MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

For anyone who was wondering, Hope's staff is set

Tom Davelaar, Jeff Carlson, Chad Carlson,
Mike Aldrich and Craig Kopas will be assistants. 

I assume Mike Aldrich will coach JV's again.  Not sure what role or how much Chad Carlson and Craig Kopas will contribute, but there they are.

[HOPEful]

The easiest way to avoid this would have been for the men to use the women's schedule and play men in one location, women in the other, byes on the St. Mary's dates...

If the Wed thing doesn't work or isn't satisfactory, it might be time to look into Tuesday or Thursday games to avoid the double-header issues.  I don't think Saturday double-headers are much of an issue since you can spread the game times out much more broadly...

Isn't bringing St. Mary's into the league on the women's side is what created all these problems? ... And when that happens the JV and varsity teams may be unable to travel together, thus driving up costs and camaraderie within the whole program (whether men's or women's).

Perhaps time to revisit the St. Mary's addition to the league . . . or to seek a men's-only program to balance St. Mary's?  Isn't that a way both to affirm gender equity (I've been uncomfortable with women's teams generally playing in the jv spot) and to reaffirm jv sports and  maximize fan participation and revenue?  Moreover, for fans the former mirror-image men's and women's schedules gave us a home game (men's or women's) every Wednesday and Saturday.  I much prefer that to two home games on some days, and none on others.

Perhaps the "problem" isn't St. Mary's or Wednesday double headers, but confused prioritization of the fans vs. the institution. As a Hope fan, it will be a little more difficult getting to Grand Rapids in time for a 6 PM tip off. But does a 6 PM Wednesday night game every 4 years really amount to a "problem"? Who's the priority? The season ticket holders that pay $80 a year or the students that pay five figures?

Personally, I love the way Hope has scheduled double-headers the past few seasons and know that the teams have enjoyed them as well. Last season, the girls played Olivet before the guy's played Kalamazoo. They advertised both games as an Oranje out and even sold t-shirts.  If the teams always played on the same nights but on different campuses, I believe both of their average attendance numbers would decrease. (Admittedly, I would most likely never attend a women's game)

Hope averaged 36 more fans at their women's games this past season than Calvin did at their men's. Furthermore, I believe Calvin's women average only a few hundred less fans per game than their men.

As a final side note, last season when Hope was chosen to as a playoff host, the complaint I heard even more often than, "Wheaton was more deserving!" was that "The girls should be hosting! Not the boys!"

[KnightSlappy]

As a final side note, last season when Hope was chosen to as a playoff host, the complaint I heard even more often than, "Wheaton was more deserving!" was that "The girls should be hosting! Not the boys!"

And then, in hindsight, the complaint became that Hope should have had their men's team host the game.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Perhaps the "problem" isn't St. Mary's or Wednesday double headers, but confused prioritization of the fans vs. the institution. As a Hope fan, it will be a little more difficult getting to Grand Rapids in time for a 6 PM tip off. But does a 6 PM Wednesday night game every 4 years really amount to a "problem"? Who's the priority? The season ticket holders that pay $80 a year or the students that pay five figures?

I think it's every 2 years actually (which might "stick in the craw" of some people).  Since the schedule is on a 2 year rotation (Calvin will host the Wed night Rivalry game this year, Hope will host it next year, and so on...) and the "who plays first, men or women" is also on a 2 year rotation, that means that every time it's Hope @ Calvin on a Wed night, it's going to be at 6pm. 

Personally, I love the way Hope has scheduled double-headers the past few seasons and know that the teams have enjoyed them as well. Last season, the girls played Olivet before the guy's played Kalamazoo. They advertised both games as an Oranje out and even sold t-shirts.  If the teams always played on the same nights but on different campuses, I believe both of their average attendance numbers would decrease. (Admittedly, I would most likely never attend a women's game).

Couple of items here (with apologies if I am coming across as argumentative, but I don't share your opinion).  You say the teams have enjoyed them - I'm not so sure about that.  I know the teams are both disappointed when they don't get to see their JV teams play.  And that makes sense, given the amount of time the JV and Varsity spend together in practice, etc.  I know for a fact there are players who have gone to the Dow Center to watch their JV play instead of watching the game going on at De Vos.

You mention the Oranje out - I have the shirt too and liked the idea.  But ask yourself why did they do that - make a special shirt, promote it as a special time.  Those kind of things are typically done to try to drive an increase in attendance.  Food for thought.

And you suggest that the average attendance for both would shrink if they played on different nights.  Not so sure about that.  I suspect that who ever plays the first game of the double-header(especially on a Wed night) will see a decrease in attendance, while the 2nd game gets a boost.  No real data to evaluate yet (although I am looking to compare attendance stats of double-header vs NON double-header games).

Lastly, I think this sentiment is shared by many fans:

Moreover, for fans the former mirror-image men's and women's schedules gave us a home game (men's or women's) every Wednesday and Saturday.  I much prefer that to two home games on some days, and none on others.

[HOPEful]

I think it's every 2 years actually (which might "stick in the craw" of some people).  Since the schedule is on a 2 year rotation (Calvin will host the Wed night Rivalry game this year, Hope will host it next year, and so on...) and the "who plays first, men or women" is also on a 2 year rotation, that means that every time it's Hope @ Calvin on a Wed night, it's going to be at 6pm. 

If we are assuming that the schedule will forever follow the Wednesday night game @ Calvin will have the girls play first and that we will see every other year schedule switches, then I guess you are correct. I was thinking somewhat selfishly, only worrying about the Calvin Wednesday night game (for driving purposes) and was making an assumption that the school would get the guy/girl thing evened out over time...

I know for a fact there are players who have gone to the Dow Center to watch their JV play instead of watching the game going on at De Vos.

Once again, we're talking about 1 game. Not a season's worth. I can understand wanting to watch your JV friends and making the sweeping claim that the team like it might have been unfair. But I don't think it is fair to claim that as a whole, teams don't like it either. It's probably more accurate to say that many players have enjoyed it. Some many not have.

You mention the Oranje out - I have the shirt too and liked the idea.  But ask yourself why did they do that - make a special shirt, promote it as a special time.  Those kind of things are typically done to try to drive an increase in attendance.  Food for thought.

I hold firm to this being great marketing and hope to see more of it. Yes it was done to drive an increase in attendance. I don't understand why this is a bad thing. I'm guessing Kalamazoo and Olivet were chosen last year for good reason. Kalamazoo was coming off of an 8-17 year. Olivet finished third, behind Hope and Calvin, the year before and was returning their best players. The guys maybe gained a few fans that may have chosen to either stay home or make the 100 minute trek to Olivet. The girls certainly gained some viewers, especially for the second half. Both teams get a little extra marketing and hype.

And you suggest that the average attendance for both would shrink if they played on different nights.  Not so sure about that...

On second thought, my guess is there is little change either way...

Overall, I like it for 1 or 2 games from a marketing/hype standpoint. I think that the teams can sacrifice being able to watch their JV team for one game for the opportunity. I would be inclined to change that opinion if it were to become every other game. But looking at Hope's schedule for this coming season, every home Wednesday night game is at 7:30 except UWWW which is at 7. For Calvin, they play Alma and Hope at 6. But the Alma game is the first day of Interim and I'm guessing will be poorly attended regardless of what time the game is played.

In the future, it would be nice if special consideration were taken for "The Rivalry" game, but I support the effort to make game times "equal" if the current structure is perceived to not be.

[Gregory Sager]

The CCIW went to the men-and-women-in-opposite-gyms concept for Wednesday night games a couple of years ago, and it has worked out very well. It's tough for me personally, because I can't follow the men's team on the road on Wednesday nights anymore, given that I have to be at NPU broadcasting the women's game. But that's a small price to pay, and the reality is that I'm one of a very small handful of people who actually follow both teams at NPU. And I don't think that the other seven CCIW schools have a tremendous amount of overlap in terms of men's fans and women's fans, either. Besides, the CCIW's men's and women's teams frequently travel/host together on Saturdays.

It does interfere with JV schedules, but not every CCIW program has a JV team every year. Sometimes injuries or an already-thin roster prevents a program from fielding a junior varsity, or mid-season attrition forces the program to cancel JV games in the latter part of the season. The CCIW's JV teams typically play on Mondays or Tuesdays or whatever now, rather than preceding the varsity men's games. There hasn't been a lot of hue-and-cry about it, because CCIW JV games simply don't draw big crowds.

Since the subject of the gender imbalance (and the scheduling hash created as a result) caused by the inclusion of St. Mary's in the MIAA came up, this is a good time for me to ask a question that's always been in the back of my mind: Did the MIAA ever explore the idea of wooing Wabash into the league in order to have a men's school to balance out the all-women St. Mary's? Yesterday, pointlem speculated that the league should seek a men's school for this reason. Well, the only men's school that's anywhere close to MIAA territory is Wabash. The only other men's schools in D3 are Hampden-Sydney and St. John's, and it's hardly feasible to have an MIAA member that's located in Virginia or Minnesota.

Who's the priority? The season ticket holders that pay $80 a year or the students that pay five figures?

Exactly. D3's mission is explicitly tailored to cater to the needs and interests of the student-athlete. D3 sports are supposed to make the experience of the athletes their paramount concern. Now, I'm not saying that Hope fans don't get this, because I think that most of them do. But Hope's in a unique situation by virtue of the school's men's basketball program having such a large and dedicated fan base. The idea that ticket revenue should be a factor in scheduling is a pretty alien concept around D3, because ticket revenue simply isn't that substantial at the vast majority of D3 schools. Heck, some D3 schools don't even charge admission. If I want to watch a game at Dominican, for example, I just walk in the open door of the Igini Sports Forum and find a seat.

[KzooHornet]

The easiest way to avoid this would have been for the men to use the women's schedule and play men in one location, women in the other, byes on the St. Mary's dates.  The men's side of the MIAA reportedly shot that down, mostly because of having to start games in December.

The hardest part about mirroring the women's schedule is that it would not just be two byes for when the women play St. Mary's, but also two more byes because the women have 9 teams on their side of the league.  There would be some instances where a team could have 3 byes in Jan/Feb and need to make up those dates somehow to get in 25 contests.   The only options would be to pack more non-conference games in December, now squeezing those in around conference games and exams, or to try to find other opponents with open dates in Jan/Feb.  You may be able to find some games against teams who are not in a league, but how much do you really want to play those games anyway?

Tuesday/Thursday was always a good option to me, but it can be challenging for schools with only 1 gym in that it makes it difficult for the one gender to practice on the days the other gender has games.  The solution to that would be to not play JV those nights so there is adequate practice time, but that would lead me to just want to keep the doubleheaders.

[pointlem]

The CCIW went to the men-and-women-in-opposite-gyms concept for Wednesday night games a couple of years ago, and it has worked out very well. It's tough for me personally, because I can't follow the men's team on the road on Wednesday nights anymore, given that I have to be at NPU broadcasting the women's game. But that's a small price to pay, and the reality is that I'm one of a very small handful of people who actually follow both teams at NPU. And I don't think that the other seven CCIW schools have a tremendous amount of overlap in terms of men's fans and women's fans, either. Besides, the CCIW's men's and women's teams frequently travel/host together on Saturdays.

It does interfere with JV schedules, but not every CCIW program has a JV team every year. Sometimes injuries or an already-thin roster prevents a program from fielding a junior varsity, or mid-season attrition forces the program to cancel JV games in the latter part of the season. The CCIW's JV teams typically play on Mondays or Tuesdays or whatever now, rather than preceding the varsity men's games. There hasn't been a lot of hue-and-cry about it, because CCIW JV games simply don't draw big crowds.

Since the subject of the gender imbalance (and the scheduling hash created as a result) caused by the inclusion of St. Mary's in the MIAA came up, this is a good time for me to ask a question that's always been in the back of my mind: Did the MIAA ever explore the idea of wooing Wabash into the league in order to have a men's school to balance out the all-women St. Mary's? Yesterday, pointlem speculated that the league should seek a men's school for this reason. Well, the only men's school that's anywhere close to MIAA territory is Wabash. The only other men's schools in D3 are Hampden-Sydney and St. John's, and it's hardly feasible to have an MIAA member that's located in Virginia or Minnesota.

Who's the priority? The season ticket holders that pay $80 a year or the students that pay five figures?

Exactly. D3's mission is explicitly tailored to cater to the needs and interests of the student-athlete. D3 sports are supposed to make the experience of the athletes their paramount concern. Now, I'm not saying that Hope fans don't get this, because I think that most of them do. But Hope's in a unique situation by virtue of the school's men's basketball program having such a large and dedicated fan base. The idea that ticket revenue should be a factor in scheduling is a pretty alien concept around D3, because ticket revenue simply isn't that substantial at the vast majority of D3 schools. Heck, some D3 schools don't even charge admission. If I want to watch a game at Dominican, for example, I just walk in the open door of the Igini Sports Forum and find a seat.

Good observations, as always, Greg.  The big mistake, methinks, was messing up the scheduling by adding St. Mary's.  I wish there were a way to undo that . . . and also to restore the MIAA to the Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association. Surely on a snowy Wednesday night, with Alma or St. Mary's facing a 3 hour late night drive home, either of them might wish that St. Mary's was in an Indiana league.

[HopeConvert]

The rule of equity requires treating alike cases in the same or a similar manner. To insist the scheduling issue is required by equity is to beg the question.

[Gregory Sager]

Good observations, as always, Greg.  The big mistake, methinks, was messing up the scheduling by adding St. Mary's.  I wish there were a way to undo that . . . and also to restore the MIAA to the Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association. Surely on a snowy Wednesday night, with Alma or St. Mary's facing a 3 hour late night drive home, either of them might wish that St. Mary's was in an Indiana league.

You're forgetting Trine, though, which is also an Indiana-based school.

[pointlem]

Good observations, as always, Greg.  The big mistake, methinks, was messing up the scheduling by adding St. Mary's.  I wish there were a way to undo that . . . and also to restore the MIAA to the Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association. Surely on a snowy Wednesday night, with Alma or St. Mary's facing a 3 hour late night drive home, either of them might wish that St. Mary's was in an Indiana league.

You're forgetting Trine, though, which is also an Indiana-based school.

Mea culpa

[sac]

2014/15 will be the St. Mary's Belles 18th year as a member of the MIAA.  Time flies.

I know I've harped on it quite a lot over the years, but those Indiana schools are a long way away.  St. Mary's longest drive in the MIAA is Alma at 206 miles, second longest is Adrian at 145.   Everyone else is under 125.  In the HCAC they'd have 9 drives of 125 or more, including 5 the same or longer than the drive to Alma.   I think they're quite happy with their MIAA travel distance.



The scheduling kerfluffles and idea's that everything needs to be equal (tournaments etc) across all sports is a relatively new idea.  We seem to have done just fine beforehand. 

[KnightSlappy]

2014/15 will be the St. Mary's Belles 18th year as a member of the MIAA.  Time flies.

I know I've harped on it quite a lot over the years, but those Indiana schools are a long way away.  St. Mary's longest drive in the MIAA is Alma at 206 miles, second longest is Adrian at 145.   Everyone else is under 125.  In the HCAC they'd have 9 drives of 125 or more, including 5 the same or longer than the drive to Alma.   I think they're quite happy with their MIAA travel distance.



The scheduling kerfluffles and idea's that everything needs to be equal (tournaments etc) across all sports is a relatively new idea.  We seem to have done just fine beforehand. 

It's also interesting that St. Mary's has a shorter average distance to the rest of the league than does Alma.

[HOPEful]

It's also interesting that St. Mary's has a shorter average distance to the rest of the league than does Alma.

From Holland, I'll take the 1.5 hour drive to Notre Dame, IN over the 2.5 hour drive to Adrian, MI any day.

[HOPEful]

The easiest way to avoid this would have been for the men to use the women's schedule and play men in one location, women in the other, byes on the St. Mary's dates.  The men's side of the MIAA reportedly shot that down, mostly because of having to start games in December.

Why can't this apply to just the Wednesday games, since that is the only day there seems to be an issue?

I'll use Hope as an example and set the Wednesday schedules for the women first, and build the rest of the schedules from there... A simple flip flop of the Kalamazoo and Calvin games would keep the rivalry games from happening simultaneously. Hope's schedule could look like below, with Wednesday games in bold and the men's game in parenthesis. Since Hope is scheduled to play OWU on December 3rd, both that day and the St. Mary's game could be used to finagle (create a double header, not play in December, move a rivalry to a better time,...)

Dec. ? – Adrian
Dec. ? –Kzoo
Jan. 7 – Albion (Albion)
Jan. 10 – Olivet (Olivet)
Jan. 14 – Alma (Alma)
Jan. 17 – St. Mary's (Adrian)
Jan. 21 – Calvin (Kzoo)
Jan. 24 – Trine (Trine)
Jan. 28 – Kzoo (Calvin)
Jan. 31 – Adrian (Alma)
Feb. 4 – Olivet (Olivet)
Feb. 7 – Albion (Albion)
Feb. 11 – St. Mary's (Adrian)
Feb. 14 – Alma (Calvin)
Feb. 18 – Trine (Trine)
Feb. 21 – Calvin (Kzoo)