MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[goodknight]

I concur in part and I dissent in part.

I've noticed that about you.

I wanted to use concepts with which OK had familiarity.

You neglected to add that you demur routinely, and never demurely.

[KnightSlappy]

11-12 season  1362
10-11 season  1842
09-10 season  2135
08-09 season  2586

I think its kind of unfair to compare this year and last to the 2010 and 2009 years.

In 2011  Calvin hosted 1 Hope/Calvin game, in 2010 and 2009   Calvin hosted 2 Hope/Calvin games. (Actually 3 in 2009 but the November game drew only 1750)

Also in 2009 Calvin had some odd 4300 crowd vs Trine in early January......opening night of sparkling new Van Noord Arena.

Still, that's a pretty solid trend, and not a good one.

To use stock market parlance:  Attendance is a trailing indicator, and performance (W/L's)  is the leading indicator.  Therefore, I boldly predict:  When performance improves one will see attendance improve, however I would caution that attendance is going to take a long time to reach historic levels.  The downturn occurred in the 07-08 season, and the 08-09, and 09-10 seasons look like classic "dead cat bounces". 

Fans follow wins. That is indeed obvious.

[Knight2Day]

11-12 season  1362
10-11 season  1842
09-10 season  2135
08-09 season  2586

I think its kind of unfair to compare this year and last to the 2010 and 2009 years.

In 2011  Calvin hosted 1 Hope/Calvin game, in 2010 and 2009   Calvin hosted 2 Hope/Calvin games. (Actually 3 in 2009 but the November game drew only 1750)

Also in 2009 Calvin had some odd 4300 crowd vs Trine in early January......opening night of sparkling new Van Noord Arena.

Still, that's a pretty solid trend, and not a good one.

To use stock market parlance:  Attendance is a trailing indicator, and performance (W/L's)  is the leading indicator.  Therefore, I boldly predict:  When performance improves one will see attendance improve, however I would caution that attendance is going to take a long time to reach historic levels.  The downturn occurred in the 07-08 season, and the 08-09, and 09-10 seasons look like classic "dead cat bounces". 

Fans follow wins. That is indeed obvious.

The problem then lies in the fact that the team is following more of a losing trend the last few seasons...and no, I don't care about winning the league title, obviously the fans want to see more than that (i.e. ncaa tourny appearances and maybe beating hope more than once a year?)

[sac]

One that got away from the MIAA's.....I know one that recruited him, sure others did.

Chicago's Matt Johnson is leading the UAA in scoring at 20.4 points per game.  Leading that conference in scoring is a pretty big deal.   He's gone over 30 points 4 times this year and had a recent 3 game stretch against Brandeis, Emory and Rochester where he scored 44, 49 and 36 points.

I saw him play for Ann Arbor Pioneer at the Breslin Center his Sr. year in the state semi-finals, I thought then he was most similar to Stephen Cramer in body type and overall play.  He had incredible range even then.

[almcguirejr]

OT:Kuyper College 69
     Grace Bible 64

That's twice in the last 3 weeks Kuyper has knocked off GBC.

http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2012/02/no_fluke_kuyper_mens_basketbal.html

[Busted Stuff]

I have talked with more than a few Calvin grads who have told me they won't attend games simply because they get frustrated with the way the team plays, and with the way the team is coached. Not 1226 of them, but still...

This seems to be a major factor with many of the friends I recently graduated with.  While I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, I think this is a huge deterrent for many students and recent graduates.  I appreciate the team-style of basketball played in Division 3.  But if one looks at the NBA, "good basketball" (as perceived by many in my younger generation) is Blake Griffin and LeBron James dunking in traffic, or D-Rose going off for 40.  I understand that stars have always been around, but I think the NBA is evolving more than it maybe has been.  Way more effort on offense playing 1 on 1, way less (zero?) effort on defense, especially among the stars.  Maybe the NBA has always been played that way so perhaps the older crowd will disagree, I don't know.  Whether or not this change is for the better is a completely different discussion! 

Calvin (and D3 in general) obviously cannot play this type of hoops, but this is what many students and other fans my age would prefer to watch.

Another key dynamic to consider is obviously the lack of NCAA tournament appearances and MIAA championships as of late.  A national championship in 2000 doesn't mean a whole lot to a college freshman when he or she was 7 years old at the time.  Believe it or not, that is a long time ago to some!

I believe these are two of the major proponents to Calvin's declining attendance numbers and lack of student support.

[calvin_grad]

This seems to be a major factor with many of the friends I recently graduated with.  While I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, I think this is a huge deterrent for many students and recent graduates.  I appreciate the team-style of basketball played in Division 3.  But if one looks at the NBA, "good basketball" (as perceived by many in my younger generation) is Blake Griffin and LeBron James dunking in traffic, or D-Rose going off for 40.  I understand that stars have always been around, but I think the NBA is evolving more than it maybe has been.  Way more effort on offense playing 1 on 1, way less (zero?) effort on defense, especially among the stars.  Maybe the NBA has always been played that way so perhaps the older crowd will disagree, I don't know.  Whether or not this change is for the better is a completely different discussion! 

Calvin (and D3 in general) obviously cannot play this type of hoops, but this is what many students and other fans my age would prefer to watch.

Another key dynamic to consider is obviously the lack of NCAA tournament appearances and MIAA championships as of late.  A national championship in 2000 doesn't mean a whole lot to a college freshman when he or she was 7 years old at the time.  Believe it or not, that is a long time ago to some!

I believe these are two of the major proponents to Calvin's declining attendance numbers and lack of student support.

While I understand your reasoning to a point, D3 basketball has never been and never will be mistaken for an "above the rim" style of play.  If that's is what people want to watch, then that's unfortunate.

I think it is much more attributable to the lack of NCAA appearances in the last 4 to 5 years, the "newness" of VNA wearing off, and so many more activities that students can choose from (including burying their heads in their smartphones all night).  But it's not just the student attendance that has dropped off at VNA, it's also the older generation as well.

I think this is an important factor that Calvin needs to consider when discussing a football team.  It's going to take awhile for the team (if it happens) to get good.  What happens to attendance when the newness wears off and the team is still struggling to find success??      But again, that's a discussion for another time and place.

[KnightSlappy]

I have talked with more than a few Calvin grads who have told me they won't attend games simply because they get frustrated with the way the team plays, and with the way the team is coached. Not 1226 of them, but still...

This seems to be a major factor with many of the friends I recently graduated with.  While I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, I think this is a huge deterrent for many students and recent graduates.  I appreciate the team-style of basketball played in Division 3.  But if one looks at the NBA, "good basketball" (as perceived by many in my younger generation) is Blake Griffin and LeBron James dunking in traffic, or D-Rose going off for 40.  I understand that stars have always been around, but I think the NBA is evolving more than it maybe has been.  Way more effort on offense playing 1 on 1, way less (zero?) effort on defense, especially among the stars.  Maybe the NBA has always been played that way so perhaps the older crowd will disagree, I don't know.  Whether or not this change is for the better is a completely different discussion! 

Calvin (and D3 in general) obviously cannot play this type of hoops, but this is what many students and other fans my age would prefer to watch.

Another key dynamic to consider is obviously the lack of NCAA tournament appearances and MIAA championships as of late. A national championship in 2000 doesn't mean a whole lot to a college freshman when he or she was 7 years old at the time. Believe it or not, that is a long time ago to some!

I believe these are two of the major proponents to Calvin's declining attendance numbers and lack of student support.

Calvin won two of the last three MIAA championships.

A greater number of wins will get young and old to come out in droves. Tournament appearances/runs will help get the students 'active'.

[Knight2Day]

I have talked with more than a few Calvin grads who have told me they won't attend games simply because they get frustrated with the way the team plays, and with the way the team is coached. Not 1226 of them, but still...

This seems to be a major factor with many of the friends I recently graduated with.  While I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, I think this is a huge deterrent for many students and recent graduates.  I appreciate the team-style of basketball played in Division 3.  But if one looks at the NBA, "good basketball" (as perceived by many in my younger generation) is Blake Griffin and LeBron James dunking in traffic, or D-Rose going off for 40.  I understand that stars have always been around, but I think the NBA is evolving more than it maybe has been.  Way more effort on offense playing 1 on 1, way less (zero?) effort on defense, especially among the stars.  Maybe the NBA has always been played that way so perhaps the older crowd will disagree, I don't know.  Whether or not this change is for the better is a completely different discussion! 

Calvin (and D3 in general) obviously cannot play this type of hoops, but this is what many students and other fans my age would prefer to watch.

Another key dynamic to consider is obviously the lack of NCAA tournament appearances and MIAA championships as of late. A national championship in 2000 doesn't mean a whole lot to a college freshman when he or she was 7 years old at the time. Believe it or not, that is a long time ago to some!

I believe these are two of the major proponents to Calvin's declining attendance numbers and lack of student support.

Calvin won two of the last three MIAA championships.

A greater number of wins will get young and old to come out in droves. Tournament appearances/runs will help get the students 'active'.

Calvin has won two of the last 3 regular season championships. Those two years, Hope cut down the nets in our own gym. That doesn't do much to bring fans in. With the amount of talent the Knights have had over the last 5 years (with the exception of the current year) there has been no reason to not make the NCAA tourny/make runs and I think that the older generation sees that and is disappointed so they would rather not come support a team that doesn't even play together let alone win. The younger generation (which I would be a part of) grew up hearing about the tradition at Calvin (i.e. the NC teams, the great players and the "Rivalry" which in my years of following Calvin basketball has seen Calvin get its head kicked in) and only see Calvin teams under perform and not live up to the great stories we grew up hearing about. Calvin students aren't excited about Calvin basketball.

[sac]

Calvin's avg. attendance this year is listed as 1,114.   However they are being shown as the home team for the game played out in Washington vs Whitman.  A game that drew 700.

Also for some reason Calvin played Finlandia on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving break.  I'm no genius but this seems like a terrible time to play a game, and esp. a not very good one.  374 showed up for that one.   Without those 2 games Calvin is at about 1,300 and will go over 1,500 this Saturday.



Calvin's attendance--bold = MIAA Championship

2011--1842 ---This was 3rd in Division III
2010--2135--2 Hope games
2009--2586*--2 Hope games, opening of Van Noord
2008--1374*--construction closes off part of Calvin Fieldhouse
2007--1890
2006--2167--2 Hope games
2005--2262
2004--1942
2003--1904
2002--2617--2 Hope games

I'm just throwing this out there, could there be a little warped sense of what a Calvin crowd is like going on here.  During this whole stretch other than the Hope games there are probably a little more than handful of games that drew over 3,000 and most of those were probably the homecoming game.

Hope has led D3 attendance for something like 18 of the last 20 years, and never avg'd more than about 2500 at the Civic Center which means Calvin rarely went over that mark....the high water mark for Calvin of 2002 in the past decade.

All but 2008 were probably good for #2 or #3 in D3 attendance.

[Busted Stuff]

I have talked with more than a few Calvin grads who have told me they won't attend games simply because they get frustrated with the way the team plays, and with the way the team is coached. Not 1226 of them, but still...

This seems to be a major factor with many of the friends I recently graduated with.  While I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, I think this is a huge deterrent for many students and recent graduates.  I appreciate the team-style of basketball played in Division 3.  But if one looks at the NBA, "good basketball" (as perceived by many in my younger generation) is Blake Griffin and LeBron James dunking in traffic, or D-Rose going off for 40.  I understand that stars have always been around, but I think the NBA is evolving more than it maybe has been.  Way more effort on offense playing 1 on 1, way less (zero?) effort on defense, especially among the stars.  Maybe the NBA has always been played that way so perhaps the older crowd will disagree, I don't know.  Whether or not this change is for the better is a completely different discussion! 

Calvin (and D3 in general) obviously cannot play this type of hoops, but this is what many students and other fans my age would prefer to watch.

Another key dynamic to consider is obviously the lack of NCAA tournament appearances and MIAA championships as of late. A national championship in 2000 doesn't mean a whole lot to a college freshman when he or she was 7 years old at the time. Believe it or not, that is a long time ago to some!

I believe these are two of the major proponents to Calvin's declining attendance numbers and lack of student support.

Calvin won two of the last three MIAA championships.

A greater number of wins will get young and old to come out in droves. Tournament appearances/runs will help get the students 'active'.

Excuse me, I meant MIAA tournament championships, which Knight2Day pointed out have been won by Hope both years Calvin won the regular season title.  Does winning the regular season mean a whole lot if you don't win the conference tournament, or don't get a Pool C bid?  I guess it depends who you ask.  I was implying a visit to the national tournament, which Calvin never did the four years I attended.  Not only this, but I witnessed Calvin lose to Hope all four of those years in the (tournament) conference championship.

[Knight2Day]

I have talked with more than a few Calvin grads who have told me they won't attend games simply because they get frustrated with the way the team plays, and with the way the team is coached. Not 1226 of them, but still...

This seems to be a major factor with many of the friends I recently graduated with.  While I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, I think this is a huge deterrent for many students and recent graduates.  I appreciate the team-style of basketball played in Division 3.  But if one looks at the NBA, "good basketball" (as perceived by many in my younger generation) is Blake Griffin and LeBron James dunking in traffic, or D-Rose going off for 40.  I understand that stars have always been around, but I think the NBA is evolving more than it maybe has been.  Way more effort on offense playing 1 on 1, way less (zero?) effort on defense, especially among the stars.  Maybe the NBA has always been played that way so perhaps the older crowd will disagree, I don't know.  Whether or not this change is for the better is a completely different discussion! 

Calvin (and D3 in general) obviously cannot play this type of hoops, but this is what many students and other fans my age would prefer to watch.

Another key dynamic to consider is obviously the lack of NCAA tournament appearances and MIAA championships as of late. A national championship in 2000 doesn't mean a whole lot to a college freshman when he or she was 7 years old at the time. Believe it or not, that is a long time ago to some!

I believe these are two of the major proponents to Calvin's declining attendance numbers and lack of student support.

Calvin won two of the last three MIAA championships.

A greater number of wins will get young and old to come out in droves. Tournament appearances/runs will help get the students 'active'.

Excuse me, I meant MIAA tournament championships, which Knight2Day pointed out has been won by Hope both years Calvin won the regular season title.  Does winning the regular season mean a whole lot if you don't win the conference tournament, or don't get a Pool C bid?  I guess it depends who you ask.  I was implying a visit to the national tournament, which Calvin never did the four years I attended.  Not only this, but I witnessed Calvin lose to Hope all four of those years in the (tournament) conference championship.

I'm in the same boat you were in Grey. Not only that but I was close to the program during my time at Calvin which only put more salt in the wound.

[sac]

One year ago the Hope/Kzoo game in Holland was the 3rd week of January and both teams were tied for first place at 3-1.

http://www.miaa.org/mbb/stats/1011/0126kzoo.htm

Hope and Kalamazoo have played each other more than any other MIAA rivals and that game was probably as memorable as any of them.  It will be a long time before anyone is likely to see that again.

[Happy Calvin Guy]

One year ago the Hope/Kzoo game in Holland was the 3rd week of January and both teams were tied for first place at 3-1.

http://www.miaa.org/mbb/stats/1011/0126kzoo.htm

Hope and Kalamazoo have played each other more than any other MIAA rivals and that game was probably as memorable as any of them.  It will be a long time before anyone is likely to see that again.

Nate King will always remember that special night when he and Bowser combined for 46. 

[KnightSlappy]

One year ago the Hope/Kzoo game in Holland was the 3rd week of January and both teams were tied for first place at 3-1.

http://www.miaa.org/mbb/stats/1011/0126kzoo.htm

Hope and Kalamazoo have played each other more than any other MIAA rivals and that game was probably as memorable as any of them.  It will be a long time before anyone is likely to see that again.

Nate King will always remember that special night when he and Bowser combined for 46.

Did he ever play JV or was he at the end of the bench from day one?

A case of bringing a guy up too soon?