MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[GoKnights68]

If you are comparing D3 resumes, KVS should be compared with.....

Grey Giovanne, Augustana
Bosko Djurickovic, Carthage
Steve Moore, Wooster
Bill Brown, Wittenberg
Pat Miller, Whitewater
Mike Moran, John Carroll

All guys who have coached at programs for a minimum of 10 years during KVS' tenure at Calvin, all with varying degrees of success within their conference and nationally.

Thanks! These are the types of names I want. Hopefully I can do some leg work (I'll take help) and compile overall records, league records, tourney appearances, and tourney records for the above (plus others if you got them).

With that, in each person's argument, you'll probably get some "selective history"...which naturally is usually the case.   Will we want to talk about last 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, ect.?    Just sayin...

And outside of Wittenberg/Wooster, I don't think each of those programs has a rival as close to as important as Calvin does.

[KnightSlappy]

I guess I just have higher expectations than a computer ranking system then. Maybe we should start using the BCS system for college basketball since it has a better idea of talent level than human cognitive ability.

Also FWIW, the "computer rankings" of the BCS formula would have given us an LSU-Oklahoma State title game in football. It was the USA Today Poll and Harris Poll that kicked out Oklahoma St. for Alabama. So if the SEC vs. SEC rematch bothered you, don't blame the computers.

[sac]

If you are comparing D3 resumes, KVS should be compared with.....

Grey Giovanne, Augustana
Bosko Djurickovic, Carthage
Steve Moore, Wooster
Bill Brown, Wittenberg
Pat Miller, Whitewater
Mike Moran, John Carroll

All guys who have coached at programs for a minimum of 10 years during KVS' tenure at Calvin, all with varying degrees of success within their conference and nationally.

Thanks! These are the types of names I want. Hopefully I can do some leg work (I'll take help) and compile overall records, league records, tourney appearances, and tourney records for the above (plus others if you got them).

The comparison with Giovanne and Djurickovic probably won't say much because those two coach in a significantly more difficult conference.  But along with Miller it will probably show that even the best coaches at top programs have years where things don't go to plan  (ie Augustana this year).

Comparisons to Brown, Moran and Moore should be about equal as many times during KVS' tenure the MIAA was actually the better conference than the NCAC and OAC, particularly earlier in this past decade.

[goodknight]

FWIW, Shaka Smart has compiled a .704 winning percentage in three years in the CAA (no league titles).

Yeah, there might not be any league titles, but his teams have really helped me in my basketball pools!!   

With peaking, timing is everything!

That's what she said.

With piquing, timing is everything.

But GK already knew that.

Which is why I'm only peeking -- until the feathers settle down.

[GoKnights68]

and I still say the most telling stat about Calvin's last 7 years (actually 10 years) is zero MVP's.  Calvin has lacked that one player that could take a team from good to great.  Frequently that is all it has taken to produce a difference of finishing 1st or 2nd in the MIAA and having a deeper NCAA run.

Aultman was that type of guy in 2005, but Travis DePree just had a better year to get the MVP.

It is something that doesn't get pointed out as much as it should, sac, I agree.  People all assumed Veldhouse would rack up 1 or 2 mvps but never really got even close enough where someone could make a good argument for him to be MVP.  Hope has had the fortune of having some great leaders like Cramer, Vanderheide, Reimink, Bowser, and Krombeen.   ...With all this, I know it seems Calvin fans don't give the other teams that beat them enough credit (besides just Hope), but we've seen talented Calvin teams beat National Title teams over the years like Washington U and Cornerstone in the beginning of the year only to flop in the conference.

[sac]

Also something that's rarely brought up is the acknowledgment that Hope is going through one of its most successful stretches in its very long history.  Over the past 7 seasons Hope is 174-37, a winning clip of .824     I highly doubt we can find a 7 year stretch with a better win percentage from the Dutchmen.  Hope was literally one win or different result away in 3 of those MIAA seasons(06, 09, 10) from winning 7 MIAA Regular season Championship in a row.  Total points of under 10, and in two of those seasons one shot (one that went in, one didn't) was the difference for Hope finishing 1st or 2nd.

No doubt this has impacted Calvin's success or perceived success during this same period.

[Knight2Day]

and I still say the most telling stat about Calvin's last 7 years (actually 10 years) is zero MVP's.  Calvin has lacked that one player that could take a team from good to great.  Frequently that is all it has taken to produce a difference of finishing 1st or 2nd in the MIAA and having a deeper NCAA run.

Aultman was that type of guy in 2005, but Travis DePree just had a better year to get the MVP.

It is something that doesn't get pointed out as much as it should, sac, I agree.  People all assumed Veldhouse would rack up 1 or 2 mvps but never really got even close enough where someone could make a good argument for him to be MVP.  Hope has had the fortune of having some great leaders like Cramer, Vanderheide, Reimink, Bowser, and Krombeen.   ...With all this, I know it seems Calvin fans don't give the other teams that beat them enough credit (besides just Hope), but we've seen talented Calvin teams beat National Title teams over the years like Washington U and Cornerstone in the beginning of the year only to flop in the conference.

I would argue that one of the biggest problems in regards to lack of MIAA MVP's for Calvin is that there isn't a culture of player development. The assistants don't know the game, KVS won't ever change let alone communicate with players, and the one guy who did know the game and played at a high level HE FIRED!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

As an outside who obviously covers Division III on the whole... I haven't had the MIAA in my discussions or thoughts when talking top conferences in the country in the last few years. Those would go to ones like UAA, ODAC, NESCAC, WIAC, CCIW. I would even say conferences like the OAC and NCAC may be better from top to bottom then the MIAA.

The MIAA would be an average to slightly above average conference in my mind. They don't have the depth they used to have, it isn't that competitive from night to night and team to team... it has slipped. I have appreciated what the conference has brought to the table over the years, but when the only game I concentrate on in the conference schedule is Hope vs. Calvin because of the rivalry (when I used to focus on games involving Albion, Trine, etc.)... then the conference is down a bit.

As for a computer system picking the at-large bids... no way. No computer system is going to be able to measure intangiables in Division III, especially when it is far more regionally based then say the D1 RPI system. Sure... we might go to a system that allows all games to count, but there will still be regionally based decisions before at-large teams are selected. You are opening up a hornet's nest of problems when one region gets too many teams based on a computer when some of those teams probably won't deserve it. Schools in weak conferences (i.e. Cabrini) showed that they were better than their numbers indicated... which is why having a human element in the decisions is key.

[ziggy]

I would argue that one of the biggest problems in regards to lack of MIAA MVP's for Calvin is that there isn't a culture of player development. The assistants don't know the game, KVS won't ever change let alone communicate with players, and the one guy who did know the game and played at a high level HE FIRED!

I would agree that Hope has done a better job than Calvin in the player development department.

[Knight2Day]

I would argue that one of the biggest problems in regards to lack of MIAA MVP's for Calvin is that there isn't a culture of player development. The assistants don't know the game, KVS won't ever change let alone communicate with players, and the one guy who did know the game and played at a high level HE FIRED!

I would agree that Hope has done a better job than Calvin in the player development department.

As would I. I have to say that even if you look at the progression physical attributes of Hope players from their freshmen to senior year, they seem to have a much better weight program, individuals who come to work with players, and progression of athleticism (just watch the team warm up, dunk city). Being a Calvin fan, alum, and former player, it kills me to see this and see Calvin lacking so much in this area.

[Gregory Sager]

I'd be interested in hearing a list of the top established D3 coaching names out there and comparing their resumes.

As far as 'established' goes, perhaps coaches that have been in their current spot for more than five years? What do you all think?

Anyone have names for me?

How about we compare him to such names as Bobby Knight, Lloyd Carr, Bobby Bowden, and now recently Bruce Weber? Coaches who were successful and then lost the "choice" to stay or go.

Bosko Djurickovic at NPU.

[Gregory Sager]

I'd be interested in hearing a list of the top established D3 coaching names out there and comparing their resumes.

As far as 'established' goes, perhaps coaches that have been in their current spot for more than five years? What do you all think?

Anyone have names for me?

How about we compare him to such names as Bobby Knight, Lloyd Carr, Bobby Bowden, and now recently Bruce Weber? Coaches who were successful and then lost the "choice" to stay or go. Anyone have feedback when it is no longer the coaches "choice"? And I would say that Bruce Weber is a fair comparison as he was "successful" in the Big Ten and just recently had a bad streak of about 6 years....

Bruce Weber's problem was that he eventually ran out of Bill Self's players. He didn't win a national championship in year four or take completely different group of players to the final four five years later.

Also played in a much tougher conference and competed with comparatively less talent than KVS does at the MIAA/D3

As far as using "comparatively less talent" as an excuse for a coach's shortcomings is concerned, let me ask you: Who do you think is responsible for getting the talent into the program in the first place?

I'm continually amazed that so many fans of college sports think of recruiting as something separate from coaching. Recruiting is coaching. In fact, it's the biggest aspect of a coach's job, regardless of whether he's the one making the initial contacts and doing the bird-dogging in high school gyms or it's done by an assistant or assistants that he hired and who answer(s) to him.

[Gregory Sager]

If you are comparing D3 resumes, KVS should be compared with.....

Grey Giovanne, Augustana
Bosko Djurickovic, Carthage
Steve Moore, Wooster
Bill Brown, Wittenberg
Pat Miller, Whitewater
Mike Moran, John Carroll

All guys who have coached at programs for a minimum of 10 years during KVS' tenure at Calvin, all with varying degrees of success within their conference and nationally.

I would add to that list:

Glenn Robinson, F&M
Dave Macedo, Virginia Wesleyan
Page Moir, Roanoke
Tom Palombo, Guilford
David Hixon, Amherst
Brian Meehan, Brandeis
Mike Neer, Rochester/Hobart
Mark Edwards, Washington MO
Joe Nesci, New York
Mike McGrath, Chicago
Mark Hanson, Gustavus Adolphus
Jim Smith, St. John's
Ted Fiore, Montclair State
Ted Van Dellen, UW-Oshkosh
Damon Goodwin, Capital
Dick Reynolds, Otterbein
Gerry Matthews, Richard Stockton
Chuck McBreen, Ramapo
Jose Rebimbas, William Paterson
Joe Cassidy, Rowan

All of them are coaches at above-average or better conferences (which is what the MIAA is -- an above-average conference, not a "junk conference") who have been at their schools ten years or longer (Neer moved from Rochester to Hobart last year) and who have had a significant measure of success.

[wiz]

Thankfully, D3 doesn't utilize the services of the fray for the national anthem.

[gohope]

Thankfully, D3 doesn't utilize the services of the fray for the national anthem.

I think that's what threw the Jayhawks off their game....