MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[KnightSlappy]

Instead of enrollment being used as a barometer.  I would like to see what each basketball program has for a budget and how much they spend on assistant coaches.

Assistant coaches salaries are not provided, probably a part of general expenses.  Also coaches salaries are far from their actual salaries as faculty.

Expenses reported in 2010 here..... http://www.fldcu.org/michigan/
Adrian--  1,000,000
Albion--  970,000
Alma--    705,000
Calvin--  480,000
Hope--    940,000
Kalamazoo--  650,000
Olivet--  810,000
Trine--  810,000

I'm sure travel is the largest expense.  In 2010 Calvin had one trip out West, otherwise did not leave the State of Michigan.  I don't know why they seem so low.  Maybe they should get more serious.

No football?

[sac]

Olivet 1.145; Kalamazoo 1,340; Trine 1,400; Alma 1,444 and the biggie Albion 1,925 if Calvin and Hope don't dominate shame on them.  The advantages that their size offer these two schools is staggering really.

What effect does size have on quality of play? I would suspect basketball talent gets distributed much closer to a per roster slot basis, and not per enrollment slot.

Wouldn't Grace Bible College fit in as a good example here?  "Grand Rapids, Michigan, September 26, 2011 – Grace Bible College has seen steady growth in enrollment over the past three years, starting this semester with 233 students on campus, up from 207 last year. "  Current Men's BB Record: 18-9,

They offer scholarships, correct? That changes the formula as well.

The Bible Tigers are non-scholarship.

But the Bible Tiger Ballers pay far less than their D-III brethren.

This says almost 25,000 for Grace Bible.  Its less than most, almost half of K and Albion now, but still thats a lot of change.

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1360

[ziggy]

Olivet 1.145; Kalamazoo 1,340; Trine 1,400; Alma 1,444 and the biggie Albion 1,925 if Calvin and Hope don't dominate shame on them.  The advantages that their size offer these two schools is staggering really.

What effect does size have on quality of play? I would suspect basketball talent gets distributed much closer to a per roster slot basis, and not per enrollment slot.

Wouldn't Grace Bible College fit in as a good example here?  "Grand Rapids, Michigan, September 26, 2011 – Grace Bible College has seen steady growth in enrollment over the past three years, starting this semester with 233 students on campus, up from 207 last year. "  Current Men's BB Record: 18-9,

They offer scholarships, correct? That changes the formula as well.

The Bible Tigers are non-scholarship.

But the Bible Tiger Ballers pay far less than their D-III brethren.

This says almost 25,000 for Grace Bible.  Its less than most, almost half of K and Albion now, but still thats a lot of change.

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1360

It was enough for it to become a topic of conversation between two GBC student that were behind me at the tip-off tournament. If you missed my edit on the previous page, the difference is about $12K per year less than Calvin.

[arena]

Did Trine play zone last night?

[GoKnights68]

According to offensive and defensive efficiency numbers, 2006 was nearly identical (though ever so slightly better) than the 2011 Calvin team.

The 2007, 2008, and 2009 Knights all rated as better teams than '06.

So you are saying that those teams underachieved? I really think everyone is saying the same thing, just either looking at the glass as either half full or half empty.

Mostly what I'm going off of is offensive efficiency rating minus defensive efficiency rating. This tells how many more points each Calvin team scored than their opponents did (per 100 possessions).

Calvin's 2006 team played in 8 games (including an OT victory over Trine) that were decided by less than 5 points (except the Trine game) and won 7 of them (the only loss to Hope in the NCAA tourney). They won two games by one point. It would be more interesting to see what their efficiency ratings were in the last five minutes of the games. The indicators are abstract, for they don't show that Calvin played very well in close games. Their six losses were by 14, 8, 15, 7, 18, 13, and 3. Only the last one was close.

What's the margin of error? It would seem to me 3 games would not be far off. It is, in any case, not a "big time" overachievement.

No offense but how many Calvin games did you go to that season?  I attended just about every one, including about most of their road games. My guess is KnightSlappy attended most of them as well, with being a student at the time.

Zoerhoff and Smith were solid players, but both were freshmen.  Zoerhoff was very limited on offense.    Katt barely played his freshmen year. 

Draayer, Trewella, and Meckes set the tone with their defensive-minded mentality that carried over to (most of) the rest of the team.  Like Sac mentioned, they worked to get better as the season went on.  And that's credit to the upper-classmen and KVS that season.

Maybe "overachieving big-time" isn't fully true, but I stand by my statement that they overachieved that season. 

I don't necessarily think the 2009 and 2010 teams underachieved, being they finished a respectable 12-2 in the league each season and winning the regular season outright.  They probably were NCAA tournament quality teams that could have made a nice run if they had get an at-large which they probably deserved (if comparing them to quality of play to other at-large bid teams that made the tourney that year), but they of course blew it themselves by losing a few games they shouldn't have in the regular season.

[BogeyMan]

Did Trine play zone last night?

I don't know the answer, but he did work for Bobby Knight.  I would doubt if he ever plays a zone.

[oldknight]

What I remember about the 2006 Calvin team is that they survived a couple early MIAA scares which kept them in position to contend.  It also probably kept their confidence up.  They continued to improve and by the end of the season they were every bit as good as their MIAA Champion credential suggested.  Hope lost 2 games on the road by 1 at Calvin and a thorough demolition at Albion.  Calvin was able to win at Albion by 3 and that was the 1 game difference in the standings.


In the first 5 MIAA games that year Calvin had these results:

Calvin 64 Alma 60
Calvin 82 Adrian 68
Hope 73 Calvin 55
Calvin 73 Olivet 71
Calvin 69 Albion 66

This 5 game stretch ended up defining their season.  They could have easily lost 3 or 4 games here and been to far back in the MIAA race to contend.   Fun season that one.

The history sac provides helps one understand Calvin's current woes. This is not an apologia for the team but let's try and get a little context regarding the 2011-12 version of Calvin's men's basketball. Even good teams have a fair number of close games with other schools who seemingly don't have the same level of talent. This is especially true in conference play because teams know each other so well and can find ways to keep games close against opponents who appear to be superior. During Calvin's 2000 championship season the Knights won two uncomfortably close games against conference doormat, Alma, one during the regular season and the other in the conference tournament. I sat directly behind the Alma bench at one of those games and I remember thinking--during a break in the action late in the second half--How does Calvin expect to be able to win a national championship if they have to struggle to beat the Scots?

If you look at Calvin's current roster and compare it to the players not available anymore, you would notice they have three players--Brink, DeVries and Vallie--who could be starting right now if available. They certainly are three of the top six or seven players on campus. In addition, Calvin's starting point guard missed the last three and half games before playing last night for the first time in two weeks. Calvin played their archrival without four of their top seven players, and replaced them with four freshmen --three of them right off the JV team--who were required to play major minutes in the biggest game of the year. Now tell me, given all that, how on God's green earth does anyone expect this team to do anything but struggle?

This all makes Hope's season look remarkably good. You know you're having a good season when your fans start bitching about a 15 point league road win. The Flying Dutchmen are winning conference games by an average of nearly 20 points. That's phenomenal.

[HopeConvert]

What I remember about the 2006 Calvin team is that they survived a couple early MIAA scares which kept them in position to contend.  It also probably kept their confidence up.  They continued to improve and by the end of the season they were every bit as good as their MIAA Champion credential suggested.  Hope lost 2 games on the road by 1 at Calvin and a thorough demolition at Albion.  Calvin was able to win at Albion by 3 and that was the 1 game difference in the standings.


In the first 5 MIAA games that year Calvin had these results:

Calvin 64 Alma 60
Calvin 82 Adrian 68
Hope 73 Calvin 55
Calvin 73 Olivet 71
Calvin 69 Albion 66

This 5 game stretch ended up defining their season.  They could have easily lost 3 or 4 games here and been to far back in the MIAA race to contend.   Fun season that one.

The history sac provides helps one understand Calvin's current woes. This is not an apologia for the team but let's try and get a little context regarding the 2011-12 version of Calvin's men's basketball. Even good teams have a fair number of close games with other schools who seemingly don't have the same level of talent. This is especially true in conference play because teams know each other so well and can find ways to keep games close against opponents who appear to be superior. During Calvin's 2000 championship season the Knights won two uncomfortably close games against conference doormat, Alma, one during the regular season and the other in the conference tournament. I sat directly behind the Alma bench at one of those games and I remember thinking--during a break in the action late in the second half--How does Calvin expect to be able to win a national championship if they have to struggle to beat the Scots?

If you look at Calvin's current roster and compare it to the players not available anymore, you would notice they have three players--Brink, DeVries and Vallie--who could be starting right now if available. They certainly are three of the top six or seven players on campus. In addition, Calvin's starting point guard missed the last three and half games before playing last night for the first time in two weeks. Calvin played their archrival without four of their top seven players, and replaced them with four freshmen --three of them right off the JV team--who were required to play major minutes in the biggest game of the year. Now tell me, given all that, how on God's green earth does anyone expect this team to do anything but struggle?

This all makes Hope's season look remarkably good. You know you're having a good season when your fans start bitching about a 15 point league road win. The Flying Dutchmen are winning conference games by an average of nearly 20 points. That's phenomenal.

The voice of reason appears.

Point taken. Karma given.

[sac]

Injuries, suspensions and general 'what not' have played a major role in this years MIAA race.

Adrian
Wes Reed--out for 99.9% of the year
Dennis Mason--missed first half of the year
Cody Barnes--missed the last 3 games with injury.

Albion
Chris Hutton--out for year with hand injury
Anthony Wash-- out for MIAA with injury
Mike Smith--  suspended, ejected ??, missing 2nd half of MIAA season
Alex Harville-- missed 4 games with injury.

Calvin
Jordan Brink-- out for year with injury
Mitch Vallie--  missed MIAA with injury
Mickey DeVries--  out, I actually don't know why
Dave Rietema--missed 3 or 4 games due to injury

Olivet
Matt El-  off the team at break
Erick Mack--off the team at break
Paul Koviak-- off the team at break
Jaren Edsall-- missed some games with injury

Kalamazoo
Joe Prepolec--playing with injury all year, clearly not 100%



Everyone on this list except Paul Koviak is a starter or would have started.  A major reason the middle of the league is such a mess is probably because of this.   Even a couple of these guys playing might be enough to get a team to 9-3.

[goodknight]

Mickey DeVries was ruled academically ineligible for the interim and second semester.

[calvin_grad]

what happens if Adrian, Calvin, Albion and Trine all finish 8-6.

Then Hope is eliminated and the rest of the teams make the tournament.

...kidding

#2 Adrian
#3 coin flip between Albion / Trine

#4 play in game: Calvin @ loser of the coin flip.

KS, explain to me how you came to that conclusion.  On the MIAA web site, in the section on tiebreakers used to determine seeding, there is item #3:

3. In a case of a tie involving more than two teams, compare each team's records head-to-head against the other teams in the tie, with the team with the worst record dropping out. Then go back to the two-team tiebreaker above.

If Adrian, Trine, Calvin, and Albion all finish at 8-6, don't you invoke this rule?  Their results against each other are as follows:

Adrian 4-2
Albion 3-3
Trine 3-3
Calvin 2-4

Isn't Calvin eliminated?  Why would Calvin get to play in a play-in game?  I think Calvin might need a win and an Albion loss to get in the tournament.

[KnightSlappy]

what happens if Adrian, Calvin, Albion and Trine all finish 8-6.

Then Hope is eliminated and the rest of the teams make the tournament.

...kidding

#2 Adrian
#3 coin flip between Albion / Trine

#4 play in game: Calvin @ loser of the coin flip.

KS, explain to me how you came to that conclusion.  On the MIAA web site, in the section on tiebreakers used to determine seeding, there is item #3:

3. In a case of a tie involving more than two teams, compare each team's records head-to-head against the other teams in the tie, with the team with the worst record dropping out. Then go back to the two-team tiebreaker above.

If Adrian, Trine, Calvin, and Albion all finish at 8-6, don't you invoke this rule?  Their results against each other are as follows:

Adrian 4-2
Albion 3-3
Trine 3-3
Calvin 2-4

Isn't Calvin eliminated?  Why would Calvin get to play in a play-in game?  I think Calvin might need a win and an Albion loss to get in the tournament.

There are two sets of tiebreakers in play here. One deals with determining seeding and/or home court advantage, the other deals with qualifying or not qualifying for the league tournament (this is only invoked when there is a tie for the fourth seed. Of course, you could be right in the end. This was my interpretation:

So, in the case of a four-way tie for second, they would first need to determine the #2 team.

Lump Adrian, Albion, Calvin and Trine together. Look at records among tied teams. Calvin drops out of contention for the #2 spot (they're the lowest). Start over with Adrian, Albion, Trine. Everyone's even. Then look at record versus Hope. Everyone's 0-2. Then look at record versus Calvin. Albion and Trine are 1-1, so they drop out as Adrian is 2-0.

Adrian is #2.

Then they need to determine the #3 team. Lump Albion, Calvin, and Trine together. Everyone's 1-1 versus each other. Everyone's 0-2 versus Hope. Calvin's 0-2 versus Adrian, they drop out of contention for the #3 seed. Start over with Albion and Trine. They're even on everything. Coin flip.

Albion/Trine coin flip winner is #3.

Then they need to determine the #4 seed. Calvin and Coin Flip Loser are compared. They split the season series (the only tiebreaker used in the case of elimination), so play in-game becomes the tiebreaker.

[sac]

I don't recommend a 4 way tie.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I don't recommend a 4 way tie.

Yeah, but I bet you'd revel in a SEVEN way tie: Hope 14-0, eveyone else 6-8!

[goodknight]

Instead of enrollment being used as a barometer.  I would like to see what each basketball program has for a budget and how much they spend on assistant coaches.

Assistant coaches salaries are not provided, probably a part of general expenses.  Also coaches salaries are far from their actual salaries as faculty.

Expenses reported in 2010 here..... http://www.fldcu.org/michigan/
Adrian--  1,000,000
Albion--  970,000
Alma--    705,000
Calvin--  480,000
Hope--    940,000
Kalamazoo--  650,000
Olivet--  810,000
Trine--  810,000

I'm sure travel is the largest expense.  In 2010 Calvin had one trip out West, otherwise did not leave the State of Michigan.  I don't know why they seem so low.  Maybe they should get more serious.

Exactly!