MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

The 2006 team overachieved big time.

amen and amen 

[HopeConvert]

The 2006 team overachieved big time.

I don't agree. That team was loaded. Veldhouse's best year was his freshman year. They had Draayer, Trewhella, and Meckes, as well as some fine bench players. Maybe 13-1 couldn't be expected, but they had talent. They also lost in the second round in the NCAA's that year (on Veldhouse's charge) so I'm not sure "overachieved" fits.

[KnightSlappy]

The 2006 team overachieved big time.

I don't agree. That team was loaded. Veldhouse's best year was his freshman year. They had Draayer, Trewhella, and Meckes, as well as some fine bench players. Maybe 13-1 couldn't be expected, but they had talent. They also lost in the second round in the NCAA's that year (on Veldhouse's charge) so I'm not sure "overachieved" fits.

The bench was...

JR Bear DeVries
FR Dustin Smith
FR Micah Chappel
FR Tim Katt
FR Tyler Zoerhof
SO Joe Pearcy
SR Kevin Prins

Yeesh.

[sac]

Hope 75  Olivet 60

http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/1112/0215olho.htm

I'm going to try and write this from two different perspectives, ......one as neutral as a dude with a degree from Hope can be ........and one as a bleeding orange and blue, yelling at the opposing teams student section for some dumb reason fan.

As a neutral....

If you're Gene Gifford and you have a team that is 4-19, one thing you want to see your team do is compete.  Olivet lost 3 important players at the Christmas break, it killed any chances this team had of playing for anything more than 7th place in the MIAA and honestly that seemed like a stretch.   His teams season is basically over after this week, they have no tournament to prepare for, all they had was tonight really.  Big, bad #1 ranked Hope.

This Comet team played kind of fearless tonight.  They took shots with confidence, defended with desire and for about 1/2 of the game really punched the Dutchmen in the gut.  In a couple seasons of watching more than my fair share of Olivet games this might have been the best I've seen them compete on defense.   For all of that, Gene and his coaching staff deserve a lot of credit, they were ready for this.

Anyone who was in the gym could probably see Olivet's good play wouldn't last, it just couldn't against Hope's taller, better lineup.  Eventually Hope's height, athleticism and ability to transition from D to O won the game.  At one point in the second half, I think Hope up 12 or 13, it was their biggest lead at that point, I turned to FDF and told him its really just a matter of if Olivet cracks mentally or not.  The really didn't.  They kept playing hard and kept a score that was heading for what everyone expected(around 25 points), to something respectable.

If you had no preconceived notions of what the #1 ranked team in D3 had done this season, you would probably leave the gym a little mystified....how?......but at the same time you saw the 10 or 15 minutes that Hope turned the game around and dominated.   I think you'd really wonder what you saw from Hope tonight.


As an orange and blue bleeding nut job with a computer......


Hope played like wussies tonight.

I could probably leave it there but I won't.  This was the first time in a long, long time I've seen Hope play so timid and hesitant.  Part of me would like to say they weren't ready, they were lazy, not focused.  It was probably a lot of that.   For long periods of the game Hope's two MVP buddies struggled to make shots they've made all year.  Nate Snuggerud just struggled to catch the ball and hang on to it.  Stuff like that will happen from time to time, you just never expect both to struggle in one game.

Tonight Hope spent to much time shying away from contact, wishing for fouls instead of forcing them.  They didn't move well on offense, didn't pass the ball well and it led to them struggling to find any consistency at all.  The frustration on each and every Dutchmen's faces was easy to see.    Finally in the second half they started attacking the basket and powering through the contact, moving the ball etc., and low and behold the Dutchmen built a solid 20 point-ish lead.

Wouldn't be right to not throw a positive or two out there.   Peter Bunn was really solid tonight, when you consider this was a night when the well oiled machine ran like one without a spark plug or two.   He seemed to be the one guy who had it together out there, yet still even he struggled shooting a little.   Billy Seiler's defense was pretty solid again, he picked up a couple unfortunate second half fouls but otherwise he and Logan Neil really got into Alvino Ashley's jersey  (and head).   Ashley was a non-factor in the first half, partly his own doing with his mouth.  He pretty much dared the refs to call a foul on him and they did, 3 of them.

As tough as things were going, the Dutchmen found a way to turn around a game they were really struggling with and win by 15 on the road.   It probably shouldn't have been this hard, but it was, and you move on and hopefully take a lesson or two from this one.  Every now and then Hope will play a game where they just look like they expect to win because the name on the jersey says Hope.  The name on the jersey doesn't win games, how hard the players inside those jerseys is what wins games........maybe that will be tonight's lesson.

Matt Neil and the rest of Hope's 8 or 9 coaches have a lot of ammo to push this team in the next few practices and that will probably be a good thing.   Hope plays like this next Wednesday, they won't be playing next Saturday.  Hope plays like this 2 Friday's from now they won't be playing the next day.  Pretty simple I think.

[sac]

Well, let's see what we will talk about most after tonight's Trine vs Calvin game:

1.  NVA and his moving screens

NVA got at least one tonight, and some foul the official completely made up     Poor kid didn't know what he could or couldn't do out there sometimes.

Well, let's see what we will talk about most after tonight's Trine vs Calvin game:

2.  Bryan Powell's dunk

I doubt it will make youtube but Coltan Overway had one tonight and he didn't need the benefit of a full court sprint.

I tell ya he's 5-7 in boots.   

[GoKnights68]

The 2006 team overachieved big time.

I don't agree. That team was loaded. Veldhouse's best year was his freshman year. They had Draayer, Trewhella, and Meckes, as well as some fine bench players. Maybe 13-1 couldn't be expected, but they had talent. They also lost in the second round in the NCAA's that year (on Veldhouse's charge) so I'm not sure "overachieved" fits.

I, myself, agree with you regarding your thoughts on KVS, but I fully agree with KnightSlappy on this one regarding the 2006 team overachieving.  That team's best 4 players you listed were really good basketball players and talented, but everything after that was not even close to the talent Hope had that year and even Albion.  Just look at the bench.    That team, though, had something that this year and last year's Calvin team hasn't had and that was effective leadership.   Watching that team at Van Andel Arena in November that year, most people thought they'd struggle to get over .500.

Either way, that was 6 seasons ago, and right now Calvin is in trouble.  One has to give credit to Trine, but lets see how Calvin plays this Saturday against a below average team.  Do they want to win and risk getting beat by Hope for the........grrrr, I don't even want to say it.  I'm sure FDF can chime in for me and tell Calvin fans how many straight years it would be that Hope would end Calvin's season.  Then Sac can tell us how KVS shouldn't be on the hot-seat.

[WAlum]

Great win for Trine in so many more ways than conference standings and wins in the MIAA.  The wins helps them gain respect and credibility with other teams and with recruits!

[HopeConvert]

The 2006 team overachieved big time.

I don't agree. That team was loaded. Veldhouse's best year was his freshman year. They had Draayer, Trewhella, and Meckes, as well as some fine bench players. Maybe 13-1 couldn't be expected, but they had talent. They also lost in the second round in the NCAA's that year (on Veldhouse's charge) so I'm not sure "overachieved" fits.

I, myself, agree with you regarding your thoughts on KVS, but I fully agree with KnightSlappy on this one regarding the 2006 team overachieving.  That team's best 4 players you listed were really good basketball players and talented, but everything after that was not even close to the talent Hope had that year and even Albion.  Just look at the bench.    That team, though, had something that this year and last year's Calvin team hasn't had and that was effective leadership.   Watching that team at Van Andel Arena in November that year, most people thought they'd struggle to get over .500.

Hope did beat Calvin 3 out of 4 times that year, with the only loss being Veldhouse's buzzer-beater at Knollcrest (shudder). I think Albion underachieved that year, but that doesn't mean Calvin overachieved. Katt, DeVries, Smith, and Zoerhof were all decent enough players off the bench. Snoeyink was a decent player. Again, I don't think anyone could have predicted 13-1, but to say they overachieved "big time" seems to me stretching things. Even though they lost Aultman, they added Veldhouse to a team that had been to the final four the previous year. Hope was the better team and proved it, until that all-too-explicable (0 points, 0 rebounds) loss to Wittenberg.

[ziggy]

The 2006 team overachieved big time.

I don't agree. That team was loaded. Veldhouse's best year was his freshman year. They had Draayer, Trewhella, and Meckes, as well as some fine bench players. Maybe 13-1 couldn't be expected, but they had talent. They also lost in the second round in the NCAA's that year (on Veldhouse's charge) so I'm not sure "overachieved" fits.

I, myself, agree with you regarding your thoughts on KVS, but I fully agree with KnightSlappy on this one regarding the 2006 team overachieving.  That team's best 4 players you listed were really good basketball players and talented, but everything after that was not even close to the talent Hope had that year and even Albion.  Just look at the bench.    That team, though, had something that this year and last year's Calvin team hasn't had and that was effective leadership.   Watching that team at Van Andel Arena in November that year, most people thought they'd struggle to get over .500.

Hope did beat Calvin 3 out of 4 times that year, with the only loss being Veldhouse's buzzer-beater at Knollcrest (shudder). I think Albion underachieved that year, but that doesn't mean Calvin overachieved. Katt, DeVries, Smith, and Zoerhof were all decent enough players off the bench. Snoeyink was a decent player. Again, I don't think anyone could have predicted 13-1, but to say they overachieved "big time" seems to me stretching things. Even though they lost Aultman, they added Veldhouse to a team that had been to the final four the previous year. Hope was the better team and proved it, until that all-too-explicable (0 points, 0 rebounds) loss to Wittenberg.

Perhaps an even bigger over-achievement.

[KnightSlappy]

According to offensive and defensive efficiency numbers, 2006 was nearly identical (though ever so slightly better) than the 2011 Calvin team.

The 2007, 2008, and 2009 Knights all rated as better teams than '06.

The '06 team overachieved by 3.8 wins (with respect to their efficiency numbers). Most of any MIAA team since (at least) the 2004-2005 season.

[Hopester]

According to offensive and defensive efficiency numbers, 2006 was nearly identical (though ever so slightly better) than the 2011 Calvin team.

The 2007, 2008, and 2009 Knights all rated as better teams than '06.

So you are saying that those teams underachieved? I really think everyone is saying the same thing, just either looking at the glass as either half full or half empty.

Katt, DeVries, Smith, and Zoerhof were all decent enough players off the bench. Snoeyink was a decent player. Again, I don't think anyone could have predicted 13-1, but to say they overachieved "big time" seems to me stretching things.

Zoerhof, decent, and player all in the same sentence. Now that made me laugh.

[KnightSlappy]

According to offensive and defensive efficiency numbers, 2006 was nearly identical (though ever so slightly better) than the 2011 Calvin team.

The 2007, 2008, and 2009 Knights all rated as better teams than '06.

So you are saying that those teams underachieved? I really think everyone is saying the same thing, just either looking at the glass as either half full or half empty.

Mostly what I'm going off of is offensive efficiency rating minus defensive efficiency rating. This tells how many more points each Calvin team scored than their opponents did (per 100 possessions).

[BogeyMan]

Great win for Trine in so many more ways than conference standings and wins in the MIAA.  The wins helps them gain respect and credibility with other teams and with recruits!

I think Trine is getting better but not to the point you and Sac give them credit for.  Just last week Trine lost at home to Albion.  Albion has much less talent than Trine.  Trine looked lackadasical and was not playing as a team.  It takes more than one year to give a coach and team the credit you and Sac are giving Trine. Brooks looks like he has Trine going in the right direction, but I believe more time is needed before we can say they will compete for a MIAA championship.  MIAA championships are not easily taken away from Hope and Calvin.  When is the last time someone other than Hope or Calvin has won the regular season championship or the tournament championship?

[Happy Calvin Guy]

The question is how do we define "overachieved"?  If we are talking about overachieving in winning percentage given the offensive and defensive efficiency #'s, then we are probably talking about luck and variance.  If we are talking about having better efficiency #'s than we should, given our inherent talent level (this is impossible to quantify), then in my mind that is overachievement. 

By the second measure, the Knights most certainly "underachieved" in Angola last night.  Now we have a fight on our hands merely to earn the privilege of giving Hope the chance to end our season for a staggering seventh straight season.   

[KnightSlappy]

Great win for Trine in so many more ways than conference standings and wins in the MIAA.  The wins helps them gain respect and credibility with other teams and with recruits!

I think Trine is getting better but not to the point you and Sac give them credit for.  Just last week Trine lost at home to Albion.  Albion has much less talent than Trine.  Trine looked lackadasical and was not playing as a team.  It takes more than one year to give a coach and team the credit you and Sac are giving Trine. Brooks looks like he has Trine going in the right direction, but I believe more time is needed before we can say they will compete for a MIAA championship.  MIAA championships are not easily taken away from Hope and Calvin.  When is the last time someone other than Hope or Calvin has won the regular season championship or the tournament championship?

2005 Albion won the regular season title; Calvin won the tournament. Both teams made the Elite Eight.