MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

This was a small taken from this Holland Sentinel article about the tournament chanages....
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/newsnow/x700950875/MIAA-tournament-format-for-all-sports-changing-this-fall



The change is not a cost-cutting move designed to save money on travel for league tournament events, Neilson said. The league could potentially lose money from quarterfinal basketball games that won't be held anymore

[Adrian Hoops Fan]

Adrian had maybe 15 people who made the trip, all of them probably relatives.  No students from Adrian that I could see.   It was a very disappointing turnout for the Bulldogs.

Olivet had what at this point I'll call their standard home crowd, the bleachers looked as full as they usually have minus the empty visitor section.  And no band for some reason.

Adrian doesn't have the greatest following for hoops especially on the road, but Adrian and the surrounding area was hammered with ice on Sunday night with over half of the county out of power and down trees and power lines all over the place, and to make matters worse, we got 4 inches of snow on top of that on Monday.  The great news for us now is that after midnight we are supposed to get 4-8 inches of snow with sleet mixed in.  So for this time only, I will give the students a pass on their lack of support.  Best of luck to the remaining 4.  

I personally as wishing for Adrian to win the tournament not only because that is my school, but so that the presidents of the schools may rethink their new  craptastic plan for a conference tournament.

It is not about if the lower seed can win the tourney.  If the history of this league shows anything, it is that dropping the 5-8 seeds is a pretty safe bet.  It is about making it financially viable.  Go out and get all your friends, classmates or alumni to get up and go to the games, and then they can rethink it.  Fans had the chance to do so last night and the numbers just weren't there.  If the fans don't care enough, why should the institution?

Northb it has nothing to do with attendance, it is strictly a throw all the sports in the pot except for fb and do the same tournament structure.  Also they say if a low seed i.e. 01 bulldogs won the tournament then it would have diminished the championship of 1 seed Calvin from that year.  This was part of the explanation by the commishioner to me when I asked him why this was happening.  Sac summed up the rest of this.

It has nothing to do with the attendance and I already explained the poor following for Adrian last night which you must have omitted to read that we have been hit hard down here by a winter storm that consisted of 4 inches of ice and most peiole were still without power last night so the main concern of people here was keeping their families warm and pipes from freezing.  And I already admitted that Adrian much like all MIAA schools not named Calvin or Hope has a problem getting big crowds.  This is no secret and could be found on the MIAA website under the attendance.  

The change in format is not just eliminating the the 5-8 seeds, it is a step in the wrong direction for the  league

[realist]

"The change is not a cost-cutting move designed to save money on travel for league tournament events, Neilson said. The league could potentially lose money from quarterfinal basketball games that won't be held anymore"

Believe what you want to believe.    
See the "law of unintended consequences". 
No way the MIAA tournament games made money Tuesday evening or last night or tonight for that matter. 
The costs of the tournament games are much more than the "travel". 
I have been around long enough to know when B.S. is being spun.   

[northb]

Adrian had maybe 15 people who made the trip, all of them probably relatives.  No students from Adrian that I could see.   It was a very disappointing turnout for the Bulldogs.

Olivet had what at this point I'll call their standard home crowd, the bleachers looked as full as they usually have minus the empty visitor section.  And no band for some reason.

Adrian doesn't have the greatest following for hoops especially on the road, but Adrian and the surrounding area was hammered with ice on Sunday night with over half of the county out of power and down trees and power lines all over the place, and to make matters worse, we got 4 inches of snow on top of that on Monday.  The great news for us now is that after midnight we are supposed to get 4-8 inches of snow with sleet mixed in.  So for this time only, I will give the students a pass on their lack of support.  Best of luck to the remaining 4.  

I personally as wishing for Adrian to win the tournament not only because that is my school, but so that the presidents of the schools may rethink their new  craptastic plan for a conference tournament.

It is not about if the lower seed can win the tourney.  If the history of this league shows anything, it is that dropping the 5-8 seeds is a pretty safe bet.  It is about making it financially viable.  Go out and get all your friends, classmates or alumni to get up and go to the games, and then they can rethink it.  Fans had the chance to do so last night and the numbers just weren't there.  If the fans don't care enough, why should the institution?

Northb it has nothing to do with attendance, it is strictly a throw all the sports in the pot except for fb and do the same tournament structure.  Also they say if a low seed i.e. 01 bulldogs won the tournament then it would have diminished the championship of 1 seed Calvin from that year.  This was part of the explanation by the commishioner to me when I asked him why this was happening.  Sac summed up the rest of this.

It has nothing to do with the attendance and I already explained the poor following for Adrian last night which you must have omitted to read that we have been hit hard down here by a winter storm that consisted of 4 inches of ice and most peiole were still without power last night so the main concern of people here was keeping their families warm and pipes from freezing.  And I already admitted that Adrian much like all MIAA schools not named Calvin or Hope has a problem getting big crowds.  This is no secret and could be found on the MIAA website under the attendance.  

The change in format is not just eliminating the the 5-8 seeds, it is a step in the wrong direction for the  league

Dude! Ease up.....I'm not interested in getting into an argument with you.  I'm not saying you did not present the information you noted.  I think you may have read someting into my post that was not there (now I know what SAC feels like!).  It is safe to assume that if I quoted your post within mine, that I did read it.
Like realist noted, what the official reasons noted for this and what the actual reasons are might be different.  In regard to attendance, the weather was fine here in GR, and even the schools named Calvin and Hope did not put very big numbers in the seats.    Regardless, what IS the remedy to the situation?  If it WAS about attendance, the fans could do something to change that (i.e., go buy tickets all year long).  If it is about foolish consistency, as some have noted, what is the suggested remedy?  How about a sit-in like Wisconsin or Egypt?

[realist]

+ k NB.

Exactly.  If one were to ask all 8/9 presidents that voted on this issue one might learn there were 8/9 reasons why they voted the way they did.  Vote a year from now, and the vote might well change.   Go to any D-1 campus and you don't have to dig very hard to see the bickering between the revenue "generating", and the revenue "depleting" sports.

[sac]

watch out!! (note to self included) The all-empowering Karma vultures are out today.

Indeed they are.

[Adrian Hoops Fan]

Adrian had maybe 15 people who made the trip, all of them probably relatives.  No students from Adrian that I could see.   It was a very disappointing turnout for the Bulldogs.

Olivet had what at this point I'll call their standard home crowd, the bleachers looked as full as they usually have minus the empty visitor section.  And no band for some reason.

Adrian doesn't have the greatest following for hoops especially on the road, but Adrian and the surrounding area was hammered with ice on Sunday night with over half of the county out of power and down trees and power lines all over the place, and to make matters worse, we got 4 inches of snow on top of that on Monday.  The great news for us now is that after midnight we are supposed to get 4-8 inches of snow with sleet mixed in.  So for this time only, I will give the students a pass on their lack of support.  Best of luck to the remaining 4.  

I personally as wishing for Adrian to win the tournament not only because that is my school, but so that the presidents of the schools may rethink their new  craptastic plan for a conference tournament.

It is not about if the lower seed can win the tourney.  If the history of this league shows anything, it is that dropping the 5-8 seeds is a pretty safe bet.  It is about making it financially viable.  Go out and get all your friends, classmates or alumni to get up and go to the games, and then they can rethink it.  Fans had the chance to do so last night and the numbers just weren't there.  If the fans don't care enough, why should the institution?

Northb it has nothing to do with attendance, it is strictly a throw all the sports in the pot except for fb and do the same tournament structure.  Also they say if a low seed i.e. 01 bulldogs won the tournament then it would have diminished the championship of 1 seed Calvin from that year.  This was part of the explanation by the commishioner to me when I asked him why this was happening.  Sac summed up the rest of this.

It has nothing to do with the attendance and I already explained the poor following for Adrian last night which you must have omitted to read that we have been hit hard down here by a winter storm that consisted of 4 inches of ice and most peiole were still without power last night so the main concern of people here was keeping their families warm and pipes from freezing.  And I already admitted that Adrian much like all MIAA schools not named Calvin or Hope has a problem getting big crowds.  This is no secret and could be found on the MIAA website under the attendance.  

The change in format is not just eliminating the the 5-8 seeds, it is a step in the wrong direction for the  league

Dude! Ease up.....I'm not interested in getting into an argument with you.  I'm not saying you did not present the information you noted.  I think you may have read someting into my post that was not there (now I know what SAC feels like!).  It is safe to assume that if I quoted your post within mine, that I did read it.
Like realist noted, what the official reasons noted for this and what the actual reasons are might be different.  In regard to attendance, the weather was fine here in GR, and even the schools named Calvin and Hope did not put very big numbers in the seats.    Regardless, what IS the remedy to the situation?  If it WAS about attendance, the fans could do something to change that (i.e., go buy tickets all year long).  If it is about foolish consistency, as some have noted, what is the suggested remedy?  How about a sit-in like Wisconsin or Egypt?

The point of the matter is if you aren't here trying to start an argument don't attach my quote and then talk about it like it is an Adrian only problem, that is exactly why I responded in the way I did.  It doesn't have everything to do with the lower seeds winningc but that is exactly what would spark the conversation to get enough questions to the presidents to discuss whether they did the right thing or not.  No need for you to take get worked up about me questioning whether or not you read about last nights poor attendance by Adrian fans.

[Gregory Sager]

If they really wanted to "further increase  the significance of MIAA regular season play......."  why didn't they just eliminate the tornaments completely?

Because allowing for a tournament to decide the AQ increase your chances for multiple NCAA bids.

Not always. It could also penalize a Pool C bubble team by forcing an extra 0-1 or 1-1 onto its regular-season record. Yeah, sometimes it works in favor of multiple NCAA berths (e.g., your example of Hope in the MIAA this season), but sometimes it's counterproductive.

Ziggy and I estimated 14 conferences would earn multiple bids through last weekend.

We'll see how many of those 14 lose a bid due to a loss in their tourney vs. how many gain an extra bid via an upset.

Just saying that it's not a universal truth, that's all.

[Mr. Ypsi]

If they really wanted to "further increase  the significance of MIAA regular season play......."  why didn't they just eliminate the tornaments completely?

Because allowing for a tournament to decide the AQ increase your chances for multiple NCAA bids.

Not always. It could also penalize a Pool C bubble team by forcing an extra 0-1 or 1-1 onto its regular-season record. Yeah, sometimes it works in favor of multiple NCAA berths (e.g., your example of Hope in the MIAA this season), but sometimes it's counterproductive.

Ziggy and I estimated 14 conferences would earn multiple bids through last weekend.

We'll see how many of those 14 lose a bid due to a loss in their tourney vs. how many gain an extra bid via an upset.

Just saying that it's not a universal truth, that's all.

THIS year in the CCIW, the conference tourney IS our only hope for two teams (everyone but Augie has been 'dead meat' for a C for some weeks now).  But I recall years where a team was a viable C candidate until they got that extra loss in the tourney.

It is not a clear-cut situation - it can go either way.

[KnightSlappy]

If they really wanted to "further increase  the significance of MIAA regular season play......."  why didn't they just eliminate the tornaments completely?

Because allowing for a tournament to decide the AQ increase your chances for multiple NCAA bids.

Not always. It could also penalize a Pool C bubble team by forcing an extra 0-1 or 1-1 onto its regular-season record. Yeah, sometimes it works in favor of multiple NCAA berths (e.g., your example of Hope in the MIAA this season), but sometimes it's counterproductive.

Ziggy and I estimated 14 conferences would earn multiple bids through last weekend.

We'll see how many of those 14 lose a bid due to a loss in their tourney vs. how many gain an extra bid via an upset.

Just saying that it's not a universal truth, that's all.

Just saying that I'm intrigued by questions like this, so I'll look for it, that's all. 

[HopeConvert]

I don't think the UAA has a conference tourney (there cost does seem to be a factor), but they often get multiple teams in the tourney. An interesting point of comparison perhaps.

[Gregory Sager]

I don't think the UAA has a conference tourney (there cost does seem to be a factor), but they often get multiple teams in the tourney. An interesting point of comparison perhaps.

The UAA is the only league in D3 that doesn't have a tourney, but, believe me, cost is not a factor. There are countries in Africa whose annual GDP does not equal the endowment of a UAA school.

[KnightSlappy]

I don't think the UAA has a conference tourney (there cost does seem to be a factor), but they often get multiple teams in the tourney. An interesting point of comparison perhaps.

The UAA is the only league in D3 that doesn't have a tourney, but, believe me, cost is not a factor. There are countries in Africa whose annual GDP does not equal the endowment of a UAA school.

And no, Greg's not joking. Wikipedia is reporting endowments in the billions for some UAA schools. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

I don't think the UAA has a conference tourney (there cost does seem to be a factor), but they often get multiple teams in the tourney. An interesting point of comparison perhaps.

The UAA is the only league in D3 that doesn't have a tourney, but, believe me, cost is not a factor. There are countries in Africa whose annual GDP does not equal the endowment of a UAA school.

And no, Greg's not joking. Wikipedia is reporting endowments in the billions for some UAA schools. 

Apples and oranges.

The schools obviously could all afford it, but their athletics budgets are often no bigger than most other d3 schools.

CCIW Chat (that will always be the thread's name to me!) posters were generally against the tourney when it first came about in 2006.  As I recall the sentiment, the CCIW often had 2-3 teams anyway, which meant the tourney winner would more often than not have been in anyway, but everyone else would take a hit in their pool C chances.  Some posters were torn, recognizing that would probably be true, but the tourney would be FUN.

This is the first year in a while that the tourney is the ONLY hope for more than 1 team in the national tourney.

[KnightSlappy]

I don't think the UAA has a conference tourney (there cost does seem to be a factor), but they often get multiple teams in the tourney. An interesting point of comparison perhaps.

The UAA is the only league in D3 that doesn't have a tourney, but, believe me, cost is not a factor. There are countries in Africa whose annual GDP does not equal the endowment of a UAA school.

And no, Greg's not joking. Wikipedia is reporting endowments in the billions for some UAA schools. 

Apples and oranges.

The schools obviously could all afford it, but their athletics budgets are often no bigger than most other d3 schools.

CCIW Chat (that will always be the thread's name to me!) posters were generally against the tourney when it first came about in 2006.  As I recall the sentiment, the CCIW often had 2-3 teams anyway, which meant the tourney winner would more often than not have been in anyway, but everyone else would take a hit in their pool C chances.  Some posters were torn, recognizing that would probably be true, but the tourney would be FUN.

This is the first year in a while that the tourney is the ONLY hope for more than 1 team in the national tourney.

That's true. When it comes to tourney or no tourney, it comes down to whether or not you expect to have multiple bids anyway. If so, you wouldn't "need" a tournament. If not, you would probably want one. But, I think most fans agree that it is fun.