MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[neilrocks]

However, on the offensive side (I realize scoring is down), there are several things that happen, that did not happen 20 years ago too:

1.  Carrying or palming of the ball - this trend is alarming, you can basically pick up the ball on your 1st step and not get called for it.

2.  Travelling - you are more permitted at least an additional 1/2 step now days versus years ago.  I would guess to say that travelling in the technical sense aka. by the rulebook, occurs in about every 3rd possession now days.

3.  Illegal screens - with the domination of the high pick and roll game, these type of screens are more common place now than a good solid "within the rules" screen.

4.  Continuation - officials allow at least one add't step now for the continuation of a play/basket after a foul.  BTW, travelling occurs most of the time on these type of plays too.  In last nights, IU/MSU game I can think of 4-5 situations where this occurred.  Not in all the situations did the basket go in, but it would have counted if it did.  20 years ago, if you fouled a player near the free line or wing, he "never" got a continuation call.  Now it is common place.

All good thoughts, imagine how defensive the game would be without these 'advantages' to the offense.

Scores would look like soccer games!   

[SKOT]

However, on the offensive side (I realize scoring is down), there are several things that happen, that did not happen 20 years ago too:

1.  Carrying or palming of the ball - this trend is alarming, you can basically pick up the ball on your 1st step and not get called for it.

2.  Travelling - you are more permitted at least an additional 1/2 step now days versus years ago.  I would guess to say that travelling in the technical sense aka. by the rulebook, occurs in about every 3rd possession now days.

3.  Illegal screens - with the domination of the high pick and roll game, these type of screens are more common place now than a good solid "within the rules" screen.

4.  Continuation - officials allow at least one add't step now for the continuation of a play/basket after a foul.  BTW, travelling occurs most of the time on these type of plays too.  In last nights, IU/MSU game I can think of 4-5 situations where this occurred.  Not in all the situations did the basket go in, but it would have counted if it did.  20 years ago, if you fouled a player near the free line or wing, he "never" got a continuation call.  Now it is common place.

All good thoughts, imagine how defensive the game would be without these 'advantages' to the offense.

But, how much of that is negated by the clutching and grabbing from the portion of his post that got cropped out?  While, I have never played basketball at any competitive level, I know that grabbing a handful of uni while playing soccer was a HUGE advantage for a defender when you got away with it. 

[neilrocks]

I would have liked to see him develop a bit more poise in the face of adversity on the court, and a more reliable 3 point shot earlier in his career (he has quietly developed into a pretty good long distance shooter this year).  But overall, can anyone name 10 Calvin players who have a better career "body of work" than Tom?   Look at generally accepted "Hall of Fame" factors like statistical totals across the major categories (he ranks currently in top 8 all-time in points, rebounds and assists--the only others?  Aaron Winkle and Jeremy Veenstra), total career games played and wins, number of seasons in which he is generally considered the team's top player (3), etc?

Ok, I will take the bait.  Not being a Calvin alum, however, I have competed against and watched them since 1986, so I will take a shot.  These are at least 10 players I would pick in front of Tom:

1.  Mark Veenstra
2.  Steve Honderd
3.  Jeremy Veenstra
4.  Aaron Winkle
5.  Caleb Veldhouse
6.  Bill Sall
7.  Dan Davis
8.  Dan Aultman
9.  Jim Schipper
10.  Kevin Van Dyne

11.  Jim Timmer
12.  John Mantel
13.  Andy Draayer
14.  Matt Harrison
15.  Chris Knoester
16.  Gregg Afman
17.  Darrell VanLaare
18.  Derek Griffin
19.  Mike LeFebre
20.  Todd Hennink

I feel from an outsider's perspective, Tom probably fits in the 11-20 range.  However, two seasons of 16-12 and 13-13, make him outside the top 10 IMHO.

I'm sure the Calvin legendary fans could rank a better list than my top 20.

[ziggy]

Neilrocks,
Interesting you have Caleb Veldhouse so high. Not saying I disagree, especially when considering how much be contributed over the total of four years, but KnightSlappy and I were having a discussion the other day regarding Bryan Powell this season vs. Caleb Veldhouse's best (whichever you choose that to be). It's closer than you might think. Now, that likely speaks to Powell's season being under-appreciated rather than Veldhouse being over-appreciated but I thought it was an interesting comparison.

[maroonandgold]

Ok, I will take the bait.  Not being a Calvin alum, however, I have competed against and watched them since 1986, so I will take a shot.  These are at least 10 players I would pick in front of Tom:

1.  Mark Veenstra
2.  Steve Honderd
3.  Jeremy Veenstra
4.  Aaron Winkle
5.  Caleb Veldhouse
6.  Bill Sall
7.  Dan Davis
8.  Dan Aultman
9.  Jim Schipper
10.  Kevin Van Dyne

11.  Jim Timmer
12.  John Mantel
13.  Andy Draayer
14.  Matt Harrison
15.  Chris Knoester
16.  Gregg Afman
17.  Darrell VanLaare
18.  Derek Griffin
19.  Mike LeFebre
20.  Todd Hennink

Having followed Calvin for many decades, I would agree with most of those on Neilrocks list.  I would also add a number that are not on the list from earlier years.  They would include Ralph Honderd, Bill Waltersdorff from the undefeated 1960-61 team, and  Tom Newhof.  What makes it difficult to compare is the fact that Snikkers does so many things well while others on the list  were stronger shooters or stronger defenders or stronger rebounders.  Snikkers does so many things well, but he also does a number of things (such passes that do not connect and poor shots) poorly.

[GoKnights68]

A small random tidbit that I do not think has been noted yet here since the regular season ended last Saturday.  And that is: There has not been a share of MIAA regular season championship since 2003 with Albion and Hope.  Before then, the last time was 1999 with Calvin and Hope.   Those are the only two years in which there has been a share since 1982.  Just a little surprising.

Calvin has not won the MIAA and the MIAA tourney in the same year since 2001.  It's time to get that monkey off our backs.  GO KNIGHTS!

[Flying Dutch Fan]

IMHO I think Snikkers is a fine player, but his turnover rate is just too high - regardless of the "reason" for the turnover.  To date he has 308 turnovers in his career - a rate of 2.9 per game played.  That is just too much of a liability to be considered a top player.

[maroonandgold]

IMHO I think Snikkers is a fine player, but his turnover rate is just too high - regardless of the "reason" for the turnover.  To date he has 308 turnovers in his career - a rate of 2.9 per game played.  That is just too much of a liability to be considered a top player.

Thanks to Flying Dutch Fan for verifying statistically what I have observed over 4 seasons.  It was still a major problem in the last week of his regular season games in the MIAA.  Although I would be willing to agree that part of the problem is recognition by other players, there were still far too many turnovers as recently as last week, and that is not the sign of an absolutely top-notch player in his senior year.

[KnightSlappy]

IMHO I think Snikkers is a fine player, but his turnover rate is just too high - regardless of the "reason" for the turnover.  To date he has 308 turnovers in his career - a rate of 2.9 per game played.  That is just too much of a liability to be considered a top player.

Thanks to Flying Dutch Fan for verifying statistically what I have observed over 4 seasons.  It was still a major problem in the last week of his regular season games in the MIAA.  Although I would be willing to agree that part of the problem is recognition by other players, there were still far too many turnovers as recently as last week, and that is not the sign of an absolutely top-notch player in his senior year.

Ian Jackson is at 2.3 TO/G for his career.

[calvinite]

Matt Veltema? I put him in the top 20 -- and not just for 3-point shooting.

[Happy Calvin Guy]

Ian Jackson is at 2.3 TO/G for his career.

LeBron James averages 3.3 TO/G for his career and his teammates typically catch what he throws their way.

[sac]

David Krombeen avg'd 2.1 in his MVP season a year ago.


I think we're just recognizing a teams best player typically has the ball in his hands the most and will therefore make more turnovers.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Ian Jackson is at 2.3 TO/G for his career.

LeBron James averages 3.3 TO/G for his career and his teammates typically catch what he throws their way.

And Joel Holstege averaged 3.04 TO/G for his career. I realize you can't single out one stat to determine if someone is a top player.  My point was that this negative for TS weighs too heavily against his positives for him to be a top player IMHO. 

[sac]

Great article with West Liberty's Jim Crutchfield, ties in with the earlier discussion on scoring.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8959324/college-basketball-scoring-problem-west-liberty-university-coach-jim-crutchfield

[wiz]

Ian Jackson is at 2.3 TO/G for his career.

LeBron James averages 3.3 TO/G for his career and his teammates typically catch what he throws their way.

My point was that this negative for TS weighs too heavily against his positives for him to be a top player IMHO.

Humble opinion?