MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Ian Jackson is at 2.3 TO/G for his career.

LeBron James averages 3.3 TO/G for his career and his teammates typically catch what he throws their way.

My point was that this negative for TS weighs too heavily against his positives for him to be a top player IMHO.

Humble opinion?

Yup...

humble adjective: courteously respectful

opinion  noun: a personal view, attitude, or appraisal

or is it that I said something that could be considered negative about a Calvin player that is the problem?  I'm just giving you my honest opinion of what is being discussed without attacking said player at all.  I think TS is a fine player, just not a top player (whatever that means to each of us) 

[arena]

I would have liked to see him develop a bit more poise in the face of adversity on the court, and a more reliable 3 point shot earlier in his career (he has quietly developed into a pretty good long distance shooter this year).  But overall, can anyone name 10 Calvin players who have a better career "body of work" than Tom?   Look at generally accepted "Hall of Fame" factors like statistical totals across the major categories (he ranks currently in top 8 all-time in points, rebounds and assists--the only others?  Aaron Winkle and Jeremy Veenstra), total career games played and wins, number of seasons in which he is generally considered the team's top player (3), etc?

Ok, I will take the bait.  Not being a Calvin alum, however, I have competed against and watched them since 1986, so I will take a shot.  These are at least 10 players I would pick in front of Tom:

1.  Mark Veenstra
2.  Steve Honderd
3.  Jeremy Veenstra
4.  Aaron Winkle
5.  Caleb Veldhouse
6.  Bill Sall
7.  Dan Davis
8.  Dan Aultman
9.  Jim Schipper
10.  Kevin Van Dyne

11.  Jim Timmer
12.  John Mantel
13.  Andy Draayer
14.  Matt Harrison
15.  Chris Knoester
16.  Gregg Afman
17.  Darrell VanLaare
18.  Derek Griffin
19.  Mike LeFebre
20.  Todd Hennink

I feel from an outsider's perspective, Tom probably fits in the 11-20 range.  However, two seasons of 16-12 and 13-13, make him outside the top 10 IMHO.

I'm sure the Calvin legendary fans could rank a better list than my top 20.

Can't argue with that list.  I see Snikkers as more top 30 Calvin player.

[oldknight]

I would have liked to see him develop a bit more poise in the face of adversity on the court, and a more reliable 3 point shot earlier in his career (he has quietly developed into a pretty good long distance shooter this year).  But overall, can anyone name 10 Calvin players who have a better career "body of work" than Tom?   Look at generally accepted "Hall of Fame" factors like statistical totals across the major categories (he ranks currently in top 8 all-time in points, rebounds and assists--the only others?  Aaron Winkle and Jeremy Veenstra), total career games played and wins, number of seasons in which he is generally considered the team's top player (3), etc?

Ok, I will take the bait.  Not being a Calvin alum, however, I have competed against and watched them since 1986, so I will take a shot.  These are at least 10 players I would pick in front of Tom:

1.  Mark Veenstra
2.  Steve Honderd
3.  Jeremy Veenstra
4.  Aaron Winkle
5.  Caleb Veldhouse
6.  Bill Sall
7.  Dan Davis
8.  Dan Aultman
9.  Jim Schipper
10.  Kevin Van Dyne

11.  Jim Timmer
12.  John Mantel
13.  Andy Draayer
14.  Matt Harrison
15.  Chris Knoester
16.  Gregg Afman
17.  Darrell VanLaare
18.  Derek Griffin
19.  Mike LeFebre
20.  Todd Hennink

I feel from an outsider's perspective, Tom probably fits in the 11-20 range.  However, two seasons of 16-12 and 13-13, make him outside the top 10 IMHO.

I'm sure the Calvin legendary fans could rank a better list than my top 20.

Can't argue with that list.  I see Snikkers as more top 30 Calvin player.

Actually, you could . . . and I will. Most of the 20 names there are either no-brainers or worthy of at least some consideration. But Gregg Afman and Darrell VanLaare? I think not.

[oldknight]

Any word on Adrian's Adam Meier? He hasn't played since going to the bench two weeks ago after playing the first three minutes against Alma. The Bulldogs already aren't the same team that visited VNA in early January and without the young man from Plainwell, a rather thin Adrian squad gets even thinner.

[arena]

I would have liked to see him develop a bit more poise in the face of adversity on the court, and a more reliable 3 point shot earlier in his career (he has quietly developed into a pretty good long distance shooter this year).  But overall, can anyone name 10 Calvin players who have a better career "body of work" than Tom?   Look at generally accepted "Hall of Fame" factors like statistical totals across the major categories (he ranks currently in top 8 all-time in points, rebounds and assists--the only others?  Aaron Winkle and Jeremy Veenstra), total career games played and wins, number of seasons in which he is generally considered the team's top player (3), etc?

Ok, I will take the bait.  Not being a Calvin alum, however, I have competed against and watched them since 1986, so I will take a shot.  These are at least 10 players I would pick in front of Tom:

1.  Mark Veenstra
2.  Steve Honderd
3.  Jeremy Veenstra
4.  Aaron Winkle
5.  Caleb Veldhouse
6.  Bill Sall
7.  Dan Davis
8.  Dan Aultman
9.  Jim Schipper
10.  Kevin Van Dyne

11.  Jim Timmer
12.  John Mantel
13.  Andy Draayer
14.  Matt Harrison
15.  Chris Knoester
16.  Gregg Afman
17.  Darrell VanLaare
18.  Derek Griffin
19.  Mike LeFebre
20.  Todd Hennink

I feel from an outsider's perspective, Tom probably fits in the 11-20 range.  However, two seasons of 16-12 and 13-13, make him outside the top 10 IMHO.

I'm sure the Calvin legendary fans could rank a better list than my top 20.

Can't argue with that list.  I see Snikkers as more top 30 Calvin player.

Actually, you could . . . and I will. Most of the 20 names there are either no-brainers or worthy of at least some consideration. But Gregg Afman and Darrell VanLaare? I think not.

And, as I have shown in the past, one can argue about anything, but I can't argue with you about those two.  Maybe Snikkers moves up a couple spots.

[neilrocks]

I would have liked to see him develop a bit more poise in the face of adversity on the court, and a more reliable 3 point shot earlier in his career (he has quietly developed into a pretty good long distance shooter this year).  But overall, can anyone name 10 Calvin players who have a better career "body of work" than Tom?   Look at generally accepted "Hall of Fame" factors like statistical totals across the major categories (he ranks currently in top 8 all-time in points, rebounds and assists--the only others?  Aaron Winkle and Jeremy Veenstra), total career games played and wins, number of seasons in which he is generally considered the team's top player (3), etc?

Ok, I will take the bait.  Not being a Calvin alum, however, I have competed against and watched them since 1986, so I will take a shot.  These are at least 10 players I would pick in front of Tom:

1.  Mark Veenstra
2.  Steve Honderd
3.  Jeremy Veenstra
4.  Aaron Winkle
5.  Caleb Veldhouse
6.  Bill Sall
7.  Dan Davis
8.  Dan Aultman
9.  Jim Schipper
10.  Kevin Van Dyne

11.  Jim Timmer
12.  John Mantel
13.  Andy Draayer
14.  Matt Harrison
15.  Chris Knoester
16.  Gregg Afman
17.  Darrell VanLaare
18.  Derek Griffin
19.  Mike LeFebre
20.  Todd Hennink

I feel from an outsider's perspective, Tom probably fits in the 11-20 range.  However, two seasons of 16-12 and 13-13, make him outside the top 10 IMHO.

I'm sure the Calvin legendary fans could rank a better list than my top 20.

Can't argue with that list.  I see Snikkers as more top 30 Calvin player.

Actually, you could . . . and I will. Most of the 20 names there are either no-brainers or worthy of at least some consideration. But Gregg Afman and Darrell VanLaare? I think not.

Ok, OldKnight, I would agree your list will be better than mine.

Maybe it is the orange and blue blood in me that included Afman

However, I always felt VanLaare was pretty underrated and underappreciated for what he did.  More of the dirty work than the big lights type stuff.

But, I agree, he is a reach.  Maybe insert Todd Medendorp instead?

[oldknight]

I would have liked to see him develop a bit more poise in the face of adversity on the court, and a more reliable 3 point shot earlier in his career (he has quietly developed into a pretty good long distance shooter this year).  But overall, can anyone name 10 Calvin players who have a better career "body of work" than Tom?   Look at generally accepted "Hall of Fame" factors like statistical totals across the major categories (he ranks currently in top 8 all-time in points, rebounds and assists--the only others?  Aaron Winkle and Jeremy Veenstra), total career games played and wins, number of seasons in which he is generally considered the team's top player (3), etc?

Ok, I will take the bait.  Not being a Calvin alum, however, I have competed against and watched them since 1986, so I will take a shot.  These are at least 10 players I would pick in front of Tom:

1.  Mark Veenstra
2.  Steve Honderd
3.  Jeremy Veenstra
4.  Aaron Winkle
5.  Caleb Veldhouse
6.  Bill Sall
7.  Dan Davis
8.  Dan Aultman
9.  Jim Schipper
10.  Kevin Van Dyne

11.  Jim Timmer
12.  John Mantel
13.  Andy Draayer
14.  Matt Harrison
15.  Chris Knoester
16.  Gregg Afman
17.  Darrell VanLaare
18.  Derek Griffin
19.  Mike LeFebre
20.  Todd Hennink

I feel from an outsider's perspective, Tom probably fits in the 11-20 range.  However, two seasons of 16-12 and 13-13, make him outside the top 10 IMHO.

I'm sure the Calvin legendary fans could rank a better list than my top 20.

Can't argue with that list.  I see Snikkers as more top 30 Calvin player.

Actually, you could . . . and I will. Most of the 20 names there are either no-brainers or worthy of at least some consideration. But Gregg Afman and Darrell VanLaare? I think not.

Ok, OldKnight, I would agree your list will be better than mine.

Maybe it is the orange and blue blood in me that included Afman

However, I always felt VanLaare was pretty underrated and underappreciated for what he did.  More of the dirty work than the big lights type stuff.

But, I agree, he is a reach.  Maybe insert Todd Medendorp instead?

I see the list doesn't predate those who competed prior to 40 years ago. If we went back to the 60's (or even the 50's  ) there would be several excellent choices but I will limit myself to the dates given. How about this player from That '70s Show--Larry VanderVeen?

[BogeyMan]

Is there a difference between a MVP and the best player in the league?  Again, another humble opinion, Snikkers would get my vote for the MVP but I would have to say Ian Jackson is the best player in the league?

[realist]

The MIAA select 6 players as All MIAA, and one of these is designated as MVP.
Each team can do as they please, but best player in the league is the MVP by default.

[oldknight]

The only reason we're having a debate over MVP at all is because of the last two games when Snikkers scored 15 points, had 11 boards and 11 turnovers. For me the only other serious contenders are Ian Jackson and Tyler Kruis. If you look at the enhanced statistics the MIAA website provides, you will note that Tom finished fifth in scoring and third in rebounding despite the fact that every player who finished ahead of him in both categories played significantly more minutes. Ian Jackson played 116 more minutes than did Tom--nearly three full games--so it's no surprise he scored more points. I suppose you could argue that since Ian Jackson played 116 more minutes than did Snik, that proves he is more valuable, but that's not persuasive enough for me. His team finished third and leading your team to the title counts for a lot in my book.

[HopeConvert]

The only reason we're having a debate over MVP at all is because of the last two games when Snikkers scored 15 points, had 11 boards and 11 turnovers. For me the only other serious contenders are Ian Jackson and Tyler Kruis. If you look at the enhanced statistics the MIAA website provides, you will note that Tom finished fifth in scoring and third in rebounding despite the fact that every player who finished ahead of him in both categories played significantly more minutes. Ian Jackson played 116 more minutes than did Tom--nearly three full games--so it's no surprise he scored more points. I suppose you could argue that since Ian Jackson played 116 more minutes than did Snik, that proves he is more valuable, but that's not persuasive enough for me. His team finished third and leading your team to the title counts for a lot in my book.

In the immediate context I think that's true. But I believe the big reason there's a debate is because there's no single standout player this year in the league. Last year there were two worthy candidates in Krombeen and Snuggerud. I don't think anyone in the league has played at the level either of those two did last year. Look at the list of MVP's over the last 20 years, and I just don't think anyone in the league performed consistently at the level of any of them.

[sac]

Krombeen  14.7 pts, 58 rbs, 58 assists, 27 stls,   4 blocks 35 turnovers...50% FG, 44% 3FG, 74% FT

Snikkers     14.9 pts, 94 rbs, 31 assists, 13 stls, 24 blocks, 41 turnovers..47% FG, 36% 3FG, 65% FT
I. Jackson   21.0 pts, 50 rbs, 30 assists, 17 stls,   3 blocks, 29 turnovers..44% FG, 37% 3FG, 74% FT

[Erm Schmigget]

OK and HC-  I agree with most of what you're saying in regards to this MVP discussion/debate.  It seems there's no clear-cut candidate like in years past.  Without that clear leader in bare stats--without regard for minutes played--it might therefore be helpful this year to look at a player's contribution in terms of efficiency.  Just for fun, I looked at someone from Hope's roster in that light.  Here's what I found for Nate Snuggerud:

Nate finished the regular season in the top ten in scoring (10th), field goals per game (10th), FT/game (6th), and FG% (2nd), all while playing only 19.4 min/game (42nd).  As for rebounding, he finished tied for 15th in rebounds/game, with 4.9.  He played 117 fewer minutes than Snikkers, almost 3 full games, and 233 fewer than Ian Jackson, almost 6 full games.  If you adjust for efficiency, He leads the league in points per 40min (26.5), FG/40min (10.3 made/19.3 attempts) and is 2nd in FT/40min (6.3/9.4).  Obviously, the FG% doesn't change, but the leader was Adam Peters from Kalamazoo, and truthfully no one is considering him in this discussion.  If you look at rebounding efficiency, Snuggs is 6th, ahead of Snikkers (9th), and Krius (13th)...Jackson didn't make the top 50.

Alot has been said about Nate this season, and alot was expected of him before the season started.  We didn't see what we thought we might from him, so it's natural to sub-consciously eliminate him from our consideration for MVP.  I'm not going to argue that he should be in the running for the distinction, but if we're going to look at a player's efficiency as a benchmark for MVP consideration, we could put together a pretty strong case for Nate Snuggerud.

[bojack]

OK and HC-  I agree with most of what you're saying in regards to this MVP discussion/debate.  It seems there's no clear-cut candidate like in years past.  Without that clear leader in bare stats--without regard for minutes played--it might therefore be helpful this year to look at a player's contribution in terms of efficiency.  Just for fun, I looked at someone from Hope's roster in that light.  Here's what I found for Nate Snuggerud:

Nate finished the regular season in the top ten in scoring (10th), field goals per game (10th), FT/game (6th), and FG% (2nd), all while playing only 19.4 min/game (42nd).  As for rebounding, he finished tied for 15th in rebounds/game, with 4.9.  He played 117 fewer minutes than Snikkers, almost 3 full games, and 233 fewer than Ian Jackson, almost 6 full games.  If you adjust for efficiency, He leads the league in points per 40min (26.5), FG/40min (10.3 made/19.3 attempts) and is 2nd in FT/40min (6.3/9.4).  Obviously, the FG% doesn't change, but the leader was Adam Peters from Kalamazoo, and truthfully no one is considering him in this discussion.  If you look at rebounding efficiency, Snuggs is 6th, ahead of Snikkers (9th), and Krius (13th)...Jackson didn't make the top 50.

Alot has been said about Nate this season, and alot was expected of him before the season started.  We didn't see what we thought we might from him, so it's natural to sub-consciously eliminate him from our consideration for MVP.  I'm not going to argue that he should be in the running for the distinction, but if we're going to look at a player's efficiency as a benchmark for MVP consideration, we could put together a pretty strong case for Nate Snuggerud.

Yes you could make a case. This is all assuming Nate was in the physical/mental condition to handle more than an average 19.4 min/g he was given...

[Erm Schmigget]

This is in line with what I was thinking.  I just thought I'd leave it up to someone else to point it out.