MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Gregory Sager]

In order to be more inclusive, it seemed meet and proper to see if Scripture references Hornets or Stinger, since one can look in vain for mentions of Dutchmen, flying or grounded, and Knights in the Holy Book.

There are in fact three appearances of hornets, all in the Old Testament, and then there's this cameo for Stinger in the plural form in the very last book of the New Testament:

They had tails with STINGERS, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.
-- Revelation 9:9-11

and the word Hope is in the NIV 159 times.  No other MIAA school is mentioned

True, although Alma has its own entire book within the Book of Mormon.

Whatever happened to mote? Miss that word.

I think that people would still be using that word if it appeared in the newer translations with regard to Matthew 7:3. But since it's only in the dusty ol' King James Version, the point is mote.

[Gregory Sager]

Whitby should be playing for Calvin, he grew up a stone's throw away from campus!  Is it appropriate to say that Adrian has made a conscious effort to recruit a "different type" student athlete, who can enhance their program and school?  D1 transfers, community college attendee's, second chance athletes?   Each athlete has their own story but the trend is becoming relatively clear.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this, hoopdreams, in spite of what it appeared to me that you're insinuating (and the fact that the initial phrase of your last sentence reeked of CYA-speak). But would you please clarify what you mean by "different type of student-athlete"? And could you please explain how D1 transfers, juco transfers, and "second-chance athletes" all fit within that rubric?

[hoopdreams]

I wasn't implying anything.  A large number of their current players are transfers from either a CC or another level other than d3.  Without doing the legwork, I'm guessing the most of the other schools in the MIAA don't have near the amount of transfers or kids who have taken time off (for whatever reason).  And I didn't imply or state that it was a bad thing, it took me 11 years to complete my degree!.  If kids enroll and qualify, they can go where ever the heck they want. I wish more athletes would choose to pursue a quality education somewhere other than Hope/Calvin.  From a hoops perspective, it would make the conference a hell of a lot more interesting.  Never would have thought, after watching hundreds of Hope games over the years, a Grace-Kuyper College matchup is more appealing.

Looking back,I do suppose my statement could have come across as sterotypical, this I regret.  And quite possibly Coach White doesn't recruit at all but word has gotten around that he is more open to student-athletes who are looking for a change/second chance/rebirth, etc...than other MIAA schools. 

The best example of my initial post is Whitby, who was an o7 grad from a Grand Rapids school, who went the a CC, who is still only a junior, who could have chosen from numerous local schools- Calvin, Hope, Cornerstone, AQ, Grace Bible, Kuyper or GVSU within a piss of his high school, yet he ended up in Adrian?  FWIW, I know Brad and I know the turmoil his family has endured, so maybe getting away was the best thing for him...... I quite possibly just answered my own initial thought

[Mr. Ypsi]

Knowing NOTHING of the situation, I suspect you are right with your last sentence.  For many students, getting away from home (even if it is idyllic) IS an important part of 'growing up'.

It is almost a cliche in college ranks that many students select a school that is close enough for parental visits (or game attendance, if an athlete), but far enough away that they will not come TOO often!

[Gregory Sager]

I'm just sensitive to the implication, intended or otherwise, that a transfer student is somehow damaged goods. Not that I was one myself, as I started and finished at North Park with no other stops in between. But NPU, as is typical of a school located in a major city, gets a large number of transfer students every year. (The same holds true for DePaul, Loyola, Roosevelt, etc.) Aside from that, NPU views serving transfer students as a conscious part of its mission, in that it: a) holds to the school's desire to consider its geographical community as a constituent group; and b) recognizes the school's heritage (North Park was a junior college until it converted to a four-year school in 1957).

Those who are trying to overcome a rough start in the classroom at some four-year school by enrolling at a juco in order to bring up their grades are a tiny minority. And the number of juco students who enrolled there because it was their only academic alternative (i.e., they weren't accepted anywhere else) isn't as large as you might think, either. By far, the largest reason why a student (athlete or otherwise) attends a juco nowadays is to save money. Private colleges are ridiculously expensive, as I think we all know, and I think that we all know as well that in the current economic climate a lot of people don't have the extra dollars to spare on four years of a private-college education. Two years at a private college, preceded by two years at a juco whose coursework will be accepted by the four-year school as counting towards a bachelor's degree, seems more prudent to a lot of people.

Juco basketball players often represent a different breed entirely, as many were perfectly competent students in high school who felt that they were good enough to get a basketball scholarship from a four-year school, but didn't. Or they got scholie offers, just not from the school or schools that they felt they had merited. So they go to junior college with the intention of catching some four-year-school coach's eye. But that doesn't work out, or they end up two years wiser down the road, and they then turn their sights to a D3 school instead. North Park's had a ton of juco players over the years who've followed that decision path.

And then there's D1 transfers. They represent a completely different type altogether than the various juco types. The most common reason why a D1 player transfers to D3 is to get more playing time. Some D1 bench players are perfectly fine being the guy who hands the cups of Gatorade to his teammates during timeouts, as long as he's doing it in a 20,000-seat arena in a game broadcast on ESPN. Other D1 bench players want to actually play basketball, even if it means transferring so that they can be a big fish in a small pond rather than a small fish in a big pond.

Then there's the transfers who changed schools because they were homesick. Or the transfers who changed schools because they wanted to get away from home. Or the transfers who change their academic focus and need to switch schools for curricular reasons. And so on, and so forth.

I strenuously dislike the stigma that gets attached to transfer students. It's both ethically wrong and sociologically inaccurate to lump them all together as a group of people who are somehow not up to snuff when compared to those who initially enroll at and matriculate at the same school.

[NW Hope Fan]

And then of course there are the ones who transferred to Rowen in the mid-90's... 

[Mr. Ypsi]

And then of course there are the ones who transferred to Rowen in the mid-90's... 

That's a whole different 'kettle of fish' than Greg was discussing - and led immediately to the 'Rowan rule'.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg, nice 'rant', and I totally agree as both a retired educator and as a father.

I taught for several decades at EMU, a school with plenty of transfers both in and out.  Any general pronouncement about such transfers is doomed to be bogus and superficial.

My two sons have taken rather different paths.  Son #1 enrolled at EMU, was totally unchallenged, and (also for reasons of a major EMU didn't offer) transferred to U of M as a junior (he's now graduated).  Son #2 was a very troubled teen and (partly, I'm convinced, to save money, considering what we spent on lawyer's fees - which we didn't begrudge and assured him he could enroll anywhere he wanted) began at Washtenaw CC, and is transferring to EMU in the fall.  He's got the smarts (though probably not the credentials - though maybe a 3.9 at WCC carries more weight than I think! ) to go anywhere, but his VERY serious girlfriend is at EMU!   What ya gonna do - though I'm sure he will get a fine education and is now a fine young man.

So - both are transfers, and IMO both for the better.

[sflzman]

In order to be more inclusive, it seemed meet and proper to see if Scripture references Hornets or Stinger, since one can look in vain for mentions of Dutchmen, flying or grounded, and Knights in the Holy Book.

There are in fact three appearances of hornets, all in the Old Testament, and then there's this cameo for Stinger in the plural form in the very last book of the New Testament:

They had tails with STINGERS, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.
-- Revelation 9:9-11

and the word Hope is in the NIV 159 times.  No other MIAA school is mentioned

True, although Alma has its own entire book within the Book of Mormon.

Yes, but Alma is a Presbyterian school not Mormon

[KnightSlappy]

Whitby should be playing for Calvin, he grew up a stone's throw away from campus!  Is it appropriate to say that Adrian has made a conscious effort to recruit a "different type" student athlete, who can enhance their program and school?  D1 transfers, community college attendee's, second chance athletes?   Each athlete has their own story but the trend is becoming relatively clear.

Maybe KVS should head down to GRCC and look at guards Jared M, Wayland legend Alex Lyle, and EK grad Jimmy Carrol among others? Or simply wait for Hammer to discard players that can't cut it in their program and scoop them up?

Out of curiousity, how active is KVS in the local AAU circuit??  He doesn't seem like the type to thrive in that setting but he could/should send his former and current players out to make connections.  Neil has a huge advantage here because his two sons have spent the last several years on the AAU circuit- plenty of time to rub shoulders with players, parents, coaches....WM Lakers connection is strong!

I don't think it's fair to insinuate that KVS is opposed to looking at bringing in transfer players to the Calvin program.

Dan Aultman, Ricky Shilts, Derek Griffin, Trent Salo, Brad Schnyders, Paul Campbell, and Mickey DeVries were all transfer students.

Maybe that's not a ton of players for a seven or eight year span, but it's not insignificant.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

When do the first regional rankings come out?

[KnightSlappy]

When do the first regional rankings come out?

I think it's Feb 8.

[Civic Minded]

And then of course there are the ones who transferred to Rowen in the mid-90's... 

That's a whole different 'kettle of fish' than Greg was discussing - and led immediately to the 'Rowan rule'.

Immediately was too late for some of us...   

[Pat Coleman]

When do the first regional rankings come out?

I think it's Feb 8.

Yes.

[KnightSlappy]

Just running through some numbers and found that a 2-0 week would likely get Adrian ranked in the Feb 8 rankings. That would involve beating Hope, so it's a tall order.