MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[BogeyMan]

My understanding of the BW situation was that BW gave more money out to basketball athletes than they were allowed.  So my conclusion would be why are these athletes only ineligible for post season play instead of being ineligible for the entire season.  In a sense they have had an impact on seeding in the OAC tournament and regular season wins/loses when using questionable athletes.  I for one did not know that the punishment was not an NCAA punishment but a self inflicted punishment.  So, the NCAA did not have a problem with what BW did?

There were a few OAC vs MIAA matchups this year that I remember:
    - Hope over Marietta ( I believe Marietta's best player was out with an injury ) Marietta was 2nd seed in OAC tourney.  I also believe     
    both teams are much better now than they were earlier.
    - Heidelberg over Trine (Hberg was the 8th seed in OAC tourney)
    - Heidelberg over Albion

Were there more OAC/MIAA games this year?
   

[sac]

My understanding of the BW situation was that BW gave more money out to basketball athletes than they were allowed.  So my conclusion would be why are these athletes only ineligible for post season play instead of being ineligible for the entire season.  In a sense they have had an impact on seeding in the OAC tournament and regular season wins/loses when using questionable athletes.  I for one did not know that the punishment was not an NCAA punishment but a self inflicted punishment.  So, the NCAA did not have a problem with what BW did?

I don't believe they've had to answer in front of the NCAA yet.

There were a few OAC vs MIAA matchups this year that I remember:
    - Hope over Marietta ( I believe Marietta's best player was out with an injury ) Marietta was 2nd seed in OAC tourney.  I also believe     
    both teams are much better now than they were earlier.
    - Heidelberg over Trine (Hberg was the 8th seed in OAC tourney)
    - Heidelberg over Albion

Were there more OAC/MIAA games this year?
   

First....Hope/Marietta was last year.

Second...the MIAA went 5-5 vs the OAC
Adrian beat Mt. Union twice
Adrian beat Otterbein
Albion lost to Heidelberg
Alma beat Heidelberg
Alma lost to Ohio Northern
Alma lost to Capital
Alma beat Baldwin-Wallace
Olivet lost to Baldwin-Wallace
Trine lost to Heidelberg

[BogeyMan]

I went to the ONU vs Heidelberg game last night and thought those were pretty good teams for six and eight seeds!  Sorry about the Marietta/Hope game.  Getting too old to remember one year from the next!  Alma and Olivet had good wins against BW.  Really hard to say if one league stands above the other after looking at all the games.  My belief is the MIAA has the two best teams, but the OAC is much deeper in good teams!

Also, will BW ever have to answer to the NCAA?

[Pat Coleman]

Baldwin Wallace self-reported this past fall. The wheels tend to move slowly.

[OC_SID]

I went to the ONU vs Heidelberg game last night and thought those were pretty good teams for six and eight seeds!  Sorry about the Marietta/Hope game.  Getting too old to remember one year from the next!  Alma and Olivet had good wins against BW.  Really hard to say if one league stands above the other after looking at all the games.  My belief is the MIAA has the two best teams, but the OAC is much deeper in good teams!

Also, will BW ever have to answer to the NCAA?

Alma beat BW, but Olivet lost to BW.

[almcguirejr]

Spartan Bob running the clock again tonight for MSU.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Spartan Bob running the clock again tonight for MSU.

Izzo's secret weapon!

[Happy Calvin Guy]

Re: Player of the Year.  Will this be the year that Calvin breaks its 10 year drought?  There have been comments made on this board that Tom Snikkers is a shoo-in, and with a strong final week he could have cemented his case.  I don't see anyone else standing out to take any of the "Calvin vote" from him (i.e. no one could make a reasonable POY case for Kruis, Brink, Powell, etc), so if POY needs to be the best player on the best team, it's Tommy.  It would also be a nice honor to cap an excellent career.  Overway's premature end to his season took away Hope's only real POY candidate, so it will come down to the classic debate of whether it ought to go to the best player on the best team, or simply the best individual player.  Alternatively, I think you could definitely make a case for Mark Ghafari too--he fills the stat sheet (who was aware that he led the MIAA in defensive rebounds this season?) and is definitely one of those guys that defenses have to plan for.  It's just a matter of whether one is willing to cast a POY vote for any player whose team did not produce a winning record. 

I'd also be interested to hear from some of the long-time Calvin fans where they think Snikkers ranks in the all-time discussion for Calvin.  My feel is probably top-10, but not top-5, unless he leads the Knights to a very deep run in the NCAA tourney this year.

All this for discussion only....not to get ahead of ourselves.  The Knights absolutely cannot look past Thu night--sure we beat Adrian twice this year, but only by a total of 9 points.   I think Adrian might have finally gotten a taste of the "hey we can actually make the NCAA tourney for the first time ever" mindset earlier this season, but now realize that they need to win a couple to get there. 

[KnightSlappy]

Re: Player of the Year.  Will this be the year that Calvin breaks its 10 year drought?  There have been comments made on this board that Tom Snikkers is a shoo-in, and with a strong final week he could have cemented his case.  I don't see anyone else standing out to take any of the "Calvin vote" from him (i.e. no one could make a reasonable POY case for Kruis, Brink, Powell, etc), so if POY needs to be the best player on the best team, it's Tommy.  It would also be a nice honor to cap an excellent career.  Overway's premature end to his season took away Hope's only real POY candidate, so it will come down to the classic debate of whether it ought to go to the best player on the best team, or simply the best individual player.  Alternatively, I think you could definitely make a case for Mark Ghafari too--he fills the stat sheet (who was aware that he led the MIAA in defensive rebounds this season?) and is definitely one of those guys that defenses have to plan for.  It's just a matter of whether one is willing to cast a POY vote for any player whose team did not produce a winning record. 

I'd have no problem if Ian Jackson won the award. And I don't feel like Snikkers was necessarily more valuable than Kruis or Powell.

I'd also be interested to hear from some of the long-time Calvin fans where they think Snikkers ranks in the all-time discussion for Calvin.  My feel is probably top-10, but not top-5, unless he leads the Knights to a very deep run in the NCAA tourney this year.

If I was "drafting" a team, Snikkers might be my fourth pick on the current roster. But that might be a different question. I'd say maybe top-20 but certainly not top-10. I could probably come up with 10 guys in the last 10 years I'd rather have. Tom has been better in quantity than he has been in quality, but that may be partially due to timing and the types of teams he's been on.

All this for discussion only....not to get ahead of ourselves.  The Knights absolutely cannot look past Thu night--sure we beat Adrian twice this year, but only by a total of 9 points.   I think Adrian might have finally gotten a taste of the "hey we can actually make the NCAA tourney for the first time ever" mindset earlier this season, but now realize that they need to win a couple to get there.

Adrian is a shell of the team they were when conference play began, but yeah, Calvin probably needs to win the AQ to get in and Adrian can certainly beat them.

[maroonandgold]

I'd have no problem if Ian Jackson won the award. And I don't feel like Snikkers was necessarily more valuable than Kruis or Powell.

Quote from: Happy Calvin Guy on Today at 09:12:33 am

 

I'd also be interested to hear from some of the long-time Calvin fans where they think Snikkers ranks in the all-time discussion for Calvin.  My feel is probably top-10, but not top-5, unless he leads the Knights to a very deep run in the NCAA tourney this year.

If I was "drafting" a team, Snikkers might be my fourth pick on the current roster. But that might be a different question. I'd say maybe top-20 but certainly not top-10. I could probably come up with 10 guys in the last 10 years I'd rather have. Tom has been better in quantity than he has been in quality, but that may be partially due to timing and the types of teams he's been on.

I don't think I would put Snikkers in the top 5, top 10, or even the top twenty all-time for Calvin.  He does a lot of good things, but he has until this year been a poor percentage shooter from the outside and still has problems with thrown away passes.  Not all the passes that go out of bounds are his fault either.  But he has had a huge number of passes over the years that have not connected because the intended recipient was not expecting it. or they were thrown too wildly.   Even this year he has had a lot of difficulty completing the shots he attempts.  Failure of refs to call even obvious fouls has entered into that, too.  But all in all I would have to rate him as a good player who has contributed greatly to the successes Calvin has enjoyed while he is there, but there have always been a few more rough edges than with other top players.

As far as league MVP, I find myself leaning toward Rogers or Kalamazoo's Ghafari because the stats back up their contributions by quite a large margin.  If Snikkers had had a strong final week, it would be quite different.  But he seemed to disappear the last week of the season.  It is interesting that the same time he had a disappointing week the officials had, in my opinion the poorest games with constant obvious calls being ignored.  Tommy really had a hard time adjusting to those no-calls and you could see his frustration.  But the refs swallowed their whistles with others, too.  It may well be that the failure to make calls hurt Tommy more because so much of his game is right around the rim.

[neilrocks]

Re: Player of the Year.  Will this be the year that Calvin breaks its 10 year drought?  There have been comments made on this board that Tom Snikkers is a shoo-in, and with a strong final week he could have cemented his case.  I don't see anyone else standing out to take any of the "Calvin vote" from him (i.e. no one could make a reasonable POY case for Kruis, Brink, Powell, etc), so if POY needs to be the best player on the best team, it's Tommy.  It would also be a nice honor to cap an excellent career.  Overway's premature end to his season took away Hope's only real POY candidate, so it will come down to the classic debate of whether it ought to go to the best player on the best team, or simply the best individual player.  Alternatively, I think you could definitely make a case for Mark Ghafari too--he fills the stat sheet (who was aware that he led the MIAA in defensive rebounds this season?) and is definitely one of those guys that defenses have to plan for.  It's just a matter of whether one is willing to cast a POY vote for any player whose team did not produce a winning record. 

Not sure I exactly follow your "strong final week" comment.

Stats show:

Trine game, 4-13, 10 pts, 4 Turnovers and a "huge" T in the final minutes of the game
Olivet game, 2-9, 5 pts, 7 Turnovers

Not really a strong final week

Maybe you are saying "IF" he had a strong final week.

I agree he probably wins it, because his team won the title and he appears to be the "standout" from his team.

However, I think it is a reach to call him a "clear-cut" MVP.

As an outsider, I think in alot of games he does as much to hurt his team as he does to help it.

Some games he is great, other games, I shake my head.  Not my definition of an MVP.  But again, I think he wins it.

[neilrocks]

I think basketball has just become a better defensive game.  Defenses do a better job of interrupting what offenses are trying to do and thus offenses don't look nearly as fluid as they used to.


In general, scoring has been declining in the college game for the past 20 years and so its true in D3 as well.  Scoring is down 3 points per game since 2002
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/resources/stats/m+basketball/trends.html


Its just a slower more deliberate game now.  The game doesn't look as pretty as it once did.

Defenses have certainly gotten more sophisticated but I believe the way games are officiated now has a greater impact on scoring. I can't believe what defenses get away with today. Clutch and grab is common and only infrequently called by officials. It has even filtered down to the prep game. My high school team's per game average was 76 points, and we once played a regulation 32 minute game with a final score of 102-93. That just can't happen anymore given the way refs call games--or don't call them. It's amazing more fights don't break out.

I would put the use of hands by the defense to impede offensive players at the top of the list of reasons scoring is down.

Among the others would be players being better at slowing down fast breaks and the dwindling skills of big men who all think shooting 3's is more important than learning post moves.

Sac and OldKnight -

I agree with both of you that the game is much more defensive in the past 20 years and "clutch and grab" is a HUGE factor in that.

However, on the offensive side (I realize scoring is down), there are several things that happen, that did not happen 20 years ago too:

1.  Carrying or palming of the ball - this trend is alarming, you can basically pick up the ball on your 1st step and not get called for it.

2.  Travelling - you are more permitted at least an additional 1/2 step now days versus years ago.  I would guess to say that travelling in the technical sense aka. by the rulebook, occurs in about every 3rd possession now days.

3.  Illegal screens - with the domination of the high pick and roll game, these type of screens are more common place now than a good solid "within the rules" screen.

4.  Continuation - officials allow at least one add't step now for the continuation of a play/basket after a foul.  BTW, travelling occurs most of the time on these type of plays too.  In last nights, IU/MSU game I can think of 4-5 situations where this occurred.  Not in all the situations did the basket go in, but it would have counted if it did.  20 years ago, if you fouled a player near the free line or wing, he "never" got a continuation call.  Now it is common place.

My thoughts, I agree the clutch and grab is utilizied almost every possession by defenses.  However, on the offensive end, almost every possession now includes one of the above 4 items to "help" the O.

I love the game of basketball and still enjoy going to games.

However, IMHO, if they want to make the games more "fluid" and more "offensive" then they need to begin to enforce the "rules" as they are written both offensively and defensively.  I know this won't happen because the game has taken it too far with this stuff and it would mean retraining a whole generation of players/kids.

I would also be fine with them updating the rule book to reflect the "new" standards of play above.  But, it sort of feels sometimes like the Regional Rankings selection process, stuff is written in black and white, but not always enforced or modified based on the game or year.

[neilrocks]

I know this is alittle of topic from our current discussions, but that IU/MSU game last night was fun to watch as a fan of basketball.  Both teams played with a high level of skill and determination.  Even though I am not particularly a raging fan of either school, I have great respect for both coaches and how they approach the game and their teams.

I was watching the game with my wife and she commented several times about each coach's intensity.  I gave her a little background on the Izzo/Crean relationship and the IU debacle prior to Crean.

It got me thinking, so, after the game I spent about an hour googling articles from the end of the Kelvin Sampson era (07-08) and the beginning of the Crean era (2008-present).  It is quite amazing what this coach and program went through in 2008-2010 and where they are now.  It shows that Tom Crean must be a heck of a coach and an even stronger person.

Spend the time to google a few of the articles to get perspective on what he came into and what he said back in April/May 2008 on how he was going fix/rebuild the program.

Pretty good stuff and he has done it the past two years.

[sac]

However, on the offensive side (I realize scoring is down), there are several things that happen, that did not happen 20 years ago too:

1.  Carrying or palming of the ball - this trend is alarming, you can basically pick up the ball on your 1st step and not get called for it.

2.  Travelling - you are more permitted at least an additional 1/2 step now days versus years ago.  I would guess to say that travelling in the technical sense aka. by the rulebook, occurs in about every 3rd possession now days.

3.  Illegal screens - with the domination of the high pick and roll game, these type of screens are more common place now than a good solid "within the rules" screen.

4.  Continuation - officials allow at least one add't step now for the continuation of a play/basket after a foul.  BTW, travelling occurs most of the time on these type of plays too.  In last nights, IU/MSU game I can think of 4-5 situations where this occurred.  Not in all the situations did the basket go in, but it would have counted if it did.  20 years ago, if you fouled a player near the free line or wing, he "never" got a continuation call.  Now it is common place.

All good thoughts, imagine how defensive the game would be without these 'advantages' to the offense.

[Happy Calvin Guy]

It seems I hold Snikkers in a bit of a higher regard than some others do. His career production is excellent, and this "quantity" should not be held against him.  He contributed as a freshman, and was durable for four years.  He needed to carry the burden for a couple of seasons (SO and JR), first due to a weaker, more passive offensive roster, and second, due to injuries.  That probably caused lower shooting percentages than you like to see.  He is an excellent passer, and many of his turnovers were the result of teammates mishandling great passes.  Now we are talking about him probably winning MIAA POY as a senior, albeit debatable.

I would have liked to see him develop a bit more poise in the face of adversity on the court, and a more reliable 3 point shot earlier in his career (he has quietly developed into a pretty good long distance shooter this year).  But overall, can anyone name 10 Calvin players who have a better career "body of work" than Tom?   Look at generally accepted "Hall of Fame" factors like statistical totals across the major categories (he ranks currently in top 8 all-time in points, rebounds and assists--the only others?  Aaron Winkle and Jeremy Veenstra), total career games played and wins, number of seasons in which he is generally considered the team's top player (3), etc?