MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Roundball999]

Not even close to a West Michigander, never have been, and theological influences definitely don't influence my opinion on this

As I posted before, I also don't think this has anything to do with a being a moral issue.

It is my personal opinion that paying a D3 coach (any sport) a salary that is way out of line with other profs or administrators at a D3 college sends the wrong message about that college's priorities and is not well matched with the stated D3 philosophy. 

"So you feel it would be okay for some high roller Hope donor to set up an endowment to pay the new Hope coach any amount the donor chooses..."?  No, that is not at all what I said nor is it what happens with endowed positions at D3 schools.

Interestingly, IF Hope pays such a paltry coaches salary as has been mentioned here, I guess their success provides at least one data point to say that a highly paid coach is not a prerequisite for success on a D3 court.

[sac]

Summer questions
http://goalmascots.com/sports/mbkb/2014-15/releases/201406197ulv9j

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

What if someone wants to endow the coaching postition?

This actually does exist. I know one school where at least one of the assistant positions is endowed, giving them two full time assistants.

[HopeConvert]

As I posted before, I also don't think this has anything to do with a being a moral issue.

It is my personal opinion that paying a D3 coach (any sport) a salary that is way out of line with other profs or administrators at a D3 college sends the wrong message about that college's priorities and is not well matched with the stated D3 philosophy. 

I have difficulty squaring your first sentence with your second one.

[Roundball999]

As I posted before, I also don't think this has anything to do with a being a moral issue.

It is my personal opinion that paying a D3 coach (any sport) a salary that is way out of line with other profs or administrators at a D3 college sends the wrong message about that college's priorities and is not well matched with the stated D3 philosophy. 

I have difficulty squaring your first sentence with your second one.

I see no conflict at all.

Morals issues have to do with what is right and wrong in human behavior.

The coaches salary and D3 philosophy has absolutely nothing to do with right and wrong human behavior in my opinion.  It's about the tactical choices a D3 college makes to execute its strategy, that's all.  I simply think it would be a strategic mistake for D3 colleges to begin throwing exceptional money at coaches.  But it would not be "wrong" from a moralistic perspective; just a mistake.  In my opinion.

[oldknight]

As I posted before, I also don't think this has anything to do with a being a moral issue.

It is my personal opinion that paying a D3 coach (any sport) a salary that is way out of line with other profs or administrators at a D3 college sends the wrong message about that college's priorities and is not well matched with the stated D3 philosophy. 

I have difficulty squaring your first sentence with your second one.

I see no conflict at all.

Morals issues have to do with what is right and wrong in human behavior.

The coaches salary and D3 philosophy has absolutely nothing to do with right and wrong human behavior in my opinion.  It's about the tactical choices a D3 college makes to execute its strategy, that's all.  I simply think it would be a strategic mistake for D3 colleges to begin throwing exceptional money at coaches.  But it would not be "wrong" from a moralistic perspective; just a mistake.  In my opinion.

There's no denying it's your opinion whether to pay a d3 coach a salary well beyond that of professors at the school is a moral issue. But something tells me HopeConvert would consider your second sentence to be a self-refuting argument.

[NW Hope Fan]

Having been paid by Hope to coach, I made in two season what local HS coaches made in one. (And joyfully did this for 9 years)
If the D3 philosophy for student athletes is to play "for the love of the game", I think that probably applies to the philosophy of many D3 coaches. AND may be the reason why hiring a coach from the "Hope family" is a little easier, than luring someone from outside the community with "average" pay.

[Roundball999]

As I posted before, I also don't think this has anything to do with a being a moral issue.

It is my personal opinion that paying a D3 coach (any sport) a salary that is way out of line with other profs or administrators at a D3 college sends the wrong message about that college's priorities and is not well matched with the stated D3 philosophy. 

I have difficulty squaring your first sentence with your second one.

I see no conflict at all.

Morals issues have to do with what is right and wrong in human behavior.

The coaches salary and D3 philosophy has absolutely nothing to do with right and wrong human behavior in my opinion.  It's about the tactical choices a D3 college makes to execute its strategy, that's all.  I simply think it would be a strategic mistake for D3 colleges to begin throwing exceptional money at coaches.  But it would not be "wrong" from a moralistic perspective; just a mistake.  In my opinion.

There's no denying it's your opinion whether to pay a d3 coach a salary well beyond that of professors at the school is a moral issue. But something tells me HopeConvert would consider your second sentence to be a self-refuting argument.

I'm curious why you would say that?  Please point out what I have written that would support that interpretation - because it really isn't the way I feel.

[HopeConvert]

As I posted before, I also don't think this has anything to do with a being a moral issue.

It is my personal opinion that paying a D3 coach (any sport) a salary that is way out of line with other profs or administrators at a D3 college sends the wrong message about that college's priorities and is not well matched with the stated D3 philosophy. 

I have difficulty squaring your first sentence with your second one.

I see no conflict at all.

Morals issues have to do with what is right and wrong in human behavior.

The coaches salary and D3 philosophy has absolutely nothing to do with right and wrong human behavior in my opinion.  It's about the tactical choices a D3 college makes to execute its strategy, that's all.  I simply think it would be a strategic mistake for D3 colleges to begin throwing exceptional money at coaches.  But it would not be "wrong" from a moralistic perspective; just a mistake.  In my opinion.

There's no denying it's your opinion whether to pay a d3 coach a salary well beyond that of professors at the school is a moral issue. But something tells me HopeConvert would consider your second sentence to be a self-refuting argument.

I'm curious why you would say that?  Please point out what I have written that would support that interpretation - because it really isn't the way I feel.

You said it sends "the wrong message," which is to say it is about right and wrong.

Obviously when we are talking about labor markets we have to discuss the quantity of labor supplied and the quantity of labor demanded and equilibrium points and so forth. But most persons who are not professional economists will still feel obliged to make moral judgments about these matters. Or else we would never have conversations about minimum wages, for example. The idea that economic decisions can be divorced from moral, and ultimately theological, considerations is part of the Great Transformation Karl Polanyi discusses in his book of the same title, which I'd recommend. But not even Adam Smith believed that moral judgments had no role to play in economic thinking.

When you've made the claim that markets alone determine labor value, you are making, in this instance, more than a descriptive statement, you are also making a normative one, and thus making a statement not only about how things are, but how you believe they ought to be. "Ought" is, in its nature, a moral claim.

[SBell]

Sorry, I likely cannot help...its been posted repeatedly that I know nothing, even "nothing about basketball"...although I can report that it is one person's to lose...if he turns it down, due to a pay cut of a high school teacher/coach or a variety of other reasons~ uprooting family, immense pressure/support from community, etc....and this may or may not be speculation   Commence Karma slaying...............NOW,  It IS rumor that GVW will join staff as a part time assistant

Everything I heard at "Izzo Shootout" today from MIAA coaches and Lansing area high school coaches, confirm this.

[Roundball999]

As I posted before, I also don't think this has anything to do with a being a moral issue.

It is my personal opinion that paying a D3 coach (any sport) a salary that is way out of line with other profs or administrators at a D3 college sends the wrong message about that college's priorities and is not well matched with the stated D3 philosophy. 

I have difficulty squaring your first sentence with your second one.

I see no conflict at all.

Morals issues have to do with what is right and wrong in human behavior.

The coaches salary and D3 philosophy has absolutely nothing to do with right and wrong human behavior in my opinion.  It's about the tactical choices a D3 college makes to execute its strategy, that's all.  I simply think it would be a strategic mistake for D3 colleges to begin throwing exceptional money at coaches.  But it would not be "wrong" from a moralistic perspective; just a mistake.  In my opinion.

There's no denying it's your opinion whether to pay a d3 coach a salary well beyond that of professors at the school is a moral issue. But something tells me HopeConvert would consider your second sentence to be a self-refuting argument.

I'm curious why you would say that?  Please point out what I have written that would support that interpretation - because it really isn't the way I feel.

You said it sends "the wrong message," which is to say it is about right and wrong.

Obviously when we are talking about labor markets we have to discuss the quantity of labor supplied and the quantity of labor demanded and equilibrium points and so forth. But most persons who are not professional economists will still feel obliged to make moral judgments about these matters. Or else we would never have conversations about minimum wages, for example. The idea that economic decisions can be divorced from moral, and ultimately theological, considerations is part of the Great Transformation Karl Polanyi discusses in his book of the same title, which I'd recommend. But not even Adam Smith believed that moral judgments had no role to play in economic thinking.

When you've made the claim that markets alone determine labor value, you are making, in this instance, more than a descriptive statement, you are also making a normative one, and thus making a statement not only about how things are, but how you believe they ought to be. "Ought" is, in its nature, a moral claim.

When I said "wrong message" it was about successful execution of a D3 college's vision, not a moral judgment (at least for me).  The "wrong message" would be that the college values athletics more than academics, which I believe would eventually have repercussions with faculty and faculty senates, perceptions of potential student applications, and other stakeholders - making it harder to achieve the college's mission.  Like a business decision to enter a market segment where the business is ultimately poorly positioned to succeed; nothing really moral about it, just a tactical error.

As I said in another post, I have no issue with coaches making big money as they do in many colleges that have elected to field D1 athletics programs.  "Ought" is in no way a moral claim here, it is simply about what is the best way to achieve the college's desired strategic outcome.  Unless of course you believe EVERY decision has a moral basis, I can buy that, but then the implication made here that my thinking on this particular issue is somehow driven more by moral considerations than other decisions is wrong.

[HopeConvert]

Sorry, I likely cannot help...its been posted repeatedly that I know nothing, even "nothing about basketball"...although I can report that it is one person's to lose...if he turns it down, due to a pay cut of a high school teacher/coach or a variety of other reasons~ uprooting family, immense pressure/support from community, etc....and this may or may not be speculation   Commence Karma slaying...............NOW,  It IS rumor that GVW will join staff as a part time assistant

Everything I heard at "Izzo Shootout" today from MIAA coaches and Lansing area high school coaches, confirm this.

Confirms both claims?

[SBell]

Sorry, I likely cannot help...its been posted repeatedly that I know nothing, even "nothing about basketball"...although I can report that it is one person's to lose...if he turns it down, due to a pay cut of a high school teacher/coach or a variety of other reasons~ uprooting family, immense pressure/support from community, etc....and this may or may not be speculation   Commence Karma slaying...............NOW,  It IS rumor that GVW will join staff as a part time assistant

Everything I heard at "Izzo Shootout" today from MIAA coaches and Lansing area high school coaches, confirm this.

Confirms both claims?

The one about who the next coach will be. But since Hope doesn't have a paid assistant -- Olivet, for instance, does -- which has left some would-be candidates in disbelief, they might have to have a retried volunteer assistant.

[realist]

Is the issue "paid" part time assistant or is it "full time" assistant?
I can picture some college assistants volunteering (working for free) and I don't understand why a coach would have a problem with that if the person is capable, and does what the coach wants.
It is my guess if Olivet has a "full time" assistant that this person fills other roles on the campus in addition to basketball assignments.

[formerd3db]

Mr. Ypsi, sac, gohope and FDF:

Good discussion on the bb attendance topic.  At the same time, as you all know, it is rather satisfying that Hope still outdraws some of the DI schools for attendance at single basketball games, including Western Michigan and Eastern Michigan (there are some other schools on occasion such as some in the Horizon League, etc.).  The latter isn't a surprise to Mr. Ypsi I'm sure!

On the other topic i.e. the bb coach selection process at Hope, including the salary issues and vs. professors, I'm staying out of that one regardless of what I know (and/or may not know ).   Nonetheless, it will be interesting to see who ends up being selected (and accepting) the position for sure.