enough of to make us dangerous.

Players on the other hand aren't questioned because even when a loss may be blamed or pinned on them for lack of execution (mentally or physically) of a very sound game plan there is a factor that comes into play in the relationship with fans.  That factor is that even on most of these players worst playing day they are probably still better than almost all of us fans would be on our best playing day.

For this reason we know that we couldn't execute a players job better than them (even when they are doing it poorly) but a coach on the other hand we can foolishly convince ourselves that we could've come up with a better strategy or adjustment if confronted with the same situation as our respective coach did.  I know I'm guilty of this as are most others on this board, it's the reason we come to this board in the first place  .  It's also the reason that often times coaches are made the scapegoat professionally and collegiality for a situation that may have been the players that inadvertently (and sometimes intentionally) sabotaged themselves.  Now there are certainly legitimate times when a coaching change is in order but more often than not it is always just easier to blame and replace one coach than a whole team of players.

KVS doesn't do himself any favors when he gives interviews like this:

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/sports/ncaa_basketball/Biggest-comeback-in-Hope-Calvin-history

KVS stepped up and took the blame and protected his players.  Would you have preferred "we lost the score, I'm not sure we lost the game?"

[Knightmare]

Sadly the subbing thing is but one symptom of the basic problem with KVS.  The root problem is KVS is rigid, and inflexible, and his mind is made up, and who are you to question anything I do, because...........................?
Matt Neil knew exactly what KVS was going to do in the second half, and he coached his team to counter exactly what he expected.  Every coach in the MIAA knows what KVS and Calvin are going to do.  See the Kalamzoo game, and tell me R. Passage didn't know what Calvin was going to do?

Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that you would agree that Matt Neil knew what Calvin would do in the first half as well. What was the problem with the way the first half went?

Couple of unsolicited observations: (of course all observations on this board are:)

1. When Calvin wins, the players were awesome..when Calvin loses, KVS stinks.

2. Tom Cleary may be the most negative announcer in the history of basketball announcing.  (at least that I have heard) Every call by officials is questioned and every play by a player is met with "why didnt he....." maybe Billy Packer taught him everything.

3. Coach Neil is a great interview and I would want my kid to play for him.

Observation #1 is spot on and I'll use this opportunity to explain my theory on why posters often are guilty of that (not just here either but in most all sports and with most any coaches).

Most of the blame from fans (such as ourselves on this board) falls at a coaches feet because we all are great armchair quarterbacks and analysts that when seeing or commenting on a game plan or strategy think to ourselves one of two things regarding the coach.  First we believe after a win that we could've, and would've, come up with that same exact game plan to win that our coach did or two occurring after a loss is that we could've, and would've, formulated a better strategy and game plan than the coach and that's why we lost, clearly we could "see" what should have in fact happened from the stands or the TV.  The reason these thoughts occur regarding the Coach is because coaching doesn't take any athletic skill or ability, just some knowledge, that as fans (short for fanatics) we've all got just enough of to make us dangerous.

Players on the other hand aren't questioned because even when a loss may be blamed or pinned on them for lack of execution (mentally or physically) of a very sound game plan there is a factor that comes into play in the relationship with fans.  That factor is that even on most of these players worst playing day they are probably still better than almost all of us fans would be on our best playing day.

For this reason we know that we couldn't execute a players job better than them (even when they are doing it poorly) but a coach on the other hand we can foolishly convince ourselves that we could've come up with a better strategy or adjustment if confronted with the same situation as our respective coach did.  I know I'm guilty of this as are most others on this board, it's the reason we come to this board in the first place  .  It's also the reason that often times coaches are made the scapegoat professionally and collegiality for a situation that may have been the players that inadvertently (and sometimes intentionally) sabotaged themselves.  Now there are certainly legitimate times when a coaching change is in order but more often than not it is always just easier to blame and replace one coach than a whole team of players.

KVS doesn't do himself any favors when he gives interviews like this:

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/sports/ncaa_basketball/Biggest-comeback-in-Hope-Calvin-history

It may or may not apply in this case but I've seen many coaches take the bullet for their team either pre-game or post-game to divert the attention off of them even if the players were clearly the culprit of a problem.  Rex Ryan does it all the time for the New York Jets football team.  Again don't know if that's the case here, maybe this was a bad coaching performance but I'd venture to guess that in that 2nd half there were breakdowns on multiple fronts with coaches and players alike as well as Hope raising the level of their play as well resulting in a big turnaround in the game.

As someone posted earlier often times losing teams fans don't give the necessary credit to the winning team and just focus and reflect on what they failed to do.  Sometimes the other team just plays better.


Al beat me to the punch while I was typing with his reply.  Again I'm sure there are things KVS did, or didn't, do in that game that he regrets but I'd rather a coach that is a stand up guy and either protects his players or owns up to things he could've done better.

[oldknight]

KVS doesn't do himself any favors when he gives interviews like this:

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/sports/ncaa_basketball/Biggest-comeback-in-Hope-Calvin-history

I think that was definition of falling on your sword. Maybe those of our number who have provided us with all those dead equines can come up with the appropriate picture.

[almcguirejr]

[sac]

[Gregory Sager]

Lastly, is matching up with Trine in the tournament any better really?  I know Trine has only won one league game but I think as a matchup for the #2 seed they look pretty tough.  It might be one of the toughest 2-7 matchups we've seen in the tournament.

@ Calvin, this doesn't scream cakewalk
http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/1011/0122catr.htm

Easier certainly doesn't mean easy, but the lead was nine points in that game with 0:48 left. Ian Jackson hit a couple of desperation attempts to close it down a bit.

Out of all the other options though: Albion, Olivet, Adrian, and Kzoo, Trine seems the 'cakewalkiest' to me.

Certainly not excited about seeing Kzoo again, don't want to ever play McClary, Adrian beat Calvin earlier, and who ever would like a first round matchup with Albion.

+k for introducing the term "cakewalkiest" to the board! 

"Voisonesque" was the first thing I thought of yesterday when a local radio personality was rampaging on the zero assist game that Kalin Lucas had against Iowa. Some great words are being coined here.

"Cakewalkiest" and "Voisonesque" both belong in the Michigan Hall of Fame of Supersweetness.

[KNIGHTRHOPE]

In reference to Snikkers TO's.....KVS has the stat person charge the PASSER if the Receiver can't handle the pass....I would wager that many if not most of Tom's TO's are a result of a teammates inability to anticipate or react quickly enough to Tom's no-look passes.  In addition.....I'm sure a number of TO's are a result of him being very obviously fouled and not getting the call.  The team would be in real trouble without Schnyders and Snikkers having the moxy to get in the paint and make things happen.  I'm hoping that as Kruis develops offensively...it will take some of the pressure off of Tom and Brad.

[oldknight]

KVS has the stat person charge the PASSER if the Receiver can't handle the pass

Doing this is not unique to KVS; that's just the way statistics are compiled--or are supposed to be.

I'm hoping that as Kruis develops offensively

That will happen; it's just a matter of time. The MIAA conference tournament final would be a nice coming out party for Tyler on the offensive side.

[calvinite]

Good point -- I do recall a couple of Tommy's passes that were 'missed' by the receiver and perhaps should have been caught.... although I wonder if this is sort of like a perfect pass that hits the receiver on the back of his head....  I mean, is a great, no-look pass to someone underneath the basket a great pass if it's really difficult to catch?

In any event, there's no way that 'most' of Tommy's passes fit this type of turnover.... Someone mentioned earlier about the frustration of watching Tommy dribble through a double team (Knightslappy?). I dare say more of his turnovers come in this way than in uncaught passes that should have been caught.

Turnovers are Calvin's achilles' heel -- as has been mentioned here already. I think this is a team problem--not a Snikker's problem. It includes players 'catching' balls that should be caught, moving to get open for passes, probably a whole lot more work on breaking the press, and individuals NOT trying to dribble through a double team, etc.

Someone recently posted about Calvin winning when they play well and losing when they aren't coached well. I'd suggest that when Calvin plays well they win, and when Calvin has an unacceptable (whatever that means) numbers of turnovers, they lose (they often have a lot of turnovers and still win, but some of the turnovers this year have been just killers).

[HopeConvert]

KVS doesn't do himself any favors when he gives interviews like this:

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/sports/ncaa_basketball/Biggest-comeback-in-Hope-Calvin-history

KVS stepped up and took the blame and protected his players.  Would you have preferred "we lost the score, I'm not sure we lost the game?"

I have no preferences one way or the other. I really don't care. I'm just saying when you put a target on yourself you can't be surprised when people shoot at it. I understand it seems like the noble thing to do.

That said, were I a Calvin fan I would be concerned to hear that, when the team had its heel on the neck of its biggest rival, it couldn't get it together "emotionally, enthusiastic[ally], mentally." It may be nice that KVS is falling on the team's sword, but at the same time he may be revealing a very serious problem.