MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Adrian Bulldawg Alum]

I am extremely happy to see Mark White's Bulldawgs in the MIAA Final with Hope.

I have been catching up on what has been going on and the focus on Hope vs. Calvin (as it has been for years) is a bit tiring.  I thought I do a little posting to add a little Adrian talk and break the monotony.

First off, I met Mark White last year with a couple of former players and we were all very impressed personally.  And then after watching the game, we were impressed by his style.  Hard-nosed and aggressive defense that emphasized a sort of Wisconsin-esque style.  I'm hoping this style can keep this game with Hope close and perhaps a few buckets down the stretch can win it for them.  I'm sure it will be very difficult since Hope has (apparently) a great team.

Just seeing Adrian as a #2 seed and in the finals brings hope (pun intended?) to this former Bulldawg.  I really do see Adrian becoming a long lasting team to be reckoned with in the MIAA.

[KnightSlappy]

I have been catching up on what has been going on and the focus on Hope vs. Calvin (as it has been for years) is a bit tiring.

"Other" posters chiming in once in a blue moon complaining about the Hope and Calvin focus is also a bit tiring. If you want your team talked about more regularly, then chime in more regularly. And tell your friends about the site, and have them engage in thoughtful discussion as well.

BTW, I also believe that Adrian will have staying power in the MIAA as a quality team. sac called them "the new Albion" a few days ago, and that may prove to be true. I'd like to see the Bulldogs win an MIAA title or get into the tourney first before completely buying in. Right now, I'd still just call Adrian a pest but I think they're building something good.

[gohope]

I am extremely happy to see Mark White's Bulldawgs in the MIAA Final with Hope.

I have been catching up on what has been going on and the focus on Hope vs. Calvin (as it has been for years) is a bit tiring.  I thought I do a little posting to add a little Adrian talk and break the monotony.

First off, I met Mark White last year with a couple of former players and we were all very impressed personally.  And then after watching the game, we were impressed by his style.  Hard-nosed and aggressive defense that emphasized a sort of Wisconsin-esque style.  I'm hoping this style can keep this game with Hope close and perhaps a few buckets down the stretch can win it for them.  I'm sure it will be very difficult since Hope has (apparently) a great team.

Just seeing Adrian as a #2 seed and in the finals brings hope (pun intended?) to this former Bulldawg.  I really do see Adrian becoming a long lasting team to be reckoned with in the MIAA.

I'll take a different approach - WELCOME ABA!!!     Glad to have you join the discussion, bantering and other "fun" things that happen on this board!!

Will you be making the trek to Holland for the game? Should be a good game!!  If you do, safe travels to you!

[Flying Dutch Fan]

ABA - Thanks for posting, and I too have been impressed with Mark White and his team.  Your comparison to Wisconsin is a good one - even if it still drives me crazy every time I see Bo Ryan.   Had the Dawgs all stayed healthy this year, I suspect they could have been in a position to be in the Pool C discussion.  Given the youth of this team, the next few years look pretty bright for Adrian.

Any chance we'll see you at the game on Saturday?  Always have enjoyed talking to you and loved that we got to watch you play.

[oldknight]

Speaking of which, KVS mentioned 6-10 freshman Bryce Lutke in his post-game radio interview last night as a JV player who  made remarkable improvement during the year and could be in the varsity mix next year along with Kruis, Stout and potentially others in the low post.

Happy to see KVS paid attention to the JV team...wonder if he realizes he just went 13-13

OK I get the sarcasm, but
1.  I actually am glad that KVS pays attention to the JV team.  His job as coach is not just X's and O's but also recruiting and  building depth/future in the program.  History has shown that championship MIAA teams usually have a couple of key contributors who started at the JV level. 
2.  I'm sure he is well aware of the final record.  I'm also sure that, just like you and me, he's not thrilled with the bottom line of the 2011-12 season.  I do appreciate the fact that the sweat from the final game isn't even dry and his mind is already thinking about how to make sure that doesn't happen again.

Taken as a whole, this season was the worst we've seen in a long time.  But looking at the returning talent potential, there are many reasons to be optimistic about next season, regardless of who is coach.

I didn't get out of DeVos Fieldhouse in time Wednesday night to hear the postgame with KVS, but I'm told some of what he said tracks with what has been discussed on this board. KVS is quite disappointed with the final record as are all Calvin fans. Given the player losses which forced the Knights to use players who really weren't yet ready to be contributors, it was unsurprising to him that the team struggled. If everyone is back and healthy the team will have a totally different look for 2012-13 and will be a much more experienced team than what we saw this season. I was also very heartened--and quite surprised--to hear that Jordan Brink (currently in York, England for the semester) is already playing basketball, apparently for a club team there. He maintains regular email contact with KVS and says he plans to be fit and ready to go when he gets back. That's music to the ears of any Calvin hoops fan.

[Happy Calvin Guy]

I'd like to see the Bulldogs win an MIAA title or get into the tourney first before completely buying in.

Me too, how 'bout starting tomorrow afternoon?   

[Knight2Day]

Does anyone actually believe that KVS is on the proverbial "hot seat"?  I know he seems to be losing to Hope quite often, but looking at his records the last few years, its not like he is phoning it in.  Every coach has an off year and things simply don't go as planned.  Look at MSU and Tom Izzo last year, the team wasn't living up to expectations, but they're back on top again this year.  I think it seems to be terribly reactive to consider letting KVS go for a .500 season.  Now if next season is more of the same or worse, then it might be time to consider looking for a new coach.  But KVS can continue losing to Hope all that he wants.

First off, Flash, welcome to the site.

Second, if the Knights aren't already contemplating a coaching change with the mediocre records have been putting up the last few years (I don't give a s*** about MIAA regular season titles) then something is seriously wrong. If next year they don't make it to the Elite 8, that will be wasted careers for the likes of Tommy, Bryan and David because the team next year will have more talent than you could ever hope to wish to have on a team. Each of those players (along with the seniors for the past 5 years) have deserved to make it to the NCAA's at the very least.

[knights2000]

Does anyone actually believe that KVS is on the proverbial "hot seat"?  I know he seems to be losing to Hope quite often, but looking at his records the last few years, its not like he is phoning it in.  Every coach has an off year and things simply don't go as planned.  Look at MSU and Tom Izzo last year, the team wasn't living up to expectations, but they're back on top again this year.  I think it seems to be terribly reactive to consider letting KVS go for a .500 season.  Now if next season is more of the same or worse, then it might be time to consider looking for a new coach.  But KVS can continue losing to Hope all that he wants.

First off, Flash, welcome to the site.

Second, if the Knights aren't already contemplating a coaching change with the mediocre records have been putting up the last few years (I don't give a s*** about MIAA regular season titles) then something is seriously wrong. If next year they don't make it to the Elite 8, that will be wasted careers for the likes of Tommy, Bryan and David because the team next year will have more talent than you could ever hope to wish to have on a team. Each of those players (along with the seniors for the past 5 years) have deserved to make it to the NCAA's at the very least.

I'll ask it again: What specifically would you like to see KVS do differently that you think would win games?

[knightvision]

Posted by: Knight2Day
« on: Today at 11:08:24 am » Insert Quote

Quote from: Flash1996 on Today at 08:50:14 am
Does anyone actually believe that KVS is on the proverbial "hot seat"?  I know he seems to be losing to Hope quite often, but looking at his records the last few years, its not like he is phoning it in.  Every coach has an off year and things simply don't go as planned.  Look at MSU and Tom Izzo last year, the team wasn't living up to expectations, but they're back on top again this year.  I think it seems to be terribly reactive to consider letting KVS go for a .500 season.  Now if next season is more of the same or worse, then it might be time to consider looking for a new coach.  But KVS can continue losing to Hope all that he wants.
First off, Flash, welcome to the site.

Second, if the Knights aren't already contemplating a coaching change with the mediocre records have been putting up the last few years (I don't give a s*** about MIAA regular season titles) then something is seriously wrong. If next year they don't make it to the Elite 8, that will be wasted careers for the likes of Tommy, Bryan and David because the team next year will have more talent than you could ever hope to wish to have on a team. Each of those players (along with the seniors for the past 5 years) have deserved to make it to the NCAA's at the very least.


While I would dearly love to see Calvin make a deep tournament run next year, I simply don't agree with your assessment of the caliber of their talent.  Tommy is a very nice player, but he simply hasn't demonstrated the ability to be a consistent enough shooter to be the reliable go-to guy that nearly all elite teams seem to have.  I've shared my prediction on Powell for next year, but Oldknight's positive report on Jordan Brink and KVS's noticeable frustration with Powell's poor decision-making and defensive effort only serves to strengthen my belief that Powell will be coming off the bench next year.  If he accepts a role as a guy who provides instant offense, I can see him doing well.  If he doesn't, it's not hard to imagine a downward spiral in performance and attitude.  I'm still not sure about Rietema--I love his effort, but he has to be more of an offensive threat shooting the ball.  Will that suddenly appear between now and next year?

As for the rest of the roster, I believe the most fascinating dynamic to watch will be the competition among the large group of 3's and 4's (besides Snikkers) that are returning.  Depth can be great, but I think it will be important for at least one or two from among this group to make a big jump and separate themselves from the pack.  That will not only make Calvin better, but it will likely also make it easier to develop a reliable and regular rotation that most really good teams seem to have. 

[sac]

The comparison's of Adrian to Wisconsin is kind of interesting.  Wisconsin tries to keep the number of possessions in a game in the high 50's which is actually quite hard to do.  This year Wisconsin is at 59.5 in a league with a bunch of teams who are deliberate.   Adrian is in the low 60's in a smaller league with 2 or 3 teams that prefer a higher pace.  Its a similarity in pace of game philosophy but I don't think Mark White runs much Bo Ryan offense. 

In Wednesday's semi-final for Adrian both teams had the ball about 55 times.  This was the fewest in any MIAA game this season.

---------------------------------


Adrian rebounds 43.1% of its offensive misses.  I'm pretty confident this is among the elite in D3, better than anyone in D3's top 10 ranking even.   A much taller Calvin team rebounds 38.3%, which is still very good.   The Bulldogs are tenacious on the boards, which is much more Tom Izzo like.   Offensive rebounding really helps keep the Bulldogs in and ahead in a lot of their games.

[Knight2Day]

Does anyone actually believe that KVS is on the proverbial "hot seat"?  I know he seems to be losing to Hope quite often, but looking at his records the last few years, its not like he is phoning it in.  Every coach has an off year and things simply don't go as planned.  Look at MSU and Tom Izzo last year, the team wasn't living up to expectations, but they're back on top again this year.  I think it seems to be terribly reactive to consider letting KVS go for a .500 season.  Now if next season is more of the same or worse, then it might be time to consider looking for a new coach.  But KVS can continue losing to Hope all that he wants.

First off, Flash, welcome to the site.

Second, if the Knights aren't already contemplating a coaching change with the mediocre records have been putting up the last few years (I don't give a s*** about MIAA regular season titles) then something is seriously wrong. If next year they don't make it to the Elite 8, that will be wasted careers for the likes of Tommy, Bryan and David because the team next year will have more talent than you could ever hope to wish to have on a team. Each of those players (along with the seniors for the past 5 years) have deserved to make it to the NCAA's at the very least.

I'll ask it again: What specifically would you like to see KVS do differently that you think would win games?

K2000, how much time do you have?

For starters, ditch the defensive "system". I played in it, it doesn't work. It gives up an unholy amount of 3's (which posters who talked about the Wednesday game obviously thought was a new idea?) which, yes if the team you're playing is terrible from the outside will work, but if you play anyone with a halfway decent 3 point shooter, all you have to do is put them on the weak side every rotation and you'll have enough time to make a sandwich before shooting the ball (just ask Bowser, Tanis, Reimink, Immink, Schneider from Alma this season). If you look at the majority of loses that Calvin has had over the past, oh say, 6 seasons, you can look back and see just how big of a role this had played. With as much length as Calvin had this season, if KVS would have actually practiced a 2-3 zone (which they don't do), they could have gone all Jim Boeheim on the MIAA and shaken things up.

Secondly, the offensive system. Granted TK did get more touches at points of the season, you have what Calvin posters would consider "the best big man in the MIAA" and averaged 11ppg? And how many of those were off of put backs and scrap plays? A whole lot of them when I watched the Knights this season (which was definitely more than once or twice). It's the same thing that happened with John Mantel who arguably could have been an All American had somebody been allowed to come forward to work with him on his post game (Ed Douma era players? *cough*cough*). But I digress, in TK, you had a player who should have had the offense run through him and had so many pick and rolls run that you could have confused the Knights for the Utah Jazz of the 1990's,  especially with players who like to go to the hole as much as Tommy, David, and Powell. Instead, in most games, you had the typical run of the mill attempted dribble drive, kick out or throw up a prayer shot. Calvin could have gone from a fg% of .440 to around .5 due to the access of more high percentage shots (look at how De-bo made his living this season)

Thirdly, substitutions. This is a topic that could get hit on for the next half decade and you'd still have more to talk about. Take for example the Calvin v. Hope game at VNA this season. Why would you put in Nate Van Eck for Tyler Kruis in any situation. Ever. Van Eck has his ups (literally, kid can jump out of the gym), but in a situation where you need someone to play even 5 minutes on the defensive end, put in Dan Stout who in his time on varsity did a pretty darn good job on the defensive end, mainly due to the fact he has a wingspan of a 747. Granted the Hope game is not necessarily the best example of ridiculous subbing due to the TV timeouts. Look at the Trine game when we LOST. Calvin starters avg minutes played-23. Trine avg minutes played for starters-34.6...now either Trine's players are in incredibly better shape, or the subbing pattern sucks. The fact that Calvin's startes played an average of almost 12 minutes less might play a role in the fact that they got beat by almost 20. It's hard to get yourself in a groove on the floor when you're only playing in 4 minute spurts. Not sure if you posters know this but the sheet that JVD carries on the bench, it's the times that players go in and out of the game. Kind of absurd eh? Ever wonder why players like Caleb Veldhouse and John Mantel were visibly perturbed when being taken out of the game after making a few good plays in a row and getting themselves going?

That's all I feel like throwing out there for right now, I'm sure someone who's been drinking gallons of the kool-aid will refute my arguments and tell me how little I know about the game and how it is coached, but from a little bit of experience, and a little bit of knowledge about the inner workings of Calvin basketball that I would dare to bet I have over at least a few of the posters, I'm pretty confident in all of my arguments. And that as they say, is all I have to say about that. With the right things done, this season could have easily been salvaged and rather than being a 4th seed in the MIAA tourny and finished 13-13, the Knights could have been 17-9 and could have been playing Hope on Saturday. No disrespect to the other schools in the MIAA, Alma is much improved under Hargraves, Trine seems to be putting their talent to great use, Albion is always a dog fight, Adrian is about as well coached as it gets, and Hope, well, you guys just have it all this season. But that still leaves no excuse for the things I listed for the Knights.

[Adrian Bulldawg Alum]

The comparison's of Adrian to Wisconsin is kind of interesting.  Wisconsin tries to keep the number of possessions in a game in the high 50's which is actually quite hard to do.  This year Wisconsin is at 59.5 in a league with a bunch of teams who are deliberate.   Adrian is in the low 60's in a smaller league with 2 or 3 teams that prefer a higher pace.  Its a similarity in pace of game philosophy but I don't think Mark White runs much Bo Ryan offense. 

In Wednesday's semi-final for Adrian both teams had the ball about 55 times.  This was the fewest in any MIAA game this season.

---------------------------------


Adrian rebounds 43.1% of its offensive misses.  I'm pretty confident this is among the elite in D3, better than anyone in D3's top 10 ranking even.   A much taller Calvin team rebounds 38.3%, which is still very good.   The Bulldogs are tenacious on the boards, which is much more Tom Izzo like.   Offensive rebounding really helps keep the Bulldogs in and ahead in a lot of their games.

Very true Sac about the offense and great point of comparison of rebounding like some Izzo teams.  I should have been more direct because I really meant in their slower style of play, or as you say, keeping possessions lower.  When you know someone is the better team, a lower amount of possessions allows for a better chance of victory since, in the long run, the better team will do better.  Plus, a young team like Adrian would love to be in a game that is within 5 points with 5 minutes to go.  I think that will be key to their confidence as a young team.

GoHope...thank you for the warm welcome and also thanks to the others that promoted safe travels. 

Sadly, after 3 straight free weekends, I have 3 commitments, 1 of which I already have to cancel, but I will have my labtop open for sure.  Brian Schafer, Mark Bohlen, Andy Kubish and myself all talked about roadtripping, but 3 of us are very busy and one is a 6 hour drive from his place.  As someone who is now 30 (already?!?), I look forward to future travels to these games and talking some hoops with some of you fabled posters.  I suppose some of the rough years after I graduated made me not pay as much attention as I should've.

[sflzman]

I have been catching up on what has been going on and the focus on Hope vs. Calvin (as it has been for years) is a bit tiring.

"Other" posters chiming in once in a blue moon complaining about the Hope and Calvin focus is also a bit tiring. If you want your team talked about more regularly, then chime in more regularly. And tell your friends about the site, and have them engage in thoughtful discussion as well.

BTW, I also believe that Adrian will have staying power in the MIAA as a quality team. sac called them "the new Albion" a few days ago, and that may prove to be true. I'd like to see the Bulldogs win an MIAA title or get into the tourney first before completely buying in. Right now, I'd still just call Adrian a pest but I think they're building something good.

I agree with you guys as well. I think with Adrian progressing, Alma looking positive, especially with how this year finished off in Hargraves' first season, and with a coaching change Olivet hopefully bouncing into the mix as well it will turn into some fun and close battles over the next few years in the MIAA..

[Civic Minded]

Glad you're here, ABA!  Thanks for taking the time to post.  This board can only get better wtih more people willing to step in and balance out the avid Hope and Calvin posters. 

[sflzman]

The comparison's of Adrian to Wisconsin is kind of interesting.  Wisconsin tries to keep the number of possessions in a game in the high 50's which is actually quite hard to do.  This year Wisconsin is at 59.5 in a league with a bunch of teams who are deliberate.   Adrian is in the low 60's in a smaller league with 2 or 3 teams that prefer a higher pace.  Its a similarity in pace of game philosophy but I don't think Mark White runs much Bo Ryan offense. 

In Wednesday's semi-final for Adrian both teams had the ball about 55 times.  This was the fewest in any MIAA game this season.

---------------------------------


Adrian rebounds 43.1% of its offensive misses.  I'm pretty confident this is among the elite in D3, better than anyone in D3's top 10 ranking even.   A much taller Calvin team rebounds 38.3%, which is still very good.   The Bulldogs are tenacious on the boards, which is much more Tom Izzo like.   Offensive rebounding really helps keep the Bulldogs in and ahead in a lot of their games.

I can't find that particular stat on ncaa.com, but I did find that the bulldogs are 28th in the country in rebounding margain.

Also, while talking about stats....Cory Schneider's final 3 pt percentage puts him at 4th in the country