MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[John Gleich]

I think most coaches would give Steve Djurickovic at least as many minutes as his father gave him (based on all the articles I just read about his ability). I'm not commenting on the Neil situation and now wish I hadn't contributed to it in the first place. I do wonder if non-parent coaches of Steve Djurickovic wouldn't have given him MORE minutes....

I think in the heat of the game, the thought about how many minutes your son is playing won't factor in for most coaches. Unlike a parent who's focus will (in many/most cases, and pretty understandably) be with their son first, due to, perhaps over-inflated view of their son's ability or in a desire to simply see their sons get some glory and play well, a coach has the team in mind. They want what's best for the team, and ultimately, the success of the team reflects on them.


I played with Nick Bennett at UWSP under his dad Jack Bennett. Nick is UWSP's #3 scorer (3 points away from #2). Interestingly, I also played with Jason Kalsow, who's UWSP's #1 all time scorer. There wasn't any favoritism showed... in some respects, Jack held Nick to a higher standard, but it raised the level of the team too.

You can read about Jack and Nick here: http://d3hoops.com/archives/men/2004/father-son-pointers

[Flying Dutch Fan]

From the Hope website (and numerous social networks):

The Hope College campus will close at noon today (Friday, Jan. 24) because of the deteriorating weather conditions.

All classes and college events are cancelled for the rest of the day.

The college is continuing to provide services essential to students.

A decision on Saturday's activities will be made at 6 a.m. Saturday.

Gotta believe that tomorrows games are at risk of being postponed

[hope1]

i to think sat game will be cancled too

[Gregory Sager]

Playing time is not always tricky and problematic, even in the case of the son of the head coach being on the team. Some coaches' kids are so good that the whole thing is a moot point. Steve Djurickovic of Carthage (2,547 points, #1 in Carthage history), Scott Gillespie of Ripon (1,871 points, #1 in Ripon history), and Derek Raridon of North Central (1,690 points, #2 in NCC history) all come to mind as examples from the last four years. Their dads didn't worry about how much they played them or how they treated them. Those guys were superstars, and such issues were completely irrelevant.

The issues with parent coaches goes well beyond playing time – playing time just seems to be the most volatile issues. I didn't say always – and should not have said 'always' if I did, but I stand by my point that there is USUALLY a PERCEPTION by SOME of a problem with a PARENT COACH  at SOME POINT being too hard OR giving breaks to their own child.

I have no problem with the qualifier used being "often" ... and I at least come close to being on board with you when you use the word "usually". But you did use the word "always" -- in fact, you put it in all caps, which is the same thing as screaming it -- and that was the crux of my objection.

Your comment that "Their dads didn't worry about how much they played them or how they treated them. Those guys were superstars, and such issues were completely irrelevant" just supports my argument. If you're the kid at the end of the bench just hoping to get 2 minutes of playing time at the end of a blow-out game and the coach appears not to care how much playing time he's giving to his kid – even if he's a super star – then there is a perception of a problem by some folks.

I would defy you to find any Ripon fan, Carthage fan, North Central fan, or UWSP fan who had any objection to the way that Bob Gillespie, Bosko Djurickovic, Todd Raridon, and Jack Bennett used their sons when they played for them.

As for the kid who gets nothing more than a two-minute garbage-time cameo once in awhile, if he has a problem with the coach it's sure as shooting a problem that centers upon the coach's perception of him, not of the coach's son. And the parent of said benchwarmer -- and let's be frank, it's often the parent who has the gripe and not the kid himself -- is likewise focused upon his own kid. The coach's kid getting all the playing time is merely an excuse to be wielded as part of the overall gripe.

In the case of super star players, however, I think it's MORE likely to be the opposite: the kid is pushed too hard (as perceived by some). It's not a scientific evaluation – it's the perception I worry about. Here's a quote by Steve Djurickovic after his freshmen year playing for his father at Carthage: ""This year was the first year I realized that he [dad] comes down on me just because he has to so it doesn't look like he's taking it easy on his son. And he wants to get the best out of me." This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about as explained by the son.

Yes, but you were stating this from the spectator's point of view:

Heck, as paradoxical as this may sound, half the time half of the spectators will think the coach is being too nice and the other half of the spectators think he's being too mean. 'Spectators' and 'nice' and 'mean' etc. are all 'general' terms.

Stevie D. wasn't a spectator. He was himself the player who was the focus of the whole issue.

John Gleich summed up very nicely what it was like to play alongside the superstar son of a head coach:

I played with Nick Bennett at UWSP under his dad Jack Bennett. Nick is UWSP's #3 scorer (3 points away from #2). Interestingly, I also played with Jason Kalsow, who's UWSP's #1 all time scorer. There wasn't any favoritism showed... in some respects, Jack held Nick to a higher standard, but it raised the level of the team too.

What spectators notice is success, not the ins and outs of player-coach relationships.

While looking this up, I also found an article about Steve scoring 28 points (playing well) but having ZERO assists. Not playing time, but related issues.

Boy, are you barking up the wrong tree with that insinuation. Steve Djurickovic is Carthage's all-time assists leader with 649 dimes dished out over his career. To put that into perspective, the next-closest assists leader in Carthage history, Stan Kapka (1983-86), had 357. Anybody who ever watched Stevie D. play will tell you that, in spite of his prolific scoring, he was an extremely unselfish player, sometimes to a fault. In the four games that he played against your Knights from 2008 thru 2011, he dished out 26 assists. Give me a point guard who successfully serves it up to his teammates 6.5 times a game any day of the week, and twice on Sundays!

I think most coaches would give Steve Djurickovic at least as many minutes as his father gave him (based on all the articles I just read about his ability). I'm not commenting on the Neil situation and now wish I hadn't contributed to it in the first place. I do wonder if non-parent coaches of Steve Djurickovic wouldn't have given him MORE minutes....

That would've been very hard to do. During his four-year stint as a Red Man, Stevie D. averaged 35.8, 37.0, 37.1, and 37.4 minutes per game. He led the CCIW in minutes per game three of his four seasons, and in a couple of those seasons he averaged about two whole minutes per game more than the next CCIW player on the list. On numerous occasions he played the full forty minutes -- particularly in his last season, during which Bosko frequently took the air out of the ball and had the Red Men stall for the first twenty seconds or so of every possession in order to conserve his son's energy.

The article I quoted from above noted that Bosco Djurickovic's other kids never wanted to have him as a coach, but Steve always did. I'm glad the relationship worked out at Carthage – which it clearly did, but the fact that it worked out so well doesn't mean that there still weren't some perception of biases involved with the father/coach – player/son relationship.

There really weren't, at least not among Carthage fans. Trust me on that. There wasn't a single Red Men fan anywhere in America who did anything but thank his or her lucky stars that Carthage had both Steve Djurickovic in uniform and Bosko Djurickovic stalking the sidelines in a loud pink tie and a suntan for four seasons.

[calvinite]

Wow! And I thought my post was long. I don't take issue with the points you are making and I think we are mostly in agreement. I would like to point out that the reference to 'zero assists' was NOT MY barking up the wrong tree -- that's what someone else wrote while I was researching Steve. I added it just as an FYI and NEVER intended to criticize him (while researching this, I became very aware of his ability). I bring it up now because you challenged me to find one fan critical of the situation. I don't know if the person writing the article was a fan or not.... I don't really know that it matters, and I'm certainly not going to spend time trying to do so.

I also said I regretted writing this before reading your post, and now I regret it even more. I do believe Matt Neil is doing a good job coaching (look at SAC's recent post on his stats compared with other Hope coaches), and I do believe any competent coach (which would certainly include Neil) does what's best for the team above any single player even if it's his own kid. He'd be foolish no to do so. I do think coaches can be lightening rods, and I do think playing time tends to be one of the more controversial issues. I didn't bring up this whole Neil situation, I just added an aside.

I already stated that the Carthage situation worked out very well -- we certainly don't disagree on that. I don't think there's any doubt, however, that the father-son relationship was on the minds of many folks including this particular coach and son. We know that because Steve reported it to be the case. That doesn't mean Steve should have played elsewhere or that it was bad or anything else. I believe it makes things tricky -- at least trickier than it already is, but you apparently don't think so. Other than this, I think we agree.

[almcguirejr]

Playing time is not always tricky and problematic, even in the case of the son of the head coach being on the team. Some coaches' kids are so good that the whole thing is a moot point. Steve Djurickovic of Carthage (2,547 points, #1 in Carthage history), Scott Gillespie of Ripon (1,871 points, #1 in Ripon history), and Derek Raridon of North Central (1,690 points, #2 in NCC history) all come to mind as examples from the last four years. Their dads didn't worry about how much they played them or how they treated them. Those guys were superstars, and such issues were completely irrelevant.

The issues with parent coaches goes well beyond playing time – playing time just seems to be the most volatile issues. I didn't say always – and should not have said 'always' if I did, but I stand by my point that there is USUALLY a PERCEPTION by SOME of a problem with a PARENT COACH  at SOME POINT being too hard OR giving breaks to their own child.

I have no problem with the qualifier used being "often" ... and I at least come close to being on board with you when you use the word "usually". But you did use the word "always" -- in fact, you put it in all caps, which is the same thing as screaming it -- and that was the crux of my objection.

Your comment that "Their dads didn't worry about how much they played them or how they treated them. Those guys were superstars, and such issues were completely irrelevant" just supports my argument. If you're the kid at the end of the bench just hoping to get 2 minutes of playing time at the end of a blow-out game and the coach appears not to care how much playing time he's giving to his kid – even if he's a super star – then there is a perception of a problem by some folks.

I would defy you to find any Ripon fan, Carthage fan, North Central fan, or UWSP fan who had any objection to the way that Bob Gillespie, Bosko Djurickovic, Todd Raridon, and Jack Bennett used their sons when they played for them.

As for the kid who gets nothing more than a two-minute garbage-time cameo once in awhile, if he has a problem with the coach it's sure as shooting a problem that centers upon the coach's perception of him, not of the coach's son. And the parent of said benchwarmer -- and let's be frank, it's often the parent who has the gripe and not the kid himself -- is likewise focused upon his own kid. The coach's kid getting all the playing time is merely an excuse to be wielded as part of the overall gripe.

In the case of super star players, however, I think it's MORE likely to be the opposite: the kid is pushed too hard (as perceived by some). It's not a scientific evaluation – it's the perception I worry about. Here's a quote by Steve Djurickovic after his freshmen year playing for his father at Carthage: ""This year was the first year I realized that he [dad] comes down on me just because he has to so it doesn't look like he's taking it easy on his son. And he wants to get the best out of me." This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about as explained by the son.

Yes, but you were stating this from the spectator's point of view:

Heck, as paradoxical as this may sound, half the time half of the spectators will think the coach is being too nice and the other half of the spectators think he's being too mean. 'Spectators' and 'nice' and 'mean' etc. are all 'general' terms.

Stevie D. wasn't a spectator. He was himself the player who was the focus of the whole issue.

John Gleich summed up very nicely what it was like to play alongside the superstar son of a head coach:

I played with Nick Bennett at UWSP under his dad Jack Bennett. Nick is UWSP's #3 scorer (3 points away from #2). Interestingly, I also played with Jason Kalsow, who's UWSP's #1 all time scorer. There wasn't any favoritism showed... in some respects, Jack held Nick to a higher standard, but it raised the level of the team too.

What spectators notice is success, not the ins and outs of player-coach relationships.

While looking this up, I also found an article about Steve scoring 28 points (playing well) but having ZERO assists. Not playing time, but related issues.

Boy, are you barking up the wrong tree with that insinuation. Steve Djurickovic is Carthage's all-time assists leader with 649 dimes dished out over his career. To put that into perspective, the next-closest assists leader in Carthage history, Stan Kapka (1983-86), had 357. Anybody who ever watched Stevie D. play will tell you that, in spite of his prolific scoring, he was an extremely unselfish player, sometimes to a fault. In the four games that he played against your Knights from 2008 thru 2011, he dished out 26 assists. Give me a point guard who successfully serves it up to his teammates 6.5 times a game any day of the week, and twice on Sundays!

I think most coaches would give Steve Djurickovic at least as many minutes as his father gave him (based on all the articles I just read about his ability). I'm not commenting on the Neil situation and now wish I hadn't contributed to it in the first place. I do wonder if non-parent coaches of Steve Djurickovic wouldn't have given him MORE minutes....

That would've been very hard to do. During his four-year stint as a Red Man, Stevie D. averaged 35.8, 37.0, 37.1, and 37.4 minutes per game. He led the CCIW in minutes per game three of his four seasons, and in a couple of those seasons he averaged about two whole minutes per game more than the next CCIW player on the list. On numerous occasions he played the full forty minutes -- particularly in his last season, during which Bosko frequently took the air out of the ball and had the Red Men stall for the first twenty seconds or so of every possession in order to conserve his son's energy.

The article I quoted from above noted that Bosco Djurickovic's other kids never wanted to have him as a coach, but Steve always did. I'm glad the relationship worked out at Carthage – which it clearly did, but the fact that it worked out so well doesn't mean that there still weren't some perception of biases involved with the father/coach – player/son relationship.

There really weren't, at least not among Carthage fans. Trust me on that. There wasn't a single Red Men fan anywhere in America who did anything but thank his or her lucky stars that Carthage had both Steve Djurickovic in uniform and Bosko Djurickovic stalking the sidelines in a loud pink tie and a suntan for four seasons.

Lighten up, Francis!

[Gregory Sager]

I also said I regretted writing this before reading your post, and now I regret it even more.

Lighten up, Francis!

[wiz]

I can't stand Hope College.  I don't like Matt Neil.  I don't know Grant Neil, but by association to the first two, I probably wouldn't care for him either.  However, I have always held that institutions and coaches are fair game on this site but it is probably best we don't say things that are directly derogatory toward the D3 student athletes.  As a strongly biased Calvin fan, I will respect Grant and any other D3 athlete.  D1 prima donnas are a different story.  I am comfortable with just admitting that Hope sucks, leaving Grant out of it, and moving on now to a new subject.
So, does anyone think a team, other than Calvin, has a shot at winning the league?

[wwjjdd]

Just an anecdote in regard to the coach/son relationship.   I am not posting this to take sides in the current discussion, just to note what a Hall of Fame coach felt on the issue.   I remember an interview with Al McGuire while he coached Marquette.  His son Allie was on the team and Al was asked by a reporter if this caused any problems as far as to who got the playing time.  Al responded that if all things were absolutely exactly equal between his son and another player as far as ability was concerned, as a father, he would definitely play his son over the other player.  And I believe Allie did start for Marquette his senior year.  Al McGuire was unconventional in his approach to the game and known for his candidness.  I just read another anecdote about Al McGuire, possibly urban legend.  " While with the NY Knicks, he once famously pleaded with this coach for playing time, with the guarantee:  'I can stop Cousy.'  Inserted into the lineup, McGuire proceeded to foul Cousy on his next six trips down the court." – Wikipedia .

[almcguirejr]

Just an anecdote in regard to the coach/son relationship.   I am not posting this to take sides in the current discussion, just to note what a Hall of Fame coach felt on the issue.   I remember an interview with Al McGuire while he coached Marquette.  His son Allie was on the team and Al was asked by a reporter if this caused any problems as far as to who got the playing time.  Al responded that if all things were absolutely exactly equal between his son and another player as far as ability was concerned, as a father, he would definitely play his son over the other player.  And I believe Allie did start for Marquette his senior year.  Al McGuire was unconventional in his approach to the game and known for his candidness.  I just read another anecdote about Al McGuire, possibly urban legend.  " While with the NY Knicks, he once famously pleaded with this coach for playing time, with the guarantee:  'I can stop Cousy.'  Inserted into the lineup, McGuire proceeded to foul Cousy on his next six trips down the court." – Wikipedia .

A picture of me on the cover of SI because my dad was coach.

[knightvision]

If I'm MN, it might simply come down to this:
Grant Neil not starting: Record 1-3 (1-4 if you include the exhibition with GVSU)
Grant Neil starting:  Record 9-3

And lest we rely too much on statistics/sabermetrics, there's more to decisions about lineups than just "the numbers":   http://www.freep.com/article/20140124/COL38/301240015/detroit-tigers-brad-ausmus-jeff-seidel

As an outside observer, I personally wouldn't be playing Grant that many minutes.  I also wouldn't subscribe to the KVS substitution system, I think "player x" should have way more minutes, I wouldn't even have "player y" in the rotation, and if you have any other questions, I'm sure that I would be able to provide a definitive answer about why my perspective is way better than yours  

One thing I know with absolute certainty:  As a parent, I can come up with a million reasons why my child should be playing way more, and why your child should be playing way less-- and that's without the coach having a kid on the team!  The spotlight almost certainly shines brighter on playing time decisions when the coach has a kid on the team--for the exact reason that most observers assume that coaches either consciously or unconsciously operate like the Al McGuire story wwjjdd noted where McGuire acknowledged--"my kid gets the benefit of the doubt". 

I suspect that I'm not the only one on this board that either:  a) Coached there kid in a sport; and/or b) Observed someone you know coach their child in a sport.  Personally, the blessing and joy of the experience was almost always tempered by having to balance what I thought was best for the success of the team while trying to remain aware of how my decisions could be interpreted by other parents.  And I don't think I'm particularly unique in this regard;  for every example of a parent/coach I can recall who got it all wrong, the vast majority handled it fairly and sensitively.  I don't know MN well, but my impression is that he falls within the latter category. 

With respect to the multitude of well stated perspectives on this topic, I'm more than a little curious:  is there a genuine sense among the Hope faithful that MN is playing his son because he's his son and not because he believes they are better when he's on the floor?  I'm aware that "he believes" is the key phrase in that sentence, but as sac has pointed out, it's pretty hard to argue with MN's results since he has taken over...

[KzooHornet]

I hope the game tomorrow doesn't get postponed.  I actually carved out some time tomorrow to sit down in front of my computer and watch the video feed from the K/Hope game....oh wait....

[KnightSlappy]

And lest we rely too much on statistics/sabermetrics, there's more to decisions about lineups than just "the numbers":   http://www.freep.com/article/20140124/COL38/301240015/detroit-tigers-brad-ausmus-jeff-seidel

In a shocking twist of events, I roundly disagree with this statement (unless we're talking about Little League where the only focuses should be fun and skill development).

I think we need to change our general definition of what "the numbers" are -- they shouldn't be reduced to what someone decided to print in a newspaper 50 years ago -- but a coach's decision for who to play always comes down to maximizing the club's win expectancy. Sometimes they're willing to trade fractions of current wins for future wins, but they're still maximizing wins.

We don't have good concrete numbers to attach to this, but a coach is constantly making estimates and revising those estimates (even if he wouldn't articulate it like that).

[sac]

I'm sure its very difficult to coach a team with your own son.  I'm gathering there aren't many Mike Griffin fans on this board?   My own personal opinion is Grant is playing because he can defend better than any other option and do so while staying out of foul trouble.


Looks like the MIAA has pushed back the starting times of a couple events today(none in men's basketball), its not great out there for travel but looks like we're a go for games today.

[sac]

Kalamazoo at Hope  3pm

Hope's remaining schedule can be divided into two segments.  The first begins today with 4 home games in the next 5 with a trip to Trine in the middle.  After that its finish the year with 3 of 4 on the road and a tricky home game with Alma.

Kzoo lineup
G  Carl Ghafari       5-9  Jr.
G  Mark Ghafari      6-0  Sr.
G  Grant Carey       6-3  Sr.
F  Chase Baysdell  6-6  Fr.
F  Adam Peters      6-3  Jr.
----------------------------------
G  Adam Dykema    6-3  Fr.
G  Josh Whitney     6-5  Fr.
G  Carter Goetz      6-5  Sr.
F  Aaron Shoenfeldt  6-4  Jr.
F  Josh Miller           6-8  Fr.

The only 3 starters they've been set on are the Ghafari's and Peters so the Hornets could go a lot of ways.  This is the lineup they've used the last 4 league games.  Either Goetz or Shoenfeldt could start to provide a taller lineup.

Kzoo likes an uptempo game and like Olivet will push the ball up the floor when possible.  Both they and their opponents shoot 46% from the floor.  Mark Ghafari and Adam Peters are the two main offensive threats and the offense will go through and off both of them.   In league play they've matured into a more well rounded team with Chase Baysdell and Adam Dykema seeing more scoring.



I won't be around to provide scores or anything after the games.  I'll be watching the future Big Ten Champions tonight.......I just don't know who it will be?