MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[GoKnights68]

Hold up a sec, partner. Let's win the MIAA first AND win the conference tourney.  Hope had some pretty decent size last year + one of the best guards in D3 + a roster with some fairly significant experience+ a great coach.....and look where that got them.  A loss.....the first weekend.....at home

Hold up two seconds!  What about Adrian?  If you were to pick a favorite to win the MIAA next year who would it be?  You have to include Adrian in that conversation!

I equate what happened to Calvin this year as nearly identical to what happened to Hope in 2005.  Hope lost its starting PG and had a string of suspensions and injuries that slowed their progress.  They never had the team they thought they would all season and neither did '12 Calvin.  That Hope team ended up 15-12, 10-4(3rd, 4 losses to 4 different MIAA teams) but at one point was 7-10.  They finished the year winning 8 of 9 before meekly surrendering their last game of the year and mercifully ending a tough season.

That team returned pretty much everyone the following year and with the additions of 3 or 4 really good players, Hope went 28-3 (and yet didn't win the league).

The question for Calvin will be can they make that kind of jump relying on just the players returning or will they be better served to add some new faces to give the team a jump start in attitude and desire.  Hope made some very tough roster decisions leading into 2006, maybe Calvin needs to do the same.  Going from 13-13 to something resembling cutting down nets in Virginia is a pretty big jump for even the best programs, massively tall or not.

I wonder if Calvin will put a "III" on the back of their warm-up jerseys next season like Hope did that year?   


....but I do see some of the comparisons. I agree.

[knightvision]

Quote from a basketball mind I respect very much "Next year Calvin will have enough talent to win the national championship. Look at their front line, their starting lineup could be taller than U of M's if they decided to play it that way."

Isn't there a punch line impending about all that talent squandered? 

K2D, hopefully you consulted a different dictionary than the one I did a few days back when deciding whether to use "pending" or "impending" on this board. Rather than thinking of it as talent squandered, I'm more inclined to view the quote as premature speculation

[Knight2Day]

Quote from a basketball mind I respect very much "Next year Calvin will have enough talent to win the national championship. Look at their front line, their starting lineup could be taller than U of M's if they decided to play it that way."

Isn't there a punch line impending about all that talent squandered? 

K2D, hopefully you consulted a different dictionary than the one I did a few days back when deciding whether to use "pending" or "impending" on this board. Rather than thinking of it as talent squandered, I'm more inclined to view the quote as premature speculation

All I'm saying is that the excuses next year will be somewhere in the neighborhood of extremely minute to none. Barring the entire starting lineup tearing ACL's and the othe guys deciding to pull a Goshen.

[sflzman]

I wonder if olivet will be pulling the guys out of Buena Vista the next few years with their new coach. Buena Vista has potential state championship talent coming through and that might be helpful since we know there is a little connection to that school now

[oldknight]

Hold up a sec, partner. Let's win the MIAA first AND win the conference tourney.  Hope had some pretty decent size last year + one of the best guards in D3 + a roster with some fairly significant experience+ a great coach.....and look where that got them.  A loss.....the first weekend.....at home

Now, the quote wasn't that they WILL win it, just that they have an amazing amount of talent that will be on that team...also, Hope definitely had the talent to win it all this year, deserved the #1 ranking, they were just cursed with a weak conference that didn't prepare them for the NCAA's

Just so I'm clear, does this mean the argument du jour is "KVS forgot how to coach"? Because this takes either the "can't recruit" or "can't develop players" argument off the table.

That's assuming some of us think ever knew how I have to say, it's pretty easy to recruit when you have one of the top 2 facilities in division 3 (the luster is wearing off just playing IN a nice facility and recruits are going to notice) and you aren't saddled with teaching classes but can spend all day every day devoted to basketball.

Hogwash. There's no such thing as a private school for which "it's pretty easy to recruit" in D3. There are no athletic scholarships at this level, and, therefore, to attend an institution such as Calvin -- where the sticker price for a year of schooling is now, what, about $35,000 a year? -- requires a major financial commitment on the part of a student (or, more often, the student's family) that is truly daunting. Add in the fact that there are schools competing for the same players who are quite a bit cheaper than Calvin (either because they have a lower base tuition and room & board than does Calvin, or because they offer basketball scholarships that can defray part or all of the cost), plus the fact that Calvin's admissions standards prevent it from recruiting anybody and everybody whom the coach would like to see wearing a maroon & gold uni, and you're looking at a difficulty curve in recruiting that gets steeper and steeper.

There may have been an assumption in the past that kids who attend western Michigan CRC high schools -- including kids who attend western Michigan CRC high schools who are very good at the sport of basketball -- would naturally pick either Calvin or Hope as a matter of course. But, as many of the veteran posters of this room have attested, the days of assuming such automatic recruiting from those feeder high schools are long gone. There's too many outside competitors now who offer a high level of basketball and a cheaper education, not to mention the cachet of scholarship status.

A nice, big, new arena is certainly a solid plus, but it's hardly a key selling point. In the eyes of the typical prospect, the size and amenities of a gym pale in comparison to such matters as a school's cost, competitive level, and program success. Also, I defy you to find any head coach in D3 whose recruiting is hampered by the requirement to teach classes. Recruiting is the most essential task of coaching. If you aren't out there recruiting, you aren't winning. Every coach who values his or her job makes time to do as much recruiting as is necessary to succeed. That doesn't mean that he or she will be good at it; it means that he or she is fulfilling the job requirement.

Anybody who thinks that KVS merely has to open the door to the gym and let high school hoopers flock to the program really isn't paying attention to the larger forces at work here, in particular the enrollment trends that people such as sac and formerd3db have posted about so often and the recruiting evidence at hand that SBell posts every spring.

I agree with Greg's comments and will add another factor I believe hurts D3 schools like Calvin and Hope--the disparity in recruiting rules that govern NAIA and NCAA institutions. Or maybe I should say the apparent absence of recruiting rules in NAIA. I know a high school athlete who has been recruited and his father described the NAIA as "the wild west of recruiting" because--as best he can tell--there are no rules in NAIA. While the NCAA has strict limitations on contact with high school athletes, including those on when and how a high school athlete can be approached, NAIA essentially has none. An NAIA coach can make frequent contact and do things for high school kids that would give a D3 coach NCAA jail time. This can leave high schoolers with the false impression that the D3 coach just isn't as interested in him as the NAIA coach who is hot on the trail.

[Happy Calvin Guy]

I agree with Greg's comments and will add another factor I believe hurts D3 schools like Calvin and Hope--the disparity in recruiting rules that govern NAIA and NCAA institutions. Or maybe I should say the apparent absence of recruiting rules in NAIA. I know a high school athlete who has been recruited and his father described the NAIA as "the wild west of recruiting" because--as best he can tell--there are no rules in NAIA. While the NCAA has strict limitations on contact with high school athletes, including those on when and how a high school athlete can be approached, NAIA essentially has none. An NAIA coach can make frequent contact and do things for high school kids that would give a D3 coach NCAA jail time. This can leave high schoolers with the false impression that the D3 coach just isn't as interested in him as the NAIA coach who is hot on the trail.

Great insight OK.  Other than Davenport, does anyone know if any of the local NAIA schools are considering NCAA D2 (or other classification) status?  I would guess that, of the NAIA schools, Cornerstone is probably the biggest local direct competitor for the kind of student-athletes that would otherwise consider Hope or Calvin.  If they were to go D2, there is still the scholarship hurdle to compete with, but at least everyone would be on even footing regarding the recruiting standards that OK is talking about.

[knightvision]

Quote from a basketball mind I respect very much "Next year Calvin will have enough talent to win the national championship. Look at their front line, their starting lineup could be taller than U of M's if they decided to play it that way."

Isn't there a punch line impending about all that talent squandered? 

K2D, hopefully you consulted a different dictionary than the one I did a few days back when deciding whether to use "pending" or "impending" on this board. Rather than thinking of it as talent squandered, I'm more inclined to view the quote as premature speculation

All I'm saying is that the excuses next year will be somewhere in the neighborhood of extremely minute to none. Barring the entire starting lineup tearing ACL's and the othe guys deciding to pull a Goshen.

Sorry, yet another rookie mistake.  My encouragement for selecting proper terms was intended for goodknight, not you.

With regard to the opinion that Calvin has enough talent to win it all, that sounds like something a Calvin fan who may not be KVS's staunchest supporter might say to set him up for underachieving if they do anything but win it all.  I'm cautiously optimistic that they will be significantly improved....but it will be fascinating to see what kind of rotation develops.  There a lot of guys returning who I suspect all expect to play a fair amount--and that doesn't include any freshman in the mix. 

Even with injuries, Calvin was tall last year.  I'd prefer tall and strong and athletic--here's hoping their bigs are becoming more intimately familiar with the weight room and some speed/agility work.   

[goodknight]

Knightvision:

You may be able to see well in the dark.

Let me shed a little light:

im·pend·ing (adjective):
1. about to happen; imminent: their impending marriage.


pend·ing (preposition)
1.while awaiting; until: pending his return.
2.in the period before the decision or conclusion of; during: pending the negotiations.
(adjective):
3.remaining undecided; awaiting decision or settlement; unfinished: pending business; pending questions; pending litigation.
4.about to take place; impending.

[knightvision]

Knightvision:

You may be able to see well in the dark.

Let me shed a little light:

im·pend·ing (adjective):
1. about to happen; imminent: their impending marriage.


pend·ing (preposition)
1.while awaiting; until: pending his return.
2.in the period before the decision or conclusion of; during: pending the negotiations.
(adjective):
3.remaining undecided; awaiting decision or settlement; unfinished: pending business; pending questions; pending litigation.
4.about to take place; impending.

goodknight, I can assure you my vision is fine...Please see post 34061 on page 2271--I assumed you had seen this earlier exchange and had with a bit of humor used the word impending.

For what it's worth, I like my dictionary better than yours....and have no pending plans to buy a new one 

[goodknight]

Knightvision:

You may be able to see well in the dark.

Let me shed a little light:

im·pend·ing (adjective):
1. about to happen; imminent: their impending marriage.


pend·ing (preposition)
1.while awaiting; until: pending his return.
2.in the period before the decision or conclusion of; during: pending the negotiations.
(adjective):
3.remaining undecided; awaiting decision or settlement; unfinished: pending business; pending questions; pending litigation.
4.about to take place; impending.

goodknight, I can assure you my vision is fine...Please see post 34061 on page 2271--I assumed you had seen this earlier exchange and had with a bit of humor used the word impending.

For what it's worth, I like my dictionary better than yours....and have no pending plans to buy a new one 

I try to keep humor out of everything I do.   

Remember, I went to Calvin -- no frats, no football, no fun.   (Although, I understand there is an impending vote that could introduce football.) 

Thanks for your clarification, Knightvision.  Indeed, I missed that exchange last week.  I was on the road in Iowa, spending a week one night in FDF's home county. The internet hasn't arrived there yet, although I'm told that it might, depending or impending or simply pending upon something or other or nothing at all.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Knightvision:

You may be able to see well in the dark.

Let me shed a little light:

im·pend·ing (adjective):
1. about to happen; imminent: their impending marriage.


pend·ing (preposition)
1.while awaiting; until: pending his return.
2.in the period before the decision or conclusion of; during: pending the negotiations.
(adjective):
3.remaining undecided; awaiting decision or settlement; unfinished: pending business; pending questions; pending litigation.
4.about to take place; impending.

goodknight, I can assure you my vision is fine...Please see post 34061 on page 2271--I assumed you had seen this earlier exchange and had with a bit of humor used the word impending.

For what it's worth, I like my dictionary better than yours....and have no pending plans to buy a new one 

I try to keep humor out of everything I do.   

Remember, I went to Calvin -- no frats, no football, no fun.   (Although, I understand there is an impending vote that could introduce football.) 

Thanks for your clarification, Knightvision.  Indeed, I missed that exchange last week.  I was on the road in Iowa, spending a week one night in FDF's home county. The internet hasn't arrived there yet, although I'm told that it might, depending or impending or simply pending upon something or other or nothing at all.

There is a filter on the state border that detects any Dordt Warts (or near relatives) and instantly removes them from the Hawkeye matrix.

Seriously dude - the rest areas in Iowa have free wireless.  It's a pretty progressive place, and this time of year (baseball season) "maybe this is heaven"  RK   

[wiz]

Knightvision:

You may be able to see well in the dark.

Let me shed a little light:

im·pend·ing (adjective):
1. about to happen; imminent: their impending marriage.


pend·ing (preposition)
1.while awaiting; until: pending his return.
2.in the period before the decision or conclusion of; during: pending the negotiations.
(adjective):
3.remaining undecided; awaiting decision or settlement; unfinished: pending business; pending questions; pending litigation.
4.about to take place; impending.

goodknight, I can assure you my vision is fine...Please see post 34061 on page 2271--I assumed you had seen this earlier exchange and had with a bit of humor used the word impending.

For what it's worth, I like my dictionary better than yours....and have no pending plans to buy a new one 

I try to keep humor out of everything I do.   

Remember, I went to Calvin -- no frats, no football, no fun.   (Although, I understand there is an impending vote that could introduce football.) 

Thanks for your clarification, Knightvision.  Indeed, I missed that exchange last week.  I was on the road in Iowa, spending a week one night in FDF's home county. The internet hasn't arrived there yet, although I'm told that it might, depending or impending or simply pending upon something or other or nothing at all.

Well, as they say here at the home, "depends".

[sac]

I wonder if olivet will be pulling the guys out of Buena Vista the next few years with their new coach. Buena Vista has potential state championship talent coming through and that might be helpful since we know there is a little connection to that school now

Other than an Alma player or two from Swan Valley or Heritage HS's I can't think of too many kids from the immediate Saginaw area that end up in the MIAA.  Michael Thomas (Albion/Saginaw aka The HIGH) was about it that I can remember.

While the Flint/Saginaw corridor is loaded with good basketball players, not to many of them are looking to pay 30,000+ grand to play basketball.  Right now there are only 3 on MIAA rosters  Dakotah Ellis-Birch Run, Lee Caldwell-Flint Intenational, Evan Levine-The Valley, Flint

SVSU's current roster has 4 Saginaw kids, one from Buena Vista.

[sac]

There is a filter on the state border that detects any Dordt Warts (or near relatives) and instantly removes them from the Hawkeye matrix.

Seriously dude - the rest areas in Iowa have free wireless.  It's a pretty progressive place, and this time of year (baseball season) "maybe this is heaven"  RK   

sure, sure.  They even have a website domain, although its for sale.  http://iowacorn.com/

[realist]

I wonder if olivet will be pulling the guys out of Buena Vista the next few years with their new coach. Buena Vista has potential state championship talent coming through and that might be helpful since we know there is a little connection to that school now

Other than an Alma player or two from Swan Valley or Heritage HS's I can't think of too many kids from the immediate Saginaw area that end up in the MIAA.  Michael Thomas (Albion/Saginaw aka The HIGH) was about it that I can remember.

While the Flint/Saginaw corridor is loaded with good basketball players, not to many of them are looking to pay 30,000+ grand to play basketball.  Right now there are only 3 on MIAA rosters  Dakotah Ellis-Birch Run, Lee Caldwell-Flint Intenational, Evan Levine-The Valley, Flint

SVSU's current roster has 4 Saginaw kids, one from Buena Vista.

You haven't forgotten the Meckes boys from Saginaw Valley Lutheran already have you?