MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[realist]

realist:

I have to totally disagree with you on this one.

That one's going in my sig.

The "smart $" would then be to fire the current faculty and hire those who have the sense to support it.   People have to be honest here...there are simply "football haters" at Calvin as well as acknowledging the simple truth that there is no reason why football at any college cannot be successful and co-exist with the academic mission.  President Hutchins at the University of Chicago got it all wrong way back then in 1939 and that mis-guided philosophy continues today at some places, as evidenced by the Swarthemore debacle back in 2000 (even the University of Chicago, among the elite, respected and highest academic insitutions in the country no longer suscribes to that mis-guided philosophy and has had a successful DIII football program in its "new era", totally having academics and athletics co-existing in a highly successful atmosphere - the administration there in the past couple of decades, who have been very highly academic personnel, support the football program and have seen it as a very positive and "plus" for the world renowed university and among its peers/colleagues).  No one will ever convince me otherwise (that this can't work) because it simply is just not true - I know because I "lived it" as did many others themselves and who can testify to this. This type of "tug of war" between academic faculty and those (including students) who support athletics (and football specifically) goes all the way back to the beginnings of collegiate football (recall that famed, but ill-thought out comment that Cornell's President said back in the 1890's when he prevented Cornell's team from playing at the Univ. of Michigan..."I refuse to allow the [the students] to travel 400 miles west to merely aggitate a bag of wind"..? .  Seriously, though, the bottom line is that if Calvin's new administration and their trustees (and there have been trustees there who have been in the "non-football support" camp for a long time as most of us know) don't want to take the leadership role in this and make the decision and "buck" the so-called tradition there, then it obviously won't happen and most likely never will.  I'm sure that not all the faculty at Calvin are football haters (I know for a fact they are not), however, the greater number seem to be, as has been reported/shared by many here.  As I and others have said before, if Calvin doesn't add football now, I seriously doubt they ever will and that will be a disappointing aspect, however, of course, their perogative and rights.

I'm told that faculty vote was 30-12 against.

I've always felt that faculty are (ironically) the most undereducated group of college/university stakeholders when it comes to athletics.

You and I both know the process the football issue went through.  The question I have is why weren't the "pro" football people able to come up with convincing arguements, and numbers/statistics to prove their side of the issue?  If the faculty is as "undereducated" as you think they are why couldn't a group of "smart" jocks that really know athletics educate them?

hh1.  I don't think academics played much of a part in the discussion.  Much of what I heard was adding football would possibly expand the pool of potential students.  The issue came down to the cost of adding football, and than the cost of operating a program was going to be greater than the benefit (number of new students) would justify. 

[Roundball999]

Gee, I wonder how many of the academic departments are not self sufficient?  Or many clubs and activities.  Or fac/staff dining for that matter.  Just a thought.... 

Do we seriously believe that this was a strict stand-alone cost/benefit analysis by the faculty?    I don't believe they'd like the outcome if that metric were applied in a fair and balanced way to non-football matters.

[HopeConvert]

realist:

I have to totally disagree with you on this one.

That one's going in my sig.

The "smart $" would then be to fire the current faculty and hire those who have the sense to support it.   People have to be honest here...there are simply "football haters" at Calvin as well as acknowledging the simple truth that there is no reason why football at any college cannot be successful and co-exist with the academic mission.  President Hutchins at the University of Chicago got it all wrong way back then in 1939 and that mis-guided philosophy continues today at some places, as evidenced by the Swarthemore debacle back in 2000 (even the University of Chicago, among the elite, respected and highest academic insitutions in the country no longer suscribes to that mis-guided philosophy and has had a successful DIII football program in its "new era", totally having academics and athletics co-existing in a highly successful atmosphere - the administration there in the past couple of decades, who have been very highly academic personnel, support the football program and have seen it as a very positive and "plus" for the world renowed university and among its peers/colleagues).  No one will ever convince me otherwise (that this can't work) because it simply is just not true - I know because I "lived it" as did many others themselves and who can testify to this. This type of "tug of war" between academic faculty and those (including students) who support athletics (and football specifically) goes all the way back to the beginnings of collegiate football (recall that famed, but ill-thought out comment that Cornell's President said back in the 1890's when he prevented Cornell's team from playing at the Univ. of Michigan..."I refuse to allow the [the students] to travel 400 miles west to merely aggitate a bag of wind"..? .  Seriously, though, the bottom line is that if Calvin's new administration and their trustees (and there have been trustees there who have been in the "non-football support" camp for a long time as most of us know) don't want to take the leadership role in this and make the decision and "buck" the so-called tradition there, then it obviously won't happen and most likely never will.  I'm sure that not all the faculty at Calvin are football haters (I know for a fact they are not), however, the greater number seem to be, as has been reported/shared by many here.  As I and others have said before, if Calvin doesn't add football now, I seriously doubt they ever will and that will be a disappointing aspect, however, of course, their perogative and rights.

I'm told that faculty vote was 30-12 against.

I've always felt that faculty are (ironically) the most undereducated group of college/university stakeholders when it comes to athletics.

I don't know if that's true or not, but in any case most faculty weren't very athletic when they were in college.

The debate here centers in part on what things are intrinsic to the academic mission of a college (which is, after all, its raison d'etre and which things are extrinsic and, of the latter, which might advance the former, have no affect on the former, or detract from the former. As a stakeholder, the faculty have a unique and authoritative position in determining these questions since their sole responsibility is to advance the intrinsic reasons for the school's existence. And, of course, there is a distinction to be made between the acceptance of athletics in the abstract and the acceptance of particular sports which some might see to be contrary to the overall mission and identity of the school. Then, I would think, the question would center on whether violence is an intrinsic part of the game of football, and then relate that to the overall view Christians have concerning the propriety of violence.

OK: Fools keep you in business. I can see why you like it.

DCV: I agree. We should be at the DeVos tonight watching a great Hope/Wooster matchup. Sigh.

[Gregory Sager]

Re: The War

If we bring this discussion to the logical conclusion it's heading towards, we could probably just chant "where's your banners?" and leave it at that.

The CCIW has 43 D3 national championships (team sports).
The MIAA has 20 D3 national championships (team sports).

The CCIW has six D3 national championships in men's basketball.
The MIAA has two D3 national championships in men's basketball.

(The CCIW also won a men's basketball national championship in NCAA College Division, prior to its split into D2 and D3.)

Please understand that, although I'm an alumnus of a CCIW university, I have the utmost respect and affection for the MIAA. And I realize that you were just kidding with that remark, since the "where's your banners?" meme is a tried-and-true staple of the Rivalry. But I don't think that you really want to go there, not even in jest.

[almcguirejr]

Looks like Kevin Kooiker is officiating the IWU-Wooster game.

[KnightSlappy]

Looks like Kevin Kooiker is officiating the IWU-Wooster game.

Whichever one is the good school is totally screwed.

[wiz]

Looks like Kevin Kooiker is officiating the IWU-Wooster game.

Whichever one is the good school is totally screwed.

Classic!
Or as oldknight might say, makes the other refs look successful.

[almcguirejr]

IWU 69
Wooster 67

Final

Wooster player Josh Claytor with a chance to tie if he can make 2 foul shots with 2.2 seconds to go.  He was 5-6 from the line to that point in the game.  His first ft went 13 feet. 

[sflzman]

2011-12 MIAA Dunk Leaders

Team:
Hope 19
Trine 14
Calvin 10
Albion 9
Alma 8
Kalamazoo 5
Adrian 4
Olivet 0

Individual:
Tommy Erickson, Alma 8
Scott Rogers, Trine 8
Mike Smith, Albion 7
Nate Van Arendonk, Hope 7
Joe Prepolec, Kalamazoo 5
Tyler Dykstra, Calvin 4
Josh Holwerda, Hope 4
Tim Pearcy, Trine 4
Nate Van Eck, Calvin 3
Peter Bunn, Hope 2
Sean Gallant, Adrian 2
Ian Jackson, Trine 2
Tyler Kruis, Calvin 2
Colton Overway, Hope 2
Nate Snuggerud, Hope 2
Carter Elliott, Albion 1
Dennis Mason, Adrian 1
Adam Meier, Adrian 1
Logan Neil, Hope 1
Bryan Powell, Calvin 1(!)
Billy Seiler, Hope 1
Leon Wernette-Leff, Albion 1

Seven different Dutchmen threw one down this year, that might be a record.   

I think it'd be really cool to see an MIAA skills competition. Dunk contest, three point shootout, etc....

[wiz]

Dateline: Chicago
MIAA doing very well today.

[oldknight]

Austin Parks (Niles) has been mentioned as a possible Calvin recruit. Earlier this week he helped lead his team to victory over K-Central, the two-time defending Class A champs. Tonight he scored 25 in his team's win over Loy Norrix to win the district championship.

He plays football too.

[sac]

Austin Parks (Niles) has been mentioned as a possible Calvin recruit. Earlier this week he helped lead his team to victory over K-Central, the two-time defending Class A champs. Tonight he scored 25 in his team's win over Loy Norrix to win the district championship.

He plays football too.

I might recommend watching Niles in their Regional game on Monday at Portage Northern.  Unfortunately due to an upset over here in Lansing, it will be Okemos and not Lansing Eastern making that trip to square off against Niles.  Eastern was loaded with talented kids, including one or two who would have no doubt directly lined against Mr. Parks.   Okemos has Butler University bound guard Chris Harrison-Docks(seven 3's tonight), he's worth the watch and they're always a well coached team.

The other game is Grand Rapids Ottawa Hills vs Jackson.

[wiz]

Grace Bible goes to national championship game again today. Awesome!

[formerd3db]

realist:

No disrespect was intended toward you (or anyone) in regards to my post. I know you were addressing the "political" nature in general with rhetorical questions and potential options as to both sides of the issue (hence, my "funny face" logos as per usual protocol for that ).  And while I readily admit I do not know all the intracacies of the "politics" at Calvin, on the other hand, I do know some of it by virtue of having known a couple of faculty/trustees and alumni who have gone there. 

If your arguement then is more on the financial aspect as opposed to academics, then in reality, it comes down to the fact that Calvin simply doesn't want to spend the $.  And I don't buy the arguement that they can't afford it - there is plenty $ sources available to them and...if some small DIII colleges who have nowhere near the revenue sources that Calvin (or a Hope) does can do it (and there are plenty), then Calvin can also.  As to the benefit of the student enrollment. we all know that not every student is supportive of athletics and/or will receive "direct benefit" from that i.e. those who don't care about it.  Yet, if one uses that arguement, should not that same arguement then be applied to the other sports programs? Or what about the theatre and music programs for that matter?   Does every student receive benefit from those non-sport programs; does every student benefit from Calvin's big basketball program, Calvin's swimming program, the baseball program (and yes, let's include hockey and now lacrosse), etc., etc.? The answer to that is obvious.  So again, call me a biased football supporter, however, I am not convinced.  We all know that every college has some underlying reason for adding sports programs (and let's leave the Title IX out of it because that certainly is a required part of the equation) - example of Adrian adding all the hockey teams and lacrosse which boosted their enrollement to now healthy sustainable totals i.e. of where they want to be.  Also, do you really think that every faculty member at Hope is in favor of the athletic programs (there will always be some dissentors) or that all were in favor of having the hockey program and adding lacrosse?  Those programs have overtime proved their value to the college in many ways, although again, those sports are not supported by all the students and faculty.  I can tell you that at the recent MIAA Tournament Final Championship game last week, while DeVos was a capacity, there was a huge crowd in attendance at the Hope College hockey game across town at the very same time.  But,...I digress.

At any rate,  I truly believe (again from what I know of the situation and, of course, again throwing in my own personal experiences and opinion here as I have and as has everyone else) that it all comes down to there are simply some people at Calvin who don't want football - period.  They'll fight it to the end and always.  Regardless, again, my post was not directed personally at you (or anyone else) and, again, we are all just discussing both sides of the issue here. I'm just saying that for me, I'll never understand those who don't want football at Calvin nor the reasons why and, IMO, the arguements against it do not stand up to those which support it.  Yet, that is irrelevent because, obviously, my opinion doesn't count in the final decision anyway.


P.S. Excellent discussion everyone and thanks for sharing your opinions.       

[NCF]

realist:

No disrespect was intended toward you (or anyone) in regards to my post. I know you were addressing the "political" nature in general with rhetorical questions and potential options as to both sides of the issue (hence, my "funny face" logos as per usual protocol for that ).  And while I readily admit I do not know all the intracacies of the "politics" at Calvin, on the other hand, I do know some of it by virtue of having known a couple of faculty/trustees and alumni who have gone there. 

If your arguement then is more on the financial aspect as opposed to academics, then in reality, it comes down to the fact that Calvin simply doesn't want to spend the $.  And I don't buy the arguement that they can't afford it - there is plenty $ sources available to them and...if some small DIII colleges who have nowhere near the revenue sources that Calvin (or a Hope) does can do it (and there are plenty), then Calvin can also.  As to the benefit of the student enrollment. we all know that not every student is supportive of athletics and/or will receive "direct benefit" from that i.e. those who don't care about it.  Yet, if one uses that arguement, should not that same arguement then be applied to the other sports programs? Or what about the theatre and music programs for that matter?   Does every student receive benefit from those non-sport programs; does every student benefit from Calvin's big basketball program, Calvin's swimming program, the baseball program (and yes, let's include hockey and now lacrosse), etc., etc.? The answer to that is obvious.  So again, call me a biased football supporter, however, I am not convinced.  We all know that every college has some underlying reason for adding sports programs (and let's leave the Title IX out of it because that certainly is a required part of the equation) - example of Adrian adding all the hockey teams and lacrosse which boosted their enrollement to now healthy sustainable totals i.e. of where they want to be.  Also, do you really think that every faculty member at Hope is in favor of the athletic programs (there will always be some dissentors) or that all were in favor of having the hockey program and adding lacrosse?  Those programs have overtime proved their value to the college in many ways, although again, those sports are not supported by all the students and faculty.  I can tell you that at the recent MIAA Tournament Final Championship game last week, while DeVos was a capacity, there was a huge crowd in attendance at the Hope College hockey game across town at the very same time.  But,...I digress.

At any rate,  I truly believe (again from what I know of the situation and, of course, again throwing in my own personal experiences and opinion here as I have and as has everyone else) that it all comes down to there are simply some people at Calvin who don't want football - period.  They'll fight it to the end and always.  Regardless, again, my post was not directed personally at you (or anyone else) and, again, we are all just discussing both sides of the issue here. I'm just saying that for me, I'll never understand those who don't want football at Calvin nor the reasons why and, IMO, the arguements against it do not stand up to those which support it.  Yet, that is irrelevent because, obviously, my opinion doesn't count in the final decision anyway.


P.S. Excellent discussion everyone and thanks for sharing your opinions.     

Former-you could publish these posts of yours! LOL