MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Titan Q]

Regarding moving to a 4-team conference tournament, note that it could hurt the MIAA's Pool C chances.  In a 4-team tournament, your results are:

Champion: 2-0
Championship game loser: 1-1
Semifinal loser: 0-1
Semifinal loser: 0-1

Obviously the champion has the Pool A bid.  In a 4-team tournament, the Pool C candidates left all see their in-region winning % drop.  Even in the CCIW, where most of the Pool C candidates have a lot of "in-region equity" built up, we have seen a couple situations where that 0-1 or 1-1 has really hurt a team.  I'd think this could be much more significant for a Hope or Calvin Pool C candidate due to the limited in-region games.

In an 8-team tournament, the top 4 at least get the opportunity for another W vs the bottom 4.  So you have...

Champion: 3-0
Championship game loser: 2-1
Semifinal game loser: 1-1
Semifinal game loser: 1-1
4 opening round losers: 0-1


That 2-1 for the championship game loser is a lot better than 1-1.  And again, we all know that these Pool C decisions can come down to 1 game.

I've been a proponent of the CCIW moving to an 8-team tournament for this reason.  It doesn't make sense to me for the league to have a conference tournament setup that can potentially hurt its team's Pool C chances.  (And I do appreciate that Division III is about the student-athlete.  But do I think these student-athletes can successfully navigate one additional basketball game?  Yes.)

[KnightSlappy]

The first round is also a home game against a poor opponent. This probably kills SOS more than it helps winning percentage.

One question though, would they gain an extra game in the schedule for this, or would it just eliminate one game? I know there was a rule about this but I'm not sure if it is still in effect.

[Erm Schmigget]

The first round is also a home game against a poor opponent. This probably kills SOS more than it helps winning percentage.

One question though, would they gain an extra game in the schedule for this, or would it just eliminate one game? I know there was a rule about this but I'm not sure if it is still in effect.

I was wondering the same thing.  If the conference eliminates one game from each of its teams' schedules, does that allow them to schedule one more game, possibly against another in-region opponent.  That could be a very good thing for a team hoping for a pool C bid, providing they win that extra in-region game.

[sac]

The first round is also a home game against a poor opponent. This probably kills SOS more than it helps winning percentage.

One question though, would they gain an extra game in the schedule for this, or would it just eliminate one game? I know there was a rule about this but I'm not sure if it is still in effect.

I believe the CCIW plays the same # of regular season games as the MIAA does now, I don't think you would be able to pick up another game in non-conference play.

I don't remember but I think 25 is the regular season limit.




I don't like it for a lot reasons but looking at this year's standings, Trine and Alma would be out of the running for the top half, making their season's pretty much over at this point.  If they have no goal to reach beyond the regular season what incentive is there for them to continue to try and improve, to continue to work hard in practice so they can put their best effort on the floor in the MIAA tournament.

[Pat Coleman]

And to expand on what sac said, 25 games is the limit whether you have an eight-team tournament, a four-team tournament, a two-team tournament or none at all.

[sac]

The #8 seed has never won an MIAA tournament game, but also remember we've only had a #8 seed for 8 of the tournaments.

The #7 seed has never won an MIAA tournament game, most wins were comfortable only 1 single digit game and that came last year with Hope/Trine

#6 seed
1997 Adrian beat Kzoo

#5 seed
1995 Albion beat Olivet
1997 Alma beat Albion
2001 Adrian beat Albion in OT
2003 Adrian beat Kzoo
2008 Adrian beat Trine

For the most part the MIAA tournament first round has gone true to form.  My guess is Adrian is probably really opposed to this.

[Erm Schmigget]

And to expand on what sac said, 25 games is the limit whether you have an eight-team tournament, a four-team tournament, a two-team tournament or none at all.

That's what I was afraid of.  So, with the elimination of the "first round" of the MIAA tournament, any pool C hopefuls would be losing a chance to pick up another in-region win.

[sflzman]

I'm sure there have been other close ones too, but the 2009 tourney 1/8 game was 70-64 at the 3:00 minute mark...

[Titan Q]

The first round is also a home game against a poor opponent. This probably kills SOS more than it helps winning percentage.

SOS is certainly hurt a bit, but I'm pretty confident that the impact on in-region winning % is more significant.  I cannot prove that, but I do think it's true.  Of the two (in-region winning % and SOS), there is no question in-region winning % is more important in the Division III selection/seeding process.

As far as the impact on in-region winning percentage... 

Let's say Calvin, in a completely hypothetical year, finishes the regular season 10-4 in the MIAA (2nd place) and 2-0 in in-region non-conference games...so 12-4, which is .750, heading in the conf tournament.  (A winning percentage of .750 puts a team in pretty good Pool C shape most seasons.)   In the 4-team conference tournament, Calvin goes 1-1, and is now 13-5 (.722).  That .722 number is in big-time bubble territory.  With an 8-team tournament, and 2-1, Calvin would be 14-5 (.737) on Selection Sunday.  There are seasons where the difference between .722 and .737 could be the difference between Pool C and getting left out.

[KnightSlappy]

The first round is also a home game against a poor opponent. This probably kills SOS more than it helps winning percentage.

SOS is certainly hurt a bit, but I'm pretty confident that the impact on in-region winning % is more significant.  I cannot prove that, but I do think it's true.  Of the two (in-region winning % and SOS), there is no question in-region winning % is more important in the Division III selection/seeding process.

As far as the impact on in-region winning percentage... 

Let's say Calvin, in a completely hypothetical year, finishes the regular season 10-4 in the MIAA (2nd place) and 2-0 in in-region non-conference games...so 12-4, which is .750, heading in the conf tournament.  (A winning percentage of .750 puts a team in pretty good Pool C shape most seasons.)   In the 4-team conference tournament, Calvin goes 1-1, and is now 13-5 (.722).  That .722 number is in big-time bubble territory.  With an 8-team tournament, and 2-1, Calvin would be 14-5 (.737) on Selection Sunday.  There are seasons where the difference between .722 and .737 could be the difference between Pool C and getting left out.

So, it comes down to which is better with an added hypothetical SOS of 0.515 in the 4-team scenario and using this year's Trine team as the extra Tournament game:

WP: 0.737 SOS: 0.502
WP: 0.722 SOS: 0.515

RPI actually likes the one with the lower WP but larger SOS, but we know the committee doesn't look at it that way. It's all about how they weigh the two against each other.

[ziggy]

Michigan State is getting straight jail-sexed again today. That Izzo guy is a bum.

[sac]

Michigan State is getting straight jail-sexed again today. That Izzo guy is a bum.

He simply has nowhere near the talent many of his last 10 or 12 teams have had.

They hype around MSU has been his own worst enemy this year, they just aren't that good and #2 pre-season ranking was undeserved.  Kory Lucious or not

[hoopdreams]

Not going into great detail about yesterday but a couple things....

- continue to be impressed with Alma and although their record does not indicate it, they are a couple players away from being pretty good.  Hopefully their nucleus returns next year.

-new arena is fantastic from the seating, to the lighting, to the scoreboard.  If they ever get fans in the seats, my impression is that it could become pretty electric in there.

- If Silverthorn, Erickson and Scheiders (apologies on the spelling) play well on the same night, they could upset someone in the MIAA tourney.  Hope was fortunate that Erickson never got on track offensively.

- Maybe Snuggs was ill or injured ( judging by his demeanor when leaving the floor he is not) but I believe Neil was preparing his club for Wednesdays showdown vs. Olivet by playing 4 guards including bowser, while alternating between Snuggs and Dickerson often.  Guessing more for offensive flow than defensively.  Bowser should check MM again and the others will have to pick up the potential slack on offense.  Yesterday was a practice run I think.

[wiz]

Michigan State is getting straight jail-sexed again today. That Izzo guy is a bum.

I don't like his substitution pattern and his inability to make in-game adjustments.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Mr. Wentworth is correct.  Next year the tournaments for all league sports go to four team tournaments.  This is to reduce travel expense and mainly to reduce time away from class.

It also reduces the risk that a team with no real chance of representing the conference well will get hot and 'steal' the AQ.

It also takes away one built in in-region game from a conference with geographical limitations that other d3 schools do not have to face.

I have one thought


1) I don't like it

+1 for succinctness.

I don't much like when conferences take opportunities to compete away from student-athletes. That's one less game for four teams.

I agree with everyone. I think this is an unfortunate change.  And the argument it is saving class time is a pretty weak one in my estimation. It's literally one afternoon of classes for 4 teams that is being saved this way.

If it's true Hope and Calvin pushed for the change it is really interesting and may hurt one or both teams in any given year. As Titan Q points out losing an in-region game could be detrimental to Pool C chances for the MIAA losers. There is a good chance that means Hope and/or Calvin will be hurt every year.

As someone else said it's also unfortunate for teams who could know there is no chance to for an MIAA tourney appearance as early as the first week of February. I realize the #7 and #8 seeds have never won a game before but that doesn't mean the conference should abandon the excitement of a full tournament.