MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

Players playing over 32+ minutes for a whole season is somewhat of a false fantasy.  It just really doesn't happen.  In the last 6 years from the whole league 5, 2, 1, 4, 3 and 5.  None of those  players won an MIAA Championship or even came close.  And all of those would have played on teams most would say are just not very deep.

Individual games, sure it happens but not over the course of an entire season.

[wiz]

Carthage was down 2 men from injuries sustained in the Hope game 6-7 Steve Jaskulske and 6-5 Marlon Senior.  That could explain Carthage's minutes a little.  They aren't a very deep team without those guys.

That is no doubt true but no Calvin starter played more than 26 minutes in either game this weekend. In the Hope/Wheaton game four Thunder players logged 40, 37, 35 and 33 minutes. I'm not suggesting Calvin starters put in that kind of PT but it seems to me your best players need to be putting in 30 minutes on a regular basis and that hasn't been happening. Maybe Calvin will start doing that once the conference season begins.

My advice is do not hold your breath waiting for any Calvin starter to see pt. over 31 or 32 in any game.  31-32 happens from time to time, but seldom more than that.
A quick check of the last 5 years shows the Calvin player with the highest mpg to be:
11-12 Snikkers    27.2
10-11 Rodts        27.8
9--10 Mantel       28.4
8-9    Smith        27.0
7-8    Veldhouse  28.6
The die is cast.  10 man rotation, and seldom will any player see more than 30-32 minutes.
Look at 4 or 5 years of box scores.

Welcome back, realist. Nothing like a couple Calvin losses to get the juices flowing again, eh?

[sflzman]

Players playing over 32+ minutes for a whole season is somewhat of a false fantasy.  It just really doesn't happen.  In the last 6 years from the whole league 5, 2, 1, 4, 3 and 5.  None of those  players won an MIAA Championship or even came close.  And all of those would have played on teams most would say are just not very deep.

Individual games, sure it happens but not over the course of an entire season.

To expand on that this this year there is only two that are averaging 32+ and they both wear a Kalamazoo uniform.  That qualifies them as a player that won't come close to an MIAA championship I think it's safe to say...

[neilrocks]

Board opinion please --- I have noticed an early season trend with Hope to lose the Free Throw and foul battle this year.  Do Hope posters see this also and see it as a potential problem?

NCC - 24 fouls - 20-27 FT - No one fouls out
Hope - 25 fouls - 16-25 FT - One foul out

Cornerstone - 13 fouls - 24-30 FT - No one fouls out
Hope - 20 fouls - 12-13 FT - One foul out

AQ - 17 fouls - 20-21 FT - No one fouls out
Hope - 19 fouls - 14-21 FT - No one fouls out

Carthage - 24 fouls - 19-24 FT - One fouls out
Hope - 23 fouls - 14-23 FT - No one fouls out

Wheaton - 21 fouls - 27-31 FT - One fouls out
Hope 24 fouls - 14-22 FT - One fouls out

Opp - 99 Total Fouls
Hope - 108 Total Fouls

Opp 110-133 FT or 82.7%
Hope 70-104 or 67.3%

40 points add't for opponents from FT line.  And the old "Bobby Knight Indiana" stat (unfortunately opposite for Hope), attempt FT's (104 Hope) versus what your opponent's make (110).

I think this is a scary stat for Hope going forward, if not corrected.

[realist]

Players playing over 32+ minutes for a whole season is somewhat of a false fantasy.  It just really doesn't happen.   In the last 6 years from the whole league 5, 2, 1, 4, 3 and 5.  None of those  players won an MIAA Championship or even came close.  And all of those would have played on teams most would say are just not very deep.

Individual games, sure it happens but not over the course of an entire season.

Carthage College 2010-2011:
Steve D.    37.4 mpg
M. Kelly     32.0 mpg
M. Thompson 32.0 mpg.

Perhaps in the MIAA we don't see players average 30+ mpg for a season, but that does not mean that it is a fantasy.  I did not have to look either long or hard to find a team with multiple players over 32 mpg for a season.

[sac]

Players playing over 32+ minutes for a whole season is somewhat of a false fantasy.  It just really doesn't happen.  In the last 6 years from the whole league 5, 2, 1, 4, 3 and 5.  None of those  players won an MIAA Championship or even came close.  And all of those would have played on teams most would say are just not very deep.

Individual games, sure it happens but not over the course of an entire season.

Carthage College 2010-2011:
Steve D.    37.4 mpg
M. Keyy     32.0 mpg
M. Thompson 32.0 mpg.

Perhaps in the MIAA we don't see players average 30+ mpg for a season, but that does not mean that it is a fantasy.  I did not have to look either long or hard to find a team with multiple players over 32 mpg for a season.

Michigan had 3 guys last year had 32+, and all year they talked about how Michigan had no depth and they weren't deep.  They didn't log 32 minutes because they were good, they logged 32 because they had to.

It just really doesn't happen much and when it does its not necessarily a great sign.

[sac]

Opp 110-133 FT or 82.7%
Hope 70-104 or 67.3%

40 points add't for opponents from FT line.  And the old "Bobby Knight Indiana" stat (unfortunately opposite for Hope), attempt FT's (104 Hope) versus what your opponent's make (110).

I think this is a scary stat for Hope going forward, if not corrected.

Take away about 16 opponent attempts away for when Hope was fouling late while they were trailing in their 3 losses and I don't think this is as big of an advantage or problem.  When you play good teams and lose you typically have more fouls and fewer ft's.


I will say Hope's not going to be much better or worse than avg at the FT line this year, that just won't improve much.

[realist]

UWW had 2 players average over 30 mpg for the season last year
Imagine what they might have done if they only had some depth.

[sac]

UWWW had 2 players average over 30 mpg for the season last year
Imagine what they might have done if they only had some depth.

Well that settles it.

[pointlem]

I will say Hope's not going to be much better or worse than avg at the FT line this year, that just won't improve much.

Sac, I'd wager that, with the return of Steve Wittenbach and Grant Neil, Hope may improve a bit in both 3-point and free throw shooting. 

I'll also wager that Hope's "defense" against opponents' free throws will also improve . . . or, as KnightSlappy would surely expect, opponents' free throw shooting will regress to their average.

[neilrocks]

Opp 110-133 FT or 82.7%
Hope 70-104 or 67.3%

40 points add't for opponents from FT line.  And the old "Bobby Knight Indiana" stat (unfortunately opposite for Hope), attempt FT's (104 Hope) versus what your opponent's make (110).

I think this is a scary stat for Hope going forward, if not corrected.

Take away about 16 opponent attempts away for when Hope was fouling late while they were trailing in their 3 losses and I don't think this is as big of an advantage or problem.  When you play good teams and lose you typically have more fouls and fewer ft's.


I will say Hope's not going to be much better or worse than avg at the FT line this year, that just won't improve much.

So, using your numbers, 24 point difference in 5 games = approx. 5 points/game.

"When you play good teams and lose"...............typically 5 more points at the FT makes a difference.

Not sure Bobby Knight or other coaches who think this stat is important (make more FT's than your oppenents shoot), would give a pass for games in which they lost.  A big reason, you could be fouling late in the game is due to the fact that you got behind at the FT line and fouls during the game.

My opinion is that this stat will becoming a bigger "negative" as the season goes on........if things don't get modified.

I agree with you, Hope will be about an "average" FT shooting team.  My definition of average is 67%

[neilrocks]

I will say Hope's not going to be much better or worse than avg at the FT line this year, that just won't improve much.

Sac, I'd wager that, with the return of Steve Wittenbach and Grant Neil, Hope may improve a bit in both 3-point and free throw shooting. 

I'll also wager that Hope's "defense" against opponents' free throws will also improve . . . or, as KnightSlappy would surely expect, opponents' free throw shooting will regress to their average.

Agree on Wittenbach, not on Neil.  I do not see Grant's minutes being significant.

Agree that opponent's FT % will not maintain at 82.7%, which will help with the difference.  But, I still would like to see the quantity difference go away also

[realist]

Carthage was down 2 men from injuries sustained in the Hope game 6-7 Steve Jaskulske and 6-5 Marlon Senior.  That could explain Carthage's minutes a little.  They aren't a very deep team without those guys.

That is no doubt true but no Calvin starter played more than 26 minutes in either game this weekend. In the Hope/Wheaton game four Thunder players logged 40, 37, 35 and 33 minutes. I'm not suggesting Calvin starters put in that kind of PT but it seems to me your best players need to be putting in 30 minutes on a regular basis and that hasn't been happening. Maybe Calvin will start doing that once the conference season begins.

My advice is do not hold your breath waiting for any Calvin starter to see pt. over 31 or 32 in any game.  31-32 happens from time to time, but seldom more than that.
A quick check of the last 5 years shows the Calvin player with the highest mpg to be:
11-12 Snikkers    27.2
10-11 Rodts        27.8
9--10 Mantel       28.4
8-9    Smith        27.0
7-8    Veldhouse  28.6
The die is cast.  10 man rotation, and seldom will any player see more than 30-32 minutes.
Look at 4 or 5 years of box scores.

Welcome back, realist. Nothing like a couple Calvin losses to get the juices flowing again, eh?

I have been here all along.  It was nice that Calvin was able to start the season 6-0.
I was realy hoping they would come away from the CCIW/MIAA classic with at least 1 W.
I take no pleasure in Calvin losing contrary to what you might think.  When they lose I use the critical thinking skills I learned at Calvin to ask the question why did they lose, and sadly in recent years the question has become why do they lose so often.
My response to Oldknight was simply to point out a well established pattern of player time, and rotations. 
Everyone on these boards know I am not a fan of 16-12 and 13-13 seasons or KVS as a coach.
By his own admission on Sat. KVS said his team was "lethargic" to start the game.  If that was the first time we had seen it (lethargic play) or heard that excuse after the game was over it would be one thing, but frankly it wears thing after awhile.
All I really want, and expect is for KVS to do the job he is paid to do.  Stop the excuses, and have your team ready to play.  If he can't get the job done than perhaps it is time for him to move on.  KS in his (blogs) preseason write up seemed to indicate Calvin might struggle to make the 20 win plateau, and considering the talent and experience available I think that is a crying shame.   

[sac]

Opp 110-133 FT or 82.7%
Hope 70-104 or 67.3%

40 points add't for opponents from FT line.  And the old "Bobby Knight Indiana" stat (unfortunately opposite for Hope), attempt FT's (104 Hope) versus what your opponent's make (110).

I think this is a scary stat for Hope going forward, if not corrected.

Take away about 16 opponent attempts away for when Hope was fouling late while they were trailing in their 3 losses and I don't think this is as big of an advantage or problem.  When you play good teams and lose you typically have more fouls and fewer ft's.


I will say Hope's not going to be much better or worse than avg at the FT line this year, that just won't improve much.

So, using your numbers, 24 point difference in 5 games = approx. 5 points/game.

"When you play good teams and lose"...............typically 5 more points at the FT makes a difference.

Not sure Bobby Knight or other coaches who think this stat is important (make more FT's than your oppenents shoot), would give a pass for games in which they lost.  A big reason, you could be fouling late in the game is due to the fact that you got behind at the FT line and fouls during the game.

My opinion is that this stat will becoming a bigger "negative" as the season goes on........if things don't get modified.

I agree with you, Hope will be about an "average" FT shooting team.  My definition of average is 67%

I just don't think it will continue as the year goes on.  Hope's early season stats are much more the result of playing 1/2 their schedule against very good teams.  Wheaton, North Central and Cornerstone will all be playing post-season basketball most likely.  If they'd played the Purdue-North Central's, Earlham's and Oberlin's of the small college basketball world these FT stats just wouldn't look the way they do.

[oldknight]

As GK's post implies, this is a game Calvin really should have won. While the end-of-game play showed a regression to some of last season's habits, they actually lost the contest in the first 10 minutes when the Knights gave up 24 points the day after holding a far superior Wheaton team to 22 points in a half. Carthage scored on a series of easy layups and short jumpers over and around Calvin "defenders" who were simply AWOL during the first quarter of the game. The 24-14 deficit would have been worse if Carthage hadn't gone 0-6 from the arc.

Maybe I'm too old school but I just don't like doing line changes during closely contested basketball games. That's fine if the Calvin hockey coach does it but I don't like seeing that on the hardwood. After Calvin took a four point lead with just under seven minutes left, an entire new team entered, played three minutes, and then all the starters returned with the lead down to one. With the game on the line Calvin's "refreshed" players came up empty with three straight poorly executed possessions, even as their opponent continued scoring. It seems it's tough for Calvin to maintain any rhythm.

Yesterday, Wheaton had four players put in at least 30 minutes. Today, Snikkers played the most minutes for Calvin at 26 while every Carthage starter logged between 28 and 37 minutes. Tyler Kruis--for one--needs to play more. His line was 18 and 9 in 22 minutes while Luke Johnson--his counterpart on the Red Men--was 12 and 7 in 37 minutes. I imagine Luke breathed a quiet "Thank you" for the 15 minutes he didn't have to guard Tyler. I would prefer to see Calvin shorten its bench. Also, for the second straight game, Snikkers got more shots (14 each night) than did Jordan Brink. The youngster from Dyer, Indiana needs to be the one taking the most shots on the team this year and everyone on the team needs to expect that.

I agree wholeheartedly with shortening the bench and would amend your second statement to state that Brink and Kruis should be taking the most shots on the team this year

I second knightvision's motion in order to bring it to the floor for further discussion and a vote.