MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

We've actually had pretty good parity for a couple years in the middle of the league.  I expect the parity will be of a better kind at least for next season.  What Hope has done the last two years is very unusual in any league.

Honestly I feel Olivet has made a huge, huge mistake letting Gifford go.  This is going to hurt them for a couple years.

[GoKnights68]

We've actually had pretty good parity for a couple years in the middle of the league.  I expect the parity will be of a better kind at least for next season.  What Hope has done the last two years is very unusual in any league.

Honestly I feel Olivet has made a huge, huge mistake letting Gifford go.  This is going to hurt them for a couple years.

I agree.  Was it strictly based on performance, though?  If so, I don't understand.

[Civic Minded]

We've actually had pretty good parity for a couple years in the middle of the league.  I expect the parity will be of a better kind at least for next season.  What Hope has done the last two years is very unusual in any league.

Honestly I feel Olivet has made a huge, huge mistake letting Gifford go.  This is going to hurt them for a couple years.

I agree.  Was it strictly based on performance, though?  If so, I don't understand.

I have no idea, but I agree, GK68.  If solely based on performance, I don't understand either.  Wouldn't they expect a rebuilding year after last season?

[sac]

The comparison's of Adrian to Wisconsin is kind of interesting.  Wisconsin tries to keep the number of possessions in a game in the high 50's which is actually quite hard to do.  This year Wisconsin is at 59.5 in a league with a bunch of teams who are deliberate.   Adrian is in the low 60's in a smaller league with 2 or 3 teams that prefer a higher pace.  Its a similarity in pace of game philosophy but I don't think Mark White runs much Bo Ryan offense. 

In Wednesday's semi-final for Adrian both teams had the ball about 55 times.  This was the fewest in any MIAA game this season.

---------------------------------


Adrian rebounds 43.1% of its offensive misses.  I'm pretty confident this is among the elite in D3, better than anyone in D3's top 10 ranking even.   A much taller Calvin team rebounds 38.3%, which is still very good.   The Bulldogs are tenacious on the boards, which is much more Tom Izzo like.   Offensive rebounding really helps keep the Bulldogs in and ahead in a lot of their games.

I can't find that particular stat on ncaa.com, but I did find that the bulldogs are 28th in the country in rebounding margain.

Also, while talking about stats....Cory Schneider's final 3 pt percentage puts him at 4th in the country

You can't find that stat because it doesn't exist.  You have to 'dig' it out of the numbers.  I prefer rebound % to just a rebounding number (even margin doesn't tell you much).  Rebounding is to dependent on FG%

Calvin and Adrian are actually perfect examples to use here.

Calvin has 1052 total rebounds or 40.5 per game
Adrian has 970 or 38.8 per game

Most people would probably look at that and assume Calvin is better on the boards.  But Adrian gets 43.2% of thier offensive rebounds, Calvin 38.3%.

They both give up 30.1% on the defensive end.  So despite getting more rebounds per game than Adrian.  I would classify Adrian as a better rebounding team.  Not by much but just a little better.



Maybe a better in game example was the Hope @ Adrian game.   For the game Adrian had 45 rebounds to Hope's 43.  Most people would also see Adrian had 28 offensive rebounds to Hope 16, the logical thought would be Hope got killed on the offensive boards, I probably even made that comment myself.  But the reality is this...

Adrian had 28 offensive rebounds on 50 missed shots, a pretty incredible 56%.

But Hope rebounded 16 of their 32 misses for 50%...........so what looks like Hope being killed on the glass was actually Hope being just as good as Adrian on the glass and probably nullifying what Adrian did, they just missed fewer shots and had fewer opportunities to grab rebounds.   

[KnightSlappy]

For starters, ditch the defensive "system". I played in it, it doesn't work. It gives up an unholy amount of 3's (which posters who talked about the Wednesday game obviously thought was a new idea?) which, yes if the team you're playing is terrible from the outside will work, but if you play anyone with a halfway decent 3 point shooter, all you have to do is put them on the weak side every rotation and you'll have enough time to make a sandwich before shooting the ball (just ask Bowser, Tanis, Reimink, Immink, Schneider from Alma this season). If you look at the majority of loses that Calvin has had over the past, oh say, 6 seasons, you can look back and see just how big of a role this had played. With as much length as Calvin had this season, if KVS would have actually practiced a 2-3 zone (which they don't do), they could have gone all Jim Boeheim on the MIAA and shaken things up.

Because at the top of the list of ways to prevent three pointers is a 2-3 zone? I don't follow that logic.

[wiz]

For starters, ditch the defensive "system". I played in it, it doesn't work. It gives up an unholy amount of 3's (which posters who talked about the Wednesday game obviously thought was a new idea?) which, yes if the team you're playing is terrible from the outside will work, but if you play anyone with a halfway decent 3 point shooter, all you have to do is put them on the weak side every rotation and you'll have enough time to make a sandwich before shooting the ball (just ask Bowser, Tanis, Reimink, Immink, Schneider from Alma this season). If you look at the majority of loses that Calvin has had over the past, oh say, 6 seasons, you can look back and see just how big of a role this had played. With as much length as Calvin had this season, if KVS would have actually practiced a 2-3 zone (which they don't do), they could have gone all Jim Boeheim on the MIAA and shaken things up.

Because at the top of the list of ways to prevent three pointers is a 2-3 zone? I don't follow that logic.

KnightSlappy, please don't start inserting "logic" into Knight2Day's assertions.

[Knight2Day]

For starters, ditch the defensive "system". I played in it, it doesn't work. It gives up an unholy amount of 3's (which posters who talked about the Wednesday game obviously thought was a new idea?) which, yes if the team you're playing is terrible from the outside will work, but if you play anyone with a halfway decent 3 point shooter, all you have to do is put them on the weak side every rotation and you'll have enough time to make a sandwich before shooting the ball (just ask Bowser, Tanis, Reimink, Immink, Schneider from Alma this season). If you look at the majority of loses that Calvin has had over the past, oh say, 6 seasons, you can look back and see just how big of a role this had played. With as much length as Calvin had this season, if KVS would have actually practiced a 2-3 zone (which they don't do), they could have gone all Jim Boeheim on the MIAA and shaken things up.

Because at the top of the list of ways to prevent three pointers is a 2-3 zone? I don't follow that logic.

KS, I'm happy to know that the biggest critique you have of my argument is what type of defense I would replace KVS system with.....I used the 2-3 as an example, I could have used a 1-3-1, 3-2, box and one, or a man to man with less of a concentration on the help side if you would have liked, but I just threw 2-3 out as an example of something that would have been worth trying against teams that OBVIOUSLY KNOW WHAT TO DO AGAINST US. And yes, I think that given the right lineup (i.e. Rietema at the 1, Tommy at the 2, Ty Dy at the 3, Dan Stout at 4, and TK at 5) you would have a lineup that's length and athleticism would allow you to play that type of system. Earlier in the season it would have made even more sense with Mickey and Mitch Vallie still available.

And wiz, really? You wouldn't like to step inside my brain and know the things I know if you think that my logic is flawed on this subject. I guess your logic on what makes a successful program is the thing that I would say is flawed....haven't had a 20 win season in 6 years or been to the NCAA's in 5. Man, I'm happy I don't have the same standards for success as some of you. But you probably think that we just haven't had the talent in the past half decade to win that many games, or maybe because the team didn't run the system right for all those years, or the lighting in the gym was wrong, or that the water wasn't cold enough so the team couldn't understand what coach was saying...?

[wiz]

Knight2Day
Second-stringer

That says it all.

[SKOT]

For starters, ditch the defensive "system". I played in it, it doesn't work. It gives up an unholy amount of 3's (which posters who talked about the Wednesday game obviously thought was a new idea?) which, yes if the team you're playing is terrible from the outside will work, but if you play anyone with a halfway decent 3 point shooter, all you have to do is put them on the weak side every rotation and you'll have enough time to make a sandwich before shooting the ball (just ask Bowser, Tanis, Reimink, Immink, Schneider from Alma this season). If you look at the majority of loses that Calvin has had over the past, oh say, 6 seasons, you can look back and see just how big of a role this had played. With as much length as Calvin had this season, if KVS would have actually practiced a 2-3 zone (which they don't do), they could have gone all Jim Boeheim on the MIAA and shaken things up.

Because at the top of the list of ways to prevent three pointers is a 2-3 zone? I don't follow that logic.

KS, I'm happy to know that the biggest critique you have of my argument is what type of defense I would replace KVS system with.....I used the 2-3 as an example, I could have used a 1-3-1, 3-2, box and one, or a man to man with less of a concentration on the help side if you would have liked, but I just threw 2-3 out as an example of something that would have been worth trying against teams that OBVIOUSLY KNOW WHAT TO DO AGAINST US. And yes, I think that given the right lineup (i.e. Rietema at the 1, Tommy at the 2, Ty Dy at the 3, Dan Stout at 4, and TK at 5) you would have a lineup that's length and athleticism would allow you to play that type of system. Earlier in the season it would have made even more sense with Mickey and Mitch Vallie still available.

And wiz, really? You wouldn't like to step inside my brain and know the things I know if you think that my logic is flawed on this subject. I guess your logic on what makes a successful program is the thing that I would say is flawed....haven't had a 20 win season in 6 years or been to the NCAA's in 5. Man, I'm happy I don't have the same standards for success as some of you. But you probably think that we just haven't had the talent in the past half decade to win that many games, or maybe because the team didn't run the system right for all those years, or the lighting in the gym was wrong, or that the water wasn't cold enough so the team couldn't understand what coach was saying...?

Knight2Day
Second-stringer

That says it all.

If you guys want to have a measuring contest, PMs work just as well.

Heck, I will even provide the tape measure, but I won't judge!

[Knight2Day]

Knight2Day
Second-stringer

That says it all.

You having posted more times than I have doesn't say anything except that you've spat out more garbage than you care to remember

[KnightSlappy]

For starters, ditch the defensive "system". I played in it, it doesn't work. It gives up an unholy amount of 3's (which posters who talked about the Wednesday game obviously thought was a new idea?) which, yes if the team you're playing is terrible from the outside will work, but if you play anyone with a halfway decent 3 point shooter, all you have to do is put them on the weak side every rotation and you'll have enough time to make a sandwich before shooting the ball (just ask Bowser, Tanis, Reimink, Immink, Schneider from Alma this season). If you look at the majority of loses that Calvin has had over the past, oh say, 6 seasons, you can look back and see just how big of a role this had played. With as much length as Calvin had this season, if KVS would have actually practiced a 2-3 zone (which they don't do), they could have gone all Jim Boeheim on the MIAA and shaken things up.

I do like that KVS was willing to switch it up on occasion and use the zone, but, as you point out, it was usually apparent that they don't practice it often enough. They do have the length to play an efficient zone, and the 1-3-1 is a general favorite of mine. I'd like to see them be able to switch to some sort of zone (or press, or something with more confidence). My biggest beef with the defense is that KVS doesn't like to trap. That's what I'd like to see more of (I like that the 1-3-1 allows players to jump passing lanes and trap opponents in the corners). But even with the man-to-man helpside defense, you could trap more and force more turnovers.

I don't think weak side threes are a big deal. Adrian's defense is often lauded on this board, but in terms of allowing points on shots, they were better than Calvin by less than a point and a half per game this conference season. That's a big deal-ish, but not drastically different. By my math, allowing an Adrian-esque .441 eFG% (instead of .465) would have increased their conference record by about 0.52 wins.

Secondly, the offensive system. Granted TK did get more touches at points of the season, you have what Calvin posters would consider "the best big man in the MIAA" and averaged 11ppg? And how many of those were off of put backs and scrap plays? A whole lot of them when I watched the Knights this season (which was definitely more than once or twice). It's the same thing that happened with John Mantel who arguably could have been an All American had somebody been allowed to come forward to work with him on his post game (Ed Douma era players? *cough*cough*). But I digress, in TK, you had a player who should have had the offense run through him and had so many pick and rolls run that you could have confused the Knights for the Utah Jazz of the 1990's,  especially with players who like to go to the hole as much as Tommy, David, and Powell. Instead, in most games, you had the typical run of the mill attempted dribble drive, kick out or throw up a prayer shot. Calvin could have gone from a fg% of .440 to around .5 due to the access of more high percentage shots (look at how De-bo made his living this season)

I agree that Tyler needs to be a bigger part of the offense, and it always grieved me a bit to hear KVS talk about Tom as the guy they needed to "go through" for their offense, but let's be honest about where Kruis was to start the year. He was a true sophomore who had averaged 16 minutes and shot 41% the year before (taking one-third of his shots from three point range). He showed us talent, sure, but I don't think you could have (or should have) expected KVS to go into the year with TK as the main target. He proved his improvement, and I think he was targeted more as the year went on.

Thirdly, substitutions. This is a topic that could get hit on for the next half decade and you'd still have more to talk about. Take for example the Calvin v. Hope game at VNA this season. Why would you put in Nate Van Eck for Tyler Kruis in any situation. Ever. Van Eck has his ups (literally, kid can jump out of the gym), but in a situation where you need someone to play even 5 minutes on the defensive end, put in Dan Stout who in his time on varsity did a pretty darn good job on the defensive end, mainly due to the fact he has a wingspan of a 747. Granted the Hope game is not necessarily the best example of ridiculous subbing due to the TV timeouts. Look at the Trine game when we LOST. Calvin starters avg minutes played-23. Trine avg minutes played for starters-34.6...now either Trine's players are in incredibly better shape, or the subbing pattern sucks. The fact that Calvin's startes played an average of almost 12 minutes less might play a role in the fact that they got beat by almost 20. It's hard to get yourself in a groove on the floor when you're only playing in 4 minute spurts. Not sure if you posters know this but the sheet that JVD carries on the bench, it's the times that players go in and out of the game. Kind of absurd eh? Ever wonder why players like Caleb Veldhouse and John Mantel were visibly perturbed when being taken out of the game after making a few good plays in a row and getting themselves going?

Planning and preparation is absurd? KVS doesn't stick to the list 100%; it's simply the game plan.

[oldknight]

I do have some agreement with K2D, including my dislike of arbitrary substitution patterns. I think he misses the point of my comment about Calvin's apparent strategy to challenge Hope to beat them from the arc. While there is room for criticism of Calvin's standard defensive approach (I've done so myself), my point was that the Knights seemed--as a deliberate strategy--to invite Hope to take that shot, and this is not what Calvin normally does. Part of the reason I think this was intentional is because normally KVS reserves his loudest, most animated foot stomps for the defender who is late to recover on the skip pass to the weak side. Wednesday night, there wasn't a foot stomp to be seen or heard in DeVos Fieldhouse.

[arena]

For starters, ditch the defensive "system". I played in it, it doesn't work. It gives up an unholy amount of 3's (which posters who talked about the Wednesday game obviously thought was a new idea?) which, yes if the team you're playing is terrible from the outside will work, but if you play anyone with a halfway decent 3 point shooter, all you have to do is put them on the weak side every rotation and you'll have enough time to make a sandwich before shooting the ball (just ask Bowser, Tanis, Reimink, Immink, Schneider from Alma this season). If you look at the majority of loses that Calvin has had over the past, oh say, 6 seasons, you can look back and see just how big of a role this had played. With as much length as Calvin had this season, if KVS would have actually practiced a 2-3 zone (which they don't do), they could have gone all Jim Boeheim on the MIAA and shaken things up.

Because at the top of the list of ways to prevent three pointers is a 2-3 zone? I don't follow that logic.

KS, I'm happy to know that the biggest critique you have of my argument is what type of defense I would replace KVS system with.....I used the 2-3 as an example, I could have used a 1-3-1, 3-2, box and one, or a man to man with less of a concentration on the help side if you would have liked, but I just threw 2-3 out as an example of something that would have been worth trying against teams that OBVIOUSLY KNOW WHAT TO DO AGAINST US. And yes, I think that given the right lineup (i.e. Rietema at the 1, Tommy at the 2, Ty Dy at the 3, Dan Stout at 4, and TK at 5) you would have a lineup that's length and athleticism would allow you to play that type of system. Earlier in the season it would have made even more sense with Mickey and Mitch Vallie still available.

And wiz, really? You wouldn't like to step inside my brain and know the things I know if you think that my logic is flawed on this subject. I guess your logic on what makes a successful program is the thing that I would say is flawed....haven't had a 20 win season in 6 years or been to the NCAA's in 5. Man, I'm happy I don't have the same standards for success as some of you. But you probably think that we just haven't had the talent in the past half decade to win that many games, or maybe because the team didn't run the system right for all those years, or the lighting in the gym was wrong, or that the water wasn't cold enough so the team couldn't understand what coach was saying...?

I go back and forth about a change at Calvin.  I'd love to give KVS a mulligan this year.  There were a lot of things that happened that are out of his control, the injury situation is one couldn't control, losing players to grades, I can't give a pass on. 

I'm not upset with the defensive scheme.  I understand what the goal is, but if the players can't effectively execute the system, the system needs to be adjusted.  What concerns me the most is some coaching decisions.  I keep going back to teh second Hope game last year.  Calvin was aggressive on offense and were executing well.  But for some reason, KVS changed the plan.  He let the team play too passively, which let Hope make its comeback.  That wasn't the players, that was the coaching.

I don't know what to think.  Is one more year for KVS worth it?  If there are coaching issues, will another year hurt the team?  Or is the lack of performance just a growing pain issue for the players?

Should he stay or should he go?  I don't know.  Too disgusted by recent play to give an unemotional answer, which is goodbye KVS.

[knights2000]

For starters, ditch the defensive "system". I played in it, it doesn't work. It gives up an unholy amount of 3's (which posters who talked about the Wednesday game obviously thought was a new idea?) which, yes if the team you're playing is terrible from the outside will work, but if you play anyone with a halfway decent 3 point shooter, all you have to do is put them on the weak side every rotation and you'll have enough time to make a sandwich before shooting the ball (just ask Bowser, Tanis, Reimink, Immink, Schneider from Alma this season). If you look at the majority of loses that Calvin has had over the past, oh say, 6 seasons, you can look back and see just how big of a role this had played. With as much length as Calvin had this season, if KVS would have actually practiced a 2-3 zone (which they don't do), they could have gone all Jim Boeheim on the MIAA and shaken things up.

Because at the top of the list of ways to prevent three pointers is a 2-3 zone? I don't follow that logic.

KS, I'm happy to know that the biggest critique you have of my argument is what type of defense I would replace KVS system with.....I used the 2-3 as an example, I could have used a 1-3-1, 3-2, box and one, or a man to man with less of a concentration on the help side if you would have liked, but I just threw 2-3 out as an example of something that would have been worth trying against teams that OBVIOUSLY KNOW WHAT TO DO AGAINST US. And yes, I think that given the right lineup (i.e. Rietema at the 1, Tommy at the 2, Ty Dy at the 3, Dan Stout at 4, and TK at 5) you would have a lineup that's length and athleticism would allow you to play that type of system. Earlier in the season it would have made even more sense with Mickey and Mitch Vallie still available.

And wiz, really? You wouldn't like to step inside my brain and know the things I know if you think that my logic is flawed on this subject. I guess your logic on what makes a successful program is the thing that I would say is flawed....haven't had a 20 win season in 6 years or been to the NCAA's in 5. Man, I'm happy I don't have the same standards for success as some of you. But you probably think that we just haven't had the talent in the past half decade to win that many games, or maybe because the team didn't run the system right for all those years, or the lighting in the gym was wrong, or that the water wasn't cold enough so the team couldn't understand what coach was saying...?

I go back and forth about a change at Calvin.  I'd love to give KVS a mulligan this year.  There were a lot of things that happened that are out of his control, the injury situation is one couldn't control, losing players to grades, I can't give a pass on. 

I'm not upset with the defensive scheme.  I understand what the goal is, but if the players can't effectively execute the system, the system needs to be adjusted.  What concerns me the most is some coaching decisions.  I keep going back to teh second Hope game last year.  Calvin was aggressive on offense and were executing well.  But for some reason, KVS changed the plan.  He let the team play too passively, which let Hope make its comeback.  That wasn't the players, that was the coaching.

I don't know what to think.  Is one more year for KVS worth it?  If there are coaching issues, will another year hurt the team?  Or is the lack of performance just a growing pain issue for the players?

Should he stay or should he go?  I don't know.  Too disgusted by recent play to give an unemotional answer, which is goodbye KVS.

Not that it makes a huge difference, but from my understanding grades weren't the issue; class attendance was.

[sac]

Maybe we should set up a board for disgruntled Calvin fan conversations.   This is not fun to read with 2 teams still playing and at least one playing in the NCAA's not named Calvin.

Time and place maybe?