MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[realist]

As GK's post implies, this is a game Calvin really should have won. While the end-of-game play showed a regression to some of last season's habits, they actually lost the contest in the first 10 minutes when the Knights gave up 24 points the day after holding a far superior Wheaton team to 22 points in a half. Carthage scored on a series of easy layups and short jumpers over and around Calvin "defenders" who were simply AWOL during the first quarter of the game. The 24-14 deficit would have been worse if Carthage hadn't gone 0-6 from the arc.

Maybe I'm too old school but I just don't like doing line changes during closely contested basketball games. That's fine if the Calvin hockey coach does it but I don't like seeing that on the hardwood. After Calvin took a four point lead with just under seven minutes left, an entire new team entered, played three minutes, and then all the starters returned with the lead down to one. With the game on the line Calvin's "refreshed" players came up empty with three straight poorly executed possessions, even as their opponent continued scoring. It seems it's tough for Calvin to maintain any rhythm.

Yesterday, Wheaton had four players put in at least 30 minutes. Today, Snikkers played the most minutes for Calvin at 26 while every Carthage starter logged between 28 and 37 minutes. Tyler Kruis--for one--needs to play more. His line was 18 and 9 in 22 minutes while Luke Johnson--his counterpart on the Red Men--was 12 and 7 in 37 minutes. I imagine Luke breathed a quiet "Thank you" for the 15 minutes he didn't have to guard Tyler. I would prefer to see Calvin shorten its bench. Also, for the second straight game, Snikkers got more shots (14 each night) than did Jordan Brink. The youngster from Dyer, Indiana needs to be the one taking the most shots on the team this year and everyone on the team needs to expect that.

I agree wholeheartedly with shortening the bench and would amend your second statement to state that Brink and Kruis should be taking the most shots on the team this year

I second knightvision's motion in order to bring it to the floor for further discussion and a vote.

Good one.  +k.

However, a discussion and vote would be on a moot point.  The likelyhood of KVS changing his coaching preferences is just slightly better than a skunk changing it's smell.

[realist]

UWWW had 2 players average over 30 mpg for the season last year
Imagine what they might have done if they only had some depth.

Well that settles it.

It is a matter of coaching preference.   
You stated it just "never happens", and you implied that only a coach with no team depth and in a desperate situation would play players that long were easily refuted.  I can find multiple examples of winning teams using both strategies.

[sac]

UWWW had 2 players average over 30 mpg for the season last year
Imagine what they might have done if they only had some depth.

Well that settles it.

It is a matter of coaching preference.   
You stated it just "never happens", and you implied that only a coach with no team depth and in a desperate situation would play players that long were easily refuted.  I can find multiple examples of winning teams using both strategies.

Are you so sure you know enough about Whitewater's depth to know if they have capable back-ups behind those two players.  Is the coach really using this 'high-minutes' strategy because he wants to because he has to?

The going rate of 32+ minute guys seems to be under 20% of the total starters which means most teams just aren't going to have a 32+ guy on their team.

I think all of us respect Tom Izzo as one of the best coaches at utilizing his teams talent and maximizing their minutes.  In the last 4 seasons Tom's had 2 players avg over 32+ minutes, both logged about 33 minutes.  Even the master realizes you have to have depth and give your guys, even your best guys, a rest sometimes.


I see your argument about KVS this way.  If Calvin loses and he's got guys not playing 32 minutes he's not maximizing his teams talented players.  If Calvin loses and he's got guys playing 32+ minutes he's not maximizing his teams vast depth of talent.  It's a lose/lose with you.

[hope_hoops1]

I don't think there is any question that the players being discussed could play 32+ minutes -- it's just whether you want them to or not.  If your starter going at 75% effort is better than a bench player at 100% effort, then you should pace/play them accordingly.  However, I'm assuming most coaches would prefer the players giving 100% effort (or the grossly overused 110% effort) and needing to come out of a game for brief moments for a bench player who can give that same 100% effort, albeit slightly less skilled.

[realist]

Smith 37 minutes;
Kvam  33 minutes;
Peters 40 minutes;
Haynes 35 minutes;
Final score Wheaton 79  Hope 75.
The game is played to win, and Wheaton did what they had to do to win.  If that means playing 5 guys for 40 minutes each so be it. 

Does any Hope supporter feel better knowing how lacking in depth the Wheaton team must be?

Prediction:  Wheaton and Hope switch positions in the next top 25.

Personally I would play the guy with 10 talents playing at 75% before the 7.5 talent guy playing at 100%. 
Sac:  I am pretty sure I will not live long enough to see any player on any KVS coached team play much more than 32 minutes in any game.  That level of change would warp the time, and space continuim so badly I don't even want to give it any thought.

[KnightSlappy]

Calvin falls to #33 according to the Massey Ratings

Adrian is up to #17
Hope is at #28
Trine is at #123
Albion #192
Olivet# 228
Alma #229
Kalamazoo #254

(Wheaton is #3 and Carthage #24)

[KnightSlappy]

My quick count shows 27 instances of a Calvin player posting 30 or more minutes in a game last season.

[GoKnights68]

As many of you may already know, Coach K is known for playing a very short bench and their starters playing many minutes, and I think they have had some success over the years (although I question if some of their many early exits in the NCAA tourney the last 7 years could be a result of this).  A Duke fan did a nice breakdown and analysis of this topic for Division 1 basketball in recent years:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?29740-Roster-Depth-and-NCAA-Basketball-Success

While I see Sac's point of getting your bench a lot of experience in order to build your team for the second half of the season and hopefully peak MIAA tourney time, I am not sure limiting your star players' playing times is the right thing to do when each and every in-region game matters so much in order to get into the Division 3 NCAA Tourney that has been such a struggle for Calvin to get to the last 5 seasons.

[KnightSlappy]

As many of you may already know, Coach K is known for playing a very short bench and their starters playing many minutes, and I think they have had some success over the years (although I question if some of their many early exits in the NCAA tourney the last 7 years could be a result of this).  A Duke fan did a nice breakdown and analysis of this topic for Division 1 basketball in recent years:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?29740-Roster-Depth-and-NCAA-Basketball-Success

While I see Sac's point of getting your bench a lot of experience in order to build your team for the second half of the season and hopefully peak MIAA tourney time, I am not sure limiting your star players' playing times is the right thing to do when each and every in-region game matters so much in order to get into the Division 3 NCAA Tourney that has been such a struggle for Calvin to get to the last 5 seasons.

Calvin is 3-0 in regional games this year. 

[realist]

Adrian to 19
Wheaton to 22
Hope to 3 orv
Calvin drops off the bball cliff.

[realist]

As many of you may already know, Coach K is known for playing a very short bench and their starters playing many minutes, and I think they have had some success over the years (although I question if some of their many early exits in the NCAA tourney the last 7 years could be a result of this).  A Duke fan did a nice breakdown and analysis of this topic for Division 1 basketball in recent years:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?29740-Roster-Depth-and-NCAA-Basketball-Success

While I see Sac's point of getting your bench a lot of experience in order to build your team for the second half of the season and hopefully peak MIAA tourney time, I am not sure limiting your star players' playing times is the right thing to do when each and every in-region game matters so much in order to get into the Division 3 NCAA Tourney that has been such a struggle for Calvin to get to the last 5 seasons.

Thank you very much for posting that site. +k
I especially appreciated the following quote"
"2. This is a veritable hall of fame collection of coaches--they seem to have all arrived at the conclusion that if you play your best players and sit your less talented ones on the bench, you will win more games. Guess that's why they make the big bucks."

My goodness one of those coaches is the "revered" Izzo in 2000.  I guess he just does whatever he has to do to win.

[sac]

Calvin is 3-0 in regional games this year. 

Not to go on the in-region rant again, but it seems crazy that two schools 30 miles apart playing the same opponent in the same location only counts for one and not the other.  You couldn't even explain this to a non-d3 fan without liquor.

Perhaps D3 should consider an "in-region for one, in-region for all" rule within a conference or maybe even the entire region.

[sac]

As many of you may already know, Coach K is known for playing a very short bench and their starters playing many minutes, and I think they have had some success over the years (although I question if some of their many early exits in the NCAA tourney the last 7 years could be a result of this).  A Duke fan did a nice breakdown and analysis of this topic for Division 1 basketball in recent years:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?29740-Roster-Depth-and-NCAA-Basketball-Success

While I see Sac's point of getting your bench a lot of experience in order to build your team for the second half of the season and hopefully peak MIAA tourney time, I am not sure limiting your star players' playing times is the right thing to do when each and every in-region game matters so much in order to get into the Division 3 NCAA Tourney that has been such a struggle for Calvin to get to the last 5 seasons.

Thank you very much for posting that site. +k
I especially appreciated the following quote"
"2. This is a veritable hall of fame collection of coaches--they seem to have all arrived at the conclusion that if you play your best players and sit your less talented ones on the bench, you will win more games. Guess that's why they make the big bucks."

My goodness one of those coaches is the "revered" Izzo in 2000.  I guess he just does whatever he has to do to win.

Mateen Cleeves was the only Spartan to avg over 30 minutes that season at 31.5.
http://www.msuspartans.com/sports/m-baskbl/archive/060600aac.html

[almcguirejr]

Calvin is 3-0 in regional games this year. 

Not to go on the in-region rant again, but it seems crazy that two schools 30 miles apart playing the same opponent in the same location only counts for one and not the other.  You couldn't even explain this to a non-d3 fan without liquor.

Perhaps D3 should consider an "in-region for one, in-region for all" rule within a conference or maybe even the entire region.

if this was adopted it would save an 18 hour round trip bus ride to Finlandia.

[knightvision]

UWWW had 2 players average over 30 mpg for the season last year
Imagine what they might have done if they only had some depth.

Well that settles it.

It is a matter of coaching preference.   
You stated it just "never happens", and you implied that only a coach with no team depth and in a desperate situation would play players that long were easily refuted.  I can find multiple examples of winning teams using both strategies.

Are you so sure you know enough about Whitewater's depth to know if they have capable back-ups behind those two players.  Is the coach really using this 'high-minutes' strategy because he wants to because he has to?

The going rate of 32+ minute guys seems to be under 20% of the total starters which means most teams just aren't going to have a 32+ guy on their team.

I think all of us respect Tom Izzo as one of the best coaches at utilizing his teams talent and maximizing their minutes.  In the last 4 seasons Tom's had 2 players avg over 32+ minutes, both logged about 33 minutes.  Even the master realizes you have to have depth and give your guys, even your best guys, a rest sometimes.


I see your argument about KVS this way.  If Calvin loses and he's got guys not playing 32 minutes he's not maximizing his teams talented players.  If Calvin loses and he's got guys playing 32+ minutes he's not maximizing his teams vast depth of talent.  It's a lose/lose with you.

Interesting read from a December 2, 2012 article in the Free Press about the master's recent research experiment and the conclusions he came to regarding playing rotation:  http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012312020207      CliffsNotes summary in the event I screwed up the link:  "There definitely has to be a seven- or eight-man rotation, and then a couple guys that can float in and out of it." Coach Izzo

We all have different theories about exactly how much the best players should play, but at the end of the day I have serious reservations about Calvin's ability to be successful when the best players are playing 25 minutes or less.  It would be one thing if there was little evidence to support much difference between your top 10 guys, but 8 games in there is clearly some separation in performance that warrants a less egalitarian approach to the distribution of minutes.  I remain fully in support of OK's arguments/conclusions (pending approval of my amendment, of course )