MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[formerd3db]

sac:
Did I miss something? Jeremy Veenstra? or do you mean Mark Veenstra?

[oldknight]

sac:
Did I miss something? Jeremy Veenstra? or do you mean Mark Veenstra?

Sac did correctly note that Jeremy is a two time MVP. I wouldn't categorize Mark Veenstra the same way unless you want to say Mark won two awards . . . and then won two more--a double-double not seen before or since. Sac's getting old but he's not so old to remember Mark Veenstra.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

sac:
Did I miss something? Jeremy Veenstra? or do you mean Mark Veenstra?

Sac did correctly note that Jeremy is a two time MVP. I wouldn't categorize Mark Veenstra the same way unless you want to say Mark won two awards . . . and then won two more--a double-double not seen before or since. Sac's getting old but he's not so old to remember Mark Veenstra.

He also used the qualifier "recent".  Nott sure anyone would consider Mark a recent player.

[BogeyMan]

Let's talk defense!  Would MM make the all-league defensive team?  I know Bowser would.  Will was one of the better defensive players I've seen this year.  When you can play as many minutes as he did with the type of offense Hope runs and still play the tough defense without being in foul trouble, you would have to admire his defense as much as his offense.  I know I will hear from the critics about MM's minutes, yes he did play a lot of minutes also, but not with the intensity at both ends of the floor like Will did.   Don't get me wrong, Bowser was not a good defensive player because of his minutes, but his defense was so intense the entire time he played I thought he was absolutely one of the best defensive players in the league.

No I am not a Hope or Calvin fan so don't go there.  

I hope I did not do another "birth" instead of "berth" this post!

[Busted Stuff]

I will preface by saying that I think WB and MM should be co-MVP's.  They are both absolute studs, and I don't think enough has been said about each of their admirable behaviors on the court!  I know I would have been thrilled to have either one leading my team!

With that said, I don't think you can discount McClary's value at Olivet because of his team's record.  IMO, this year's Olivet team is irrelevant in terms of competing for a conference title without McClary.  Who knows, maybe they were irrelevant with him? But probably not...

The same, however, I don't think can be said about Hope and Will Bowser.  Don't get me wrong, Bowser is an incredibly valuable player (like I said, I think he should have won MVP as well), but I still think Hope is a better overall team without him and they probably would compete for the conference title even without him; at least I feel more so than Olivet without MM.

Thus, I personally don't think you can count the MVP purely on a team's record. (I thought Miguel Cabrera should have won the MVP last year over Josh Hamilton!)

I know my arguments are purely hypothetical, but I think both players' value to his individual team can not be measured to its fullest extent merely tangibly by way statistics.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Sorry that some of this is a repeat of earlier info, but here is my statistical summary of Hope and Hanover:

Offense	% 2pt	% 3pt	% FT
Hope	52.6	37.1	74.8
Hanover	55	34.8	69.4
Defense	% 2pt	% 3pt
Hope	49.6	36.2
Hanover	52.6	32.4
Rebounding	Team	Opp	Margin
Hope	35.6	32.8	2.8
Hanover	31.7	28.2	3.5
Scoring	Team	Opp	Margin
Hope	80.4	71.5	8.9
Hanover	69.6	64.6	5.0
3 point shooting	Attempts	Made	Made/game
Hope	485	180	6.4
Hanover	442	154	5.9
Blocks	Total	per game
Hope	111	4.0
Hanover	58	2.2
Steals	Total	per game
Hope	280	10.0
Hanover	150	5.8
Turnovers	Total	per game
Hope	360	12.9
Hanover	306	11.8
Assists	Total	per game
Hope	444	15.9
Hanover	276	10.6
Assist/Turnover
Hope	1.23
Hanover	0.90

[HopeConvert]

With that said, I don't think you can discount McClary's value at Olivet because of his team's record.  IMO, this year's Olivet team is irrelevant in terms of competing for a conference title without McClary.  Who knows, maybe they were irrelevant with him? But probably not...

The same, however, I don't think can be said about Hope and Will Bowser.  Don't get me wrong, Bowser is an incredibly valuable player (like I said, I think he should have won MVP as well), but I still think Hope is a better overall team without him and they probably would compete for the conference title even without him; at least I feel more so than Olivet without MM.

I respectfully disagree. Hope would have been a middle-of-the-pack team this year without Will. I don't think they would have finished much above .500.

[HopeConvert]

Bowser on the other hand averaged 21.5 ppg in legaue play, that is the most points a Hope player has averaged in league play since Don Shinabarger in the 1972 season. And he was able to do this in 15 shots per game, about 5 less then McClary was averaging. And based on the talk of this board and the season outlook after Hope lost the whole kitchen in terms of personnel, Bowser literally put the team on his back and carried Hope to an extremely convincing conference championship and conference tournament championship, his fourth in a row! How many hope players can say they led their team to four straight AQ's?

I know Will has beefed up since his freshman year, but not that much.

[sac]

Let's talk defense!  Would MM make the all-league defensive team?

As much as I've admired watching MM he's not a great defensive player.  But when he's challenged, such as when Joe Prepolec and Kzoo came to Olivet, he really stepped up his defensive abilities.  That night, neither one of those two could stop each other despite both playing what I thought was pretty good defense, they were just 'on'.

Kzoo and maybe Hope a little were the only two teams that I think really went after McClary, most of the time I think teams shied away from him.  He's still a good shot blocker I just don't think he had many opportunities this year.  His almost complete lack of fouling for someone who plays 35 min probably speaks to his timid defensive nature.  Its possible his coaches felt he was too valuable to have get in foul trouble and just told him to make sure he stays on the floor.

His best defensive assets seemed to be as a shot blocking threat, and as a defensive rebound machine.



For me its too difficult to pick an all-defensive team without seeing ALL the games, but a couple guys who stood out to me this year not previously mentioned  Dennis Mason-Adrian, Kolin Kazan-Albion.

[sac]

Going backwards in time.....

some really great shots of the Hope/Calvin Championship game from hope.edu
http://www.hope.edu/pr/athletics/mbb/1011miaatngallery.html

[HopeConvert]

For more pictures, you can also check out:

http://pauldeboode.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=203459

He's really terrific, by the way. He did our children's senior pictures and did a great job. He even got our son to smile for the camera.

[ziggy]

Going backwards in time.....

some really great shots of the Hope/Calvin Championship game from hope.edu
http://www.hope.edu/pr/athletics/mbb/1011miaatngallery.html

The photos from the rafters are pretty sweet

[sac]

Going backwards in time.....

some really great shots of the Hope/Calvin Championship game from hope.edu
http://www.hope.edu/pr/athletics/mbb/1011miaatngallery.html

The photos from the rafters are pretty sweet

Someday I hope to say video from the rafters looks pretty sweet.

[DBQ1965]

I'm thankful for MIAA b-ball posters on here because it gives me some good reading while I wait for IIAC football in the Fall.

[oldknight]

Acccording to Calvin's sports headline of today, Tom and Carrie Snikkers is the first brother/sister combo in MIAA history to receive All-MIAA first team honors in men's/women's basketball.