MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[wiz]

Congratulations to Hope College on a very successful season.  Only two losses and to formidable teams.  Undefeated through the MIAA.  Three rivalry victories.  Memorable tournament performance by Snuggerud.  MVP year for Krombeen.  Comeback year for Bunnn.  NCAA tournament appearance and much, much more. 

[AndersDY]

While you can always try to best schedule to prepare yourself for the post-season, I don't know that this was an issue that stung this Hope team. As others pointed out, we do have a pair of games set up annually with the CCIW, which is a pretty good start (thought it is also dependent upon how strong Carthage or Wheaton are for that year). I didn't get the sense that Hope was unprepared for a strong battle-tested team like they got last night. They did come out focused and blew the game open for 5-8 minutes at the beginning. It simply seemed that some parts of the team were getting cold at the wrong time of the year.

The Adrian game was worrisome and apart from Snuggerud, there were portions of the team not performing in the past 2 weeks as well as they did during Hope's stronger parts of the year. If some other contributors were closer to the 'A' games we had seen from them at certain points during the season, Hope certainly had the pieces to win that game last night. (Heck, if they shoot 70% from the line, we're still here celebrating with no talk of OT's even.) Hope had a darn good team this year. As I assessed during the week, they did seem to lack a couple small factors that didn't quite match them up against 96/98/08 teams. In the tournament, you have to have a good team, be peaking at the right time, and get some good fortune. Another example of where if you only accomplish 1 out of 3 of those things, you're likely to lose to a strong team, as we saw last night.

That game was certainly worth the price of admission and I agree with IWU's coach that you wish a team didn't have to lose it. Normally I would want to see the winner of a game like that go as far as possible, but in my case I have other interests so Go Woo!! (though if that can't happen next week, then Go Titans from that point on).

[sac]

Somewhere inside Illinois Wesleyan's Shirk Center will sit the net from DeVos Fieldhouse's arch end basket.  I really didn't know what to think about IWU's request to cut down the net, I mean its round two and you just don't do that. 

I don't really like it, Scott, but nets have been cut down at every regional (and sectional) I have been at for the last 6-7 years.  As far as I know, it has become kind of standard thing...and the NCAA rep at the game helps coordinate it.

I know it happened at other games last night across the country.

Well it was the first time I've seen it, or can remember it.  I don't remember who told me IWU requested it, so I was going on that.   All the same, you could tell it meant a little bit more than just advancing to the Sectional.

[northb]

Congrats to Hope on an excellent season.  As Calvin fans know from the past, a succussful championship run can hang on bounce or two this way or that.  As it seems I have been saying for too many years now, they have nothing to hang their heads about.  Thanks to (almost) all the posters for another enjoyable year of reading, and a little banter.

We will see you next season, I'm gonna go lurk around the Women's MIAA board for a bit longer.

[sac]

Massey ranks Hope's opponents like this.......bold = non-conference

Western Michigan       1.21
Wheaton                .78
Indiana Wesleyan    .53
Marian                  .52
Spring Arbor           .38
Cornerstone           .32
Marietta                .25
Adrian                   .25
Rochester              .23
Carthage               .11
Aquinas                 .08
Calvin                  -.05
Trine                   -.07
Albion                  -.21
Mr. Vernon Naz.    -.35
Alma                   -.43
Kalamazoo            -.54
Olivet                 -.82

NCAA Tournament
Westminster          -.30
Illinois Wesleyan      .62

[oldknight]

Somewhere inside Illinois Wesleyan's Shirk Center will sit the net from DeVos Fieldhouse's arch end basket.  I really didn't know what to think about IWU's request to cut down the net, I mean its round two and you just don't do that. 

I don't really like it, Scott, but nets have been cut down at every regional (and sectional) I have been at for the last 6-7 years.  As far as I know, it has become kind of standard thing...and the NCAA rep at the game helps coordinate it.

I know it happened at other games last night across the country.

Well it was the first time I've seen it, or can remember it.  I don't remember who told me IWU requested it, so I was going on that.   All the same, you could tell it meant a little bit more than just advancing to the Sectional.

I don't get it. I understand the net cutting ceremony if you have just won your conference championship or advanced to the Final Four, but after winning a round of 32 game? I didn't see the Calvin women cut the nets at Van Noord Arena last night and if I had I would have thought that to be quite strange.

[knightvision]

Somewhere inside Illinois Wesleyan's Shirk Center will sit the net from DeVos Fieldhouse's arch end basket.  I really didn't know what to think about IWU's request to cut down the net, I mean its round two and you just don't do that. 

I don't really like it, Scott, but nets have been cut down at every regional (and sectional) I have been at for the last 6-7 years.  As far as I know, it has become kind of standard thing...and the NCAA rep at the game helps coordinate it.

I know it happened at other games last night across the country.

Well it was the first time I've seen it, or can remember it.  I don't remember who told me IWU requested it, so I was going on that.   All the same, you could tell it meant a little bit more than just advancing to the Sectional.

I don't get it. I understand the net cutting ceremony if you have just won your conference championship or advanced to the Final Four, but after winning a round of 32 game? I didn't see the Calvin women cut the nets at Van Noord Arena last night and if I had I would have thought that to be quite strange.

If I were a coach, I might ask the NCAA rep to cut it down unbeknownst to my team.  Nice to have to drape over the regional trophy (I'm assuming regional winners get one) for the trophy case, but the message I would be focusing on is that this is just one step in the process--great win, but we've got 2 more next week...and after that, hopefully two more. 

[sac]

A "new" reality facing MIAA schools(or at least the ones closet to the Lake) that needs to be pointed out is the change in NCAA pairings that's taken place this decade.

From 1990 to 2001 and again in 2004 and 2008 the MIAA rep/reps that went the furthest in the tournament received what I would call a Great Lakes bracket, defined as playing mostly Great Lakes teams in the first couple rounds.  14 instances--9 Sectionals(10 counting  Albion), 5 trips to the Final Four, .

Since 2002 the league(almost exclusively Hope) has been mostly shifted further west and paired with Midwest and West region schools. 9 instances, 3 sectionals,  1 trip to the Final Four, Calvin's in 2005 when the played Wheaton and Aurora.


The bottom line here is the Midwest/West is the power region of D3 and has been for a long time and its not likely to change in the future.  Its just going to be much, much harder to reach the Final Four through those brackets.  Heck the CCIW being as strong of a conference as its been has only reached Salem twice(?) in the last 10 years going though pretty much the same path.

In order for Hope to advance through that kind of bracket they need to be bigger, stronger, quicker.  Recruit those kinds of players and you're likely to blow through the MIAA much like Hope did this past season, and you're stuck in the same situation Hope was this year.......almost all of your toughest games were in the non-conference portion of your schedule.  That's an imbalance that can't really be corrected unless the league gets stronger, which it probably will its just going to take awhile to climb out of its current 4 or 5 year malaise.  But the league will never be as tough or as deep as the CCIW or WIAC (and if it ever is I wish to see it).

But I don't see a lot that Hope could have done different with this years schedule given the parameters these days.  We would all like to see good D3 teams but they are so few and far between its just really hard for those things to work out sometimes.

Hope's avg non-conference game using that massey list and taking out the WMU game was a power rating of .29.  Of the D3 schools that would be in-region  I count only 8 that would have increased the strength of Hope's non-conference schedule, they already played Wheaton (who was by massey the toughest in-region game Hope could schedule.)   

Lake Forest
North Central
Wabash
Wittenberg
Wooster
Ohio Wesleyan
Transylvania
Bethany, WV
(6 of these 8 teams made the D3 tournament)

We played Lake Forest last year and had to do it in Florida to make it happen.  North Central, Wabash, OWU and Bethany I group in the same boat...could Hope have really counted on those teams to be as strong as they ended up being last spring when they started working on a schedule.  Witt/Woo...I'm sorry but unless some amazing MIAA/NCAC challenge happens these schools will probably never appear on a non-conference schedule.  Transylvania is just plain too far away.

Playing IWU the next 3 years will help, (and my God don't we all want to see that again), and I'm hopeful a couple other rumored schedule changes become reality (NCAC/OAC challenge anyone?).  But Matt Neil and his staff put together a heck of schedule this year, I'm not sure they could have done anything much different that would have made it stronger and still remain a realistic schedule.


I know some of those NAIA/NCCAA schools don't have the familiarity and big names of some D3 schools, but look around D3 and count how many teams played a non-conference schedule with 6 teams playing in the post-season.

[wooscotsfan]

sac - Wooster has scheduled a number of MIAA non-conference games over the years.  This year, Wooster scheduled and won a game AT Adrian.  In past years, Wooster has played AT Albion and invited Calvin, Kalamazoo to Wooster's tourney.

There is no reason why even more NCAC vs. MIAA games can't be scheduled.  I don't understand your comment that an "amazing MIAA/NCAC challenge" is required before Hope plays either Wooster or Wittenberg??

Congratulations to Hope on a fine season and winning the MIAA again!

[Flash1996]

Heart breaking loss for the Dutchmen last night.  In contrast to what other posters have said, I believe Hope played some of its worst basketball in the second half of the season.  By simply watching them nearly get beaten by Albion and allowing Olivet to man handle them in the first half its obvious that they did not deserve to be number one.  Many people have pointed out that teams played well against Hope, but if Hope was that dominant then neither Olivet nor Albion would have been a challenge.  If the MIAA wasn't such a weak conference this season, then certainly Hope would have lost.  This was not the team of years past that had to struggle with a very tough conference schedule.  Lets face it no one else made the big dance or was even close to being considered.  In '96, '98 and '05 Hope had to battle tought opponents who made the post season tournament.  The OT victory over Adrian showed that Hope was a flawed team that could show signs of brilliance at times, but a majority of the time lacked a killer instinct to put teams away early.  Aside from a few games in the second half of the season, they had far too many close games against weak teams.  I'm sure the coaches of Westminister and IWU got the video footage of those games and learned to exploit Hope's weaknesses.  If it wasn't for Snuggerud's fantastic performance on Friday, this discussion would have happened on Friday night.  Please feel free to disagree, this is only my opinion.

[ScotsFan]

Playing IWU the next 3 years will help, (and my God don't we all want to see that again), and I'm hopeful a couple other rumored schedule changes become reality (NCAC/OAC challenge anyone?).  But Matt Neil and his staff put together a heck of schedule this year, I'm not sure they could have done anything much different that would have made it stronger and still remain a realistic schedule.

I don't know why we can't get an NCAC/MIAA challenge going.  There already is the NCAC/OAC challenge.  Also, Wooster is always scheduling at least one MIAA opponent every year as do several other NCAC schools like Denison and Kenyon.  Maybe the thought of doing more than one conference challenge is too much?  I don't know.  I just know I'd like to see it happen and I'd like to see Hope matched up with Witt and Woo if this challenge ever takes place.   

EDIT:  wsf beat me to it!     After posting my post, I saw wsf's above me and I have to agree with wsf.  Why do we need to label it a 'challenge' to have teams like Hope and Wooster/Witt play one another?  Why can't we just schedule some home and home series between the top of the NCAC and the and the top of the MIAA?  As wsf touched on, Wooster has been playing teams like Adrian and Albion and Calvin has come to Wooster on a couple of occasions.  I just don't understand why Hope is rarely involved in playing any of the many teams available within the GL region from the NCAC or even the OAC...

[AlwaysHope]

I was stuck watching the game last night in a hotel room in Phoenix.  I wish I could have been there.  Even online, it was obvious the atmosphere at DeVos was beyond words.

Ever since that 1996 Final Four, when Hope fans and IWU fans started rooting for each other against Rowan (something about that has always stuck with me), I've wanted the Titans and Flying Dutchmen to meet.  We finally got the matchup last night, and it certainly did not disappoint. 

As an IWU fan, part of what makes the win last night so special was that it was against one of the top programs in NCAA Division III, and at the crown jewel of facilities in D3.  Congratulations on an incredible season, Flying Dutchmen fans - I'm really looking forward to the IWU/Hope matchups the next 3 seasons.  It's an honor to compete against Hope College.

Thanks for the compliments TQ.  If you felt the atmosphere was beyond words while looking at a computer screen, you should have been there.  Words like electric or magic don't do it justice either.  People were dancing in their seats during the overtimes, and I don't mean just the Dew Crew.

Another thing that added to the atmosphere was the battle of attrition.  Four Hope players and two IWU players had already fouled out, and another three players had four fouls.  A third overtime would have added to that number.  I was waiting for Toren and Whittenbach to come in!  But it also upset me to see the expression on David Krombeen's face when he picked up his fifth foul; all he could do was cheer on his teammates.  He had no control over whether or not he would ever wear the orange and blue for another game.

What could have been a key play was a moving screen set up by Hope's 6'10" center, Nate VA in the first overtime; as I recall, this was Nate's 5th foul.  The victim was Jordan Zimmer, who I was very concerned about when I saw him lying on the floor.  After a substantial delay he finally got up and went to the bench.  Was his game over for the night?  All he did was come back and score 12 of his 28 points in the final three minutes of the second overtime.  He deserves a lot of credit for that.

And others have mentioned it, but about the other Nate, Snuggerud.  All he did was score 40 points in 46 minutes, and commit only two fouls; he looked like he could have played forever.  He then became Hope's third player to reach 1,000 career points, which only took him three years.  I think Neil could not rest him more because not only his incredible game, but also because of Hope's foul situation.

While disappointed with the last night's outcome, remember it took until March before a D3 team could beat us, and even then it took two overtimes!

Thank you IWU!  And a very special thanks to four incredible Hope seniors who proudly wore the orange and blue for the last time.  You did us proud and we Alumni will soon be welcoming you into our "club."

Pure basketball at its finest, in front of a capacity crowd of 3,675.  How many days until the next season begin?

[sac]

It was a simple comment about Witt/Woo/Hope/Calvin, its risky for any team that expects to be among the top in its Region to play other teams among the top in their region.  Look around, unless its in the conference it just doesn't happen very often and certainly not year in and year out.

Calvin and Wooster took a risk playing all the way back in 2007 (hasn't happened since has it), and that loss to Wooster gave them #6 in-region.  Without winning the MIAA tournament that year, Calvin was on the bubble looking at most likely staying home.  Without that game they probably would have been in better shape.


...also Scotsfan, buy a map.

[Pat Coleman]

Somewhere inside Illinois Wesleyan's Shirk Center will sit the net from DeVos Fieldhouse's arch end basket.  I really didn't know what to think about IWU's request to cut down the net, I mean its round two and you just don't do that. 

I don't really like it, Scott, but nets have been cut down at every regional (and sectional) I have been at for the last 6-7 years.  As far as I know, it has become kind of standard thing...and the NCAA rep at the game helps coordinate it.

I know it happened at other games last night across the country.

Honestly, I haven't seen a net cut down on the first weekend anywhere I've been. Always in the second weekend but never in the first.

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. In a quick poll of our guys who were out and about, I learned that Scranton cut the nets down at William Paterson. Wheaton did not cut the nets down at UW-River Falls, Wittenberg did not at Transylvania and Cabrini did not at home.

[hoopdreams]

Something I always told my kids......."win or lose, act like you've been there before".

Maybe defeating the #1 team in the nation, on their home floor, in an amazing setting after an epic battle...warrants a little celebration?  I would not have cut them down myself but who am I to judge.  Did their fans cheer "this is our house"?  This would actually piss me off more