MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Bob MacKenzie]

Ultimately I think the question will come down to economics.  All the other issues (culture, injuries, title IX, etc.) make for interesting discussion, but the bottom line will be revenue.  And I'm not talking about ticket revenue here. (Even Calvin basketball undoubtedly loses money, btw.  I'd bet that over half of the fans at any given game are students or faculty/staff and their families and they attend for free.  Just look at the drop off in attendance when it becomes tournament time and everyone has to pay the MIAA or NCAA.)  It's about net tuition revenue.  If, by adding football, Calvin is confident it can add enough tuition paying students to more than offset the costs (several coaches' salaries, uniforms, trainers, travel, insurance, etc.) I believe it will get the green light.  But I personally think that in today's higher ed economic environment, that's going to be a tough sell--which is why I'd be surprised if it happens this time.

One of the advantages of living through more than one generation is having the opportunity to experience similar weak arguments one thought had been retired long ago. I'm old enough to remember when none of the traditional feeder schools to Calvin had football. Going by dim memory, GR South Christian was the first local Christian high school to get football followed soon after by GR Christian (actually Central Christian and East Christian). At the time some "conservatives" objected to football (that included my parents) because they feared the "change in culture" that would flow from the acquisition of football as well as the violence of the sport. The Chimes writer doesn't express concerns exactly as I remember them when I was a kid, but his aren't all that different either--and no more persuasive. It's surprising that in today's world, with pretty much every student at Knollcrest having attended a high school with football, there would be much objection to starting the sport at Calvin. Right now, if a high school student is capable of and interested in playing D3 football, Calvin is simply not an option. My son was a good enough high school football player to get more than one recruiting letter from Dean Kreps (imagine the sight of oldknight in the Hope cheering section at Holland Stadium--yikes!). If Calvin had football available I can't say he would have become a Knight but I think he would have considered it, especially if I could have lined him up with a quality professor from the computer science department. My son recently expressed what I interpreted as regret for not having pursued that avenue. The availability of football might have been enough to bring him to the East Beltline.

[Gregory Sager]

On the national level, the Learfield Cup standings through end of winter sports:

http://thedirectorscup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/DIII-Complete-Release-for-March-311.pdf

Calvin #4, Hope #41

I haven't kept a real close eye on things in the spring season, but possible points for Calvin in men's golf and track&field?

Calvin is currently in 4th place with 599.75 points. Williams leads with 719.5 points.

Golf is currently in 34th place, which would be good for about 30 points. The outdoor track and field teams are sending several athletes to nationals, so we'll probably pick up some points there too.

To catch up with the Williamses of the world, we're going to need not only football but also fencing, skiing, M&W ice hockey, . . .

... polo, squash, yachting, ballroom dancing, wine-tasting, croquet, fox hunting ...

[Flying Dutch Fan]

On the national level, the Learfield Cup standings through end of winter sports:

http://thedirectorscup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/DIII-Complete-Release-for-March-311.pdf

Calvin #4, Hope #41

I haven't kept a real close eye on things in the spring season, but possible points for Calvin in men's golf and track&field?

Calvin is currently in 4th place with 599.75 points. Williams leads with 719.5 points.

Golf is currently in 34th place, which would be good for about 30 points. The outdoor track and field teams are sending several athletes to nationals, so we'll probably pick up some points there too.

To catch up with the Williamses of the world, we're going to need not only football but also fencing, skiing, M&W ice hockey, . . .

... polo, squash, yachting, ballroom dancing, wine-tasting, croquet, fox hunting ...

Are those all combined for some kind of high-brow, snobby heptathalon?

[Gregory Sager]

On the national level, the Learfield Cup standings through end of winter sports:

http://thedirectorscup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/DIII-Complete-Release-for-March-311.pdf

Calvin #4, Hope #41

I haven't kept a real close eye on things in the spring season, but possible points for Calvin in men's golf and track&field?

Calvin is currently in 4th place with 599.75 points. Williams leads with 719.5 points.

Golf is currently in 34th place, which would be good for about 30 points. The outdoor track and field teams are sending several athletes to nationals, so we'll probably pick up some points there too.

To catch up with the Williamses of the world, we're going to need not only football but also fencing, skiing, M&W ice hockey, . . .

... polo, squash, yachting, ballroom dancing, wine-tasting, croquet, fox hunting ...

Are those all combined for some kind of high-brow, snobby heptathalon?

That would lessen the ability of the Williamses of the world to dominate the Learfield Cup, because by condensing all of those events into one big snooty package you're reducing the chances for Biff and Chip and Muffy and the rest of the swells to score points in multiple sports.

(Although I love the idea of an upper-crust version of the biathlon. Instead of a cross-country skier stopping at intervals to shoot at targets with a rifle, you could have one that involved an athlete shooting skeet with a shotgun while leaning out of the back window of a Rolls-Royce and sipping sherry.)

[sac]

Ultimately I think the question will come down to economics.  All the other issues (culture, injuries, title IX, etc.) make for interesting discussion, but the bottom line will be revenue.  And I'm not talking about ticket revenue here. (Even Calvin basketball undoubtedly loses money, btw.  I'd bet that over half of the fans at any given game are students or faculty/staff and their families and they attend for free.  Just look at the drop off in attendance when it becomes tournament time and everyone has to pay the MIAA or NCAA.)  It's about net tuition revenue.  If, by adding football, Calvin is confident it can add enough tuition paying students to more than offset the costs (several coaches' salaries, uniforms, trainers, travel, insurance, etc.) I believe it will get the green light.  But I personally think that in today's higher ed economic environment, that's going to be a tough sell--which is why I'd be surprised if it happens this time.

I'm not sure the economics arguments is even valid anymore.  Right here in our state schools are adding football,  Concordia and Sienna Heights.  I seriously doubt either of those two schools is going to add enough students to cover the costs of football.


......add Finlandia to the list of Michigan schools that have added football.

[KnightSlappy]

Ultimately I think the question will come down to economics.  All the other issues (culture, injuries, title IX, etc.) make for interesting discussion, but the bottom line will be revenue.  And I'm not talking about ticket revenue here. (Even Calvin basketball undoubtedly loses money, btw.  I'd bet that over half of the fans at any given game are students or faculty/staff and their families and they attend for free.  Just look at the drop off in attendance when it becomes tournament time and everyone has to pay the MIAA or NCAA.)  It's about net tuition revenue.  If, by adding football, Calvin is confident it can add enough tuition paying students to more than offset the costs (several coaches' salaries, uniforms, trainers, travel, insurance, etc.) I believe it will get the green light.  But I personally think that in today's higher ed economic environment, that's going to be a tough sell--which is why I'd be surprised if it happens this time.

One of the advantages of living through more than one generation is having the opportunity to experience similar weak arguments one thought had been retired long ago. I'm old enough to remember when none of the traditional feeder schools to Calvin had football. Going by dim memory, GR South Christian was the first local Christian high school to get football followed soon after by GR Christian (actually Central Christian and East Christian). At the time some "conservatives" objected to football (that included my parents) because they feared the "change in culture" that would flow from the acquisition of football as well as the violence of the sport. The Chimes writer doesn't express concerns exactly as I remember them when I was a kid, but his aren't all that different either--and no more persuasive. It's surprising that in today's world, with pretty much every student at Knollcrest having attended a high school with football, there would be much objection to starting the sport at Calvin. Right now, if a high school student is capable of and interested in playing D3 football, Calvin is simply not an option. My son was a good enough high school football player to get more than one recruiting letter from Dean Kreps (imagine the sight of oldknight in the Hope cheering section at Holland Stadium--yikes!). If Calvin had football available I can't say he would have become a Knight but I think he would have considered it, especially if I could have lined him up with a quality professor from the computer science department. My son recently expressed what I interpreted as regret for not having pursued that avenue. The availability of football might have been enough to bring him to the East Beltline.

Just to add some numbers to the discussion: can football attract even 50 extra kids per year? If it could, Calvin would see a boost in tuition dollars in excess of $1.2 million. (based on 2010-11 tuition of $24,645)

[sac]

It seems as though this past year's Calvin softball clinic was not a success. The high schoolers that participated apparently couldn't team the Knights enough to put them in a position to more adequately contribute to the college's commissioner cup race.

Conversely, I don't think Hope's softball team was expected to do much but finished 2nd.  I don't think they do a pre-season softball poll but I can't imagine Hope would have been picked ahead of Alma, Adrian or Trine.  I think you could find 5 points of difference in what was probably expected between the Hope and Calvin's softball teams.

Despite winning just a share of the Men's track title as their only spring championship, Hope had a very good spring sports season.  Probably better than was expected.

[sac]

Commissioner's Cup Scores: 1. Hope 206. 2. Calvin 202. 3. Albion 132. 4. Adrian 125. 5. Alma 113. 6. Kalamazoo 98. 7. Olivet 95. 8. Trine 91.

Men's All-Sports Standings: 1. Calvin 96. 2. Hope 94. 3. Adrian 66. 4. Albion 61. 5. Trine 52. 6. Kalamazoo 47. 7. Alma 41. 8. Olivet 37.

Women's All-Sports Standings: 1. Hope 112. 2. Calvin 106. 3. Alma 72. 4. Albion 71. 5. Saint Mary's 69. 6. Adrian 59. 7. Olivet 58. 8. Kalamazoo 51. 9. Trine 39.

I highlighted Adrian's men's finish....I'm pretty sure this is Adrian's best men's performance in a long time.  I could be wrong.

[goodknight]

KVS quietly is adding some more potential weapons for the Calvin basketball program. 

Josh Chamberlain, a 5-10 point guard from Maranatha Christian in Pasadena, CA, is coming east to wear the maroon-and-gold uniform. He averaged 17 ppg his senior year.
http://www.maxpreps.com/athletes/j6c2vSZ62UGNdJ3bszEMfw/basketball-winter-10-11/stats-josh-chamberlain.htm

And Mickey DeVries, a 6-7 forward from Lansing (MI) Christian, is transferring to Calvin from Wheaton College, where he spent his freshman year, playing sparingly on the varsity after an outstanding high school career.  DeVries was heavily recruited by Wheaton and Calvin, among others.
http://athletics.wheaton.edu/roster.aspx?rp_id=2441&path=mbball

[Bob MacKenzie]

Ultimately I think the question will come down to economics.  All the other issues (culture, injuries, title IX, etc.) make for interesting discussion, but the bottom line will be revenue.  And I'm not talking about ticket revenue here. (Even Calvin basketball undoubtedly loses money, btw.  I'd bet that over half of the fans at any given game are students or faculty/staff and their families and they attend for free.  Just look at the drop off in attendance when it becomes tournament time and everyone has to pay the MIAA or NCAA.)  It's about net tuition revenue.  If, by adding football, Calvin is confident it can add enough tuition paying students to more than offset the costs (several coaches' salaries, uniforms, trainers, travel, insurance, etc.) I believe it will get the green light.  But I personally think that in today's higher ed economic environment, that's going to be a tough sell--which is why I'd be surprised if it happens this time.

One of the advantages of living through more than one generation is having the opportunity to experience similar weak arguments one thought had been retired long ago. I'm old enough to remember when none of the traditional feeder schools to Calvin had football. Going by dim memory, GR South Christian was the first local Christian high school to get football followed soon after by GR Christian (actually Central Christian and East Christian). At the time some "conservatives" objected to football (that included my parents) because they feared the "change in culture" that would flow from the acquisition of football as well as the violence of the sport. The Chimes writer doesn't express concerns exactly as I remember them when I was a kid, but his aren't all that different either--and no more persuasive. It's surprising that in today's world, with pretty much every student at Knollcrest having attended a high school with football, there would be much objection to starting the sport at Calvin. Right now, if a high school student is capable of and interested in playing D3 football, Calvin is simply not an option. My son was a good enough high school football player to get more than one recruiting letter from Dean Kreps (imagine the sight of oldknight in the Hope cheering section at Holland Stadium--yikes!). If Calvin had football available I can't say he would have become a Knight but I think he would have considered it, especially if I could have lined him up with a quality professor from the computer science department. My son recently expressed what I interpreted as regret for not having pursued that avenue. The availability of football might have been enough to bring him to the East Beltline.

Just to add some numbers to the discussion: can football attract even 50 extra kids per year? If it could, Calvin would see a boost in tuition dollars in excess of $1.2 million. (based on 2010-11 tuition of $24,645)

See if you can find out what Calvin's average per student NET tuition revenue is after institutionally funded scholarships,  grants, etc.  Maybe $15,000?  (Unless you go with the conventional wisdom that football players are poor students --I'm sure it's been brought up in the committee).  If you go with an average net of $15K,  50 extra students would add $750K.  Subtract the salaries and benefits of 4 full time coaches (who probably won't teach), a handful of part timers, an additional trainer, travel costs to 5 away games, game and practice field maintenance, officials...).  The addition to the bottom line won't be much more than a blip. 

[KnightSlappy]

Ultimately I think the question will come down to economics.  All the other issues (culture, injuries, title IX, etc.) make for interesting discussion, but the bottom line will be revenue.  And I'm not talking about ticket revenue here. (Even Calvin basketball undoubtedly loses money, btw.  I'd bet that over half of the fans at any given game are students or faculty/staff and their families and they attend for free.  Just look at the drop off in attendance when it becomes tournament time and everyone has to pay the MIAA or NCAA.)  It's about net tuition revenue.  If, by adding football, Calvin is confident it can add enough tuition paying students to more than offset the costs (several coaches' salaries, uniforms, trainers, travel, insurance, etc.) I believe it will get the green light.  But I personally think that in today's higher ed economic environment, that's going to be a tough sell--which is why I'd be surprised if it happens this time.

One of the advantages of living through more than one generation is having the opportunity to experience similar weak arguments one thought had been retired long ago. I'm old enough to remember when none of the traditional feeder schools to Calvin had football. Going by dim memory, GR South Christian was the first local Christian high school to get football followed soon after by GR Christian (actually Central Christian and East Christian). At the time some "conservatives" objected to football (that included my parents) because they feared the "change in culture" that would flow from the acquisition of football as well as the violence of the sport. The Chimes writer doesn't express concerns exactly as I remember them when I was a kid, but his aren't all that different either--and no more persuasive. It's surprising that in today's world, with pretty much every student at Knollcrest having attended a high school with football, there would be much objection to starting the sport at Calvin. Right now, if a high school student is capable of and interested in playing D3 football, Calvin is simply not an option. My son was a good enough high school football player to get more than one recruiting letter from Dean Kreps (imagine the sight of oldknight in the Hope cheering section at Holland Stadium--yikes!). If Calvin had football available I can't say he would have become a Knight but I think he would have considered it, especially if I could have lined him up with a quality professor from the computer science department. My son recently expressed what I interpreted as regret for not having pursued that avenue. The availability of football might have been enough to bring him to the East Beltline.

Just to add some numbers to the discussion: can football attract even 50 extra kids per year? If it could, Calvin would see a boost in tuition dollars in excess of $1.2 million. (based on 2010-11 tuition of $24,645)

See if you can find out what Calvin's average per student NET tuition revenue is after institutionally funded scholarships,  grants, etc.  Maybe $15,000?  (Unless you go with the conventional wisdom that football players are poor students --I'm sure it's been brought up in the committee).  If you go with an average net of $15K,  50 extra students would add $750K.  Subtract the salaries and benefits of 4 full time coaches (who probably won't teach), a handful of part timers, an additional trainer, travel costs to 5 away games, game and practice field maintenance, officials...).  The addition to the bottom line won't be much more than a blip. 

A little perusing and number crunching, and I come up with something just north of $17,300 per student. So, yeah, at 50 additional students, we're talking $865K or so.

[sac]

Retirement has its benefits

[realist]

What happens if Calvin adds football, incurs all the associated start up costs etc., and enrollment stays flat.  As a small business owner IMHO Calvin adding football is extremely difficult to justify from a cost/benefit/risk analysis.  One can't assume any bump in enrollment would be automatically connected to having added football.  To keep costs in line Calvin has aggressively cut costs, reduced staff etc.  I just don't think adding a major cost item in a football program would be well recieved by the greater Calvin community.  Even at b reak even it is not a wise use of limited resources.  
BTY sending something to a "study committee" is good way to send something off to die a slow painful death.

[KnightSlappy]

What happens if Calvin adds football, incurs all the associated start up costs etc., and enrollment stays flat.  As a small business owner IMHO Calvin adding football is extremely difficult to justify from a cost/benefit/risk analysis.  One can't assume any bump in enrollment would be automatically connected to having added football.  To keep costs in line Calvin has aggressively cut costs, reduced staff etc.  I just don't think adding a major cost item in a football program would be well recieved by the greater Calvin community.  Even at b reak even it is not a wise use of limited resources.  
BTY sending something to a "study committee" is good way to send something off to die a slow painful death.

A football roster is what, 70 kids or more? How many would have come to Calvin anyway, and how many would go elswhere to play? Maybe one-third would have come anyway and two-thirds really wanted to play football?

There's an extra 40 or 50 students right there.

I have a hard time believing that adding football would negatively impact enrollment for the general student population that is already coming, so adding football would "have to" have a positive effect on numbers.

[realist]

I don't think that adding football would negatively impact Calvin's enrollment unless by adding football it became necessary to increase tuition to cover the costs of having added football.  The key issue is how many incremental students is Calvin going to get because it added football?
It is also necessary to know what the costs of operating a football program are, and also you need to know what other costs the college incurs by adding a student.  One can't assume that any increased revenue generated by adding a "footbasll" student can automatically be totaly assigned to offsetting the costs of operating the football program. 

Rather than adds sports Calvin could improve it's Commish,  Learfield etc. cup results by making sure the teams it already has perform to the highest levels.  Looking at the roster of teams that made post season play this past school year there is one team that is conspicuously absent.  Just like it has been for too many years.