MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[HopeConvert]

---Speaking of Sam, he deserved a 'T' or even two tonight.  I didn't mind the constant griping at officials, it meant he wasn't coaching his team.  I think he was working hard for a T in the middle of the 2nd half

For as unrelenting and vociferous as he was in complaining, I, too, thought the refs showed remarkable patience.  And then at the games end he--seemingly still mad--left the floor without seeming to say a word to anyone . . . just quickly brushing hands down the line and then outta there.  No sportsmanship award there tonight . . . but perhaps just a bad night for a good guy.

And yes to your tweet, Sac . . . sad to see such minimal student support this year for Hope men's and women's BB.  Thankfully, the community support continues to be excellent

You can move to Alma, but the Calvin in you never leaves. 

Sounds like a repeat performance from his hissy fits when they played at Calvin a couple weeks ago.  The temper tantrums were one thing, but I'd have been more inclined to T him up because he was pretty much at half court on multiple occasions, and there were numerous times when he was 5-10 feet onto the court when play was at the other end in the second half.  Love the enthusiasm, but IMHO he's way past that, and I entirely agree with HC--this is embarrassing to him.   I'm not a big fan of quick or reactive T's by officials, but I'd calmly tell him the coaching box line is there for a reason, and the next time he blatantly disregards it, he's going to get one--whether he wants one or not.  Perhaps last night the officials were rightfully patient/tolerant, but at Calvin I was disappointed they didn't address it.   

sac, with regard to where he acquired his penchant for such behavior, would you be more inclined to give Douma or KVS the credit for the training?  To fully understand how he got here, though, it's probably unfair not to include his ability to learn from GVW and roaming onto the floor during play.  He clearly has some room for improvement in perfecting his craft and actually reaching out and touching someone, but I have to give him credit for getting out onto the floor at VNA--his ability to get way out there even though there weren't Calvin fans flush against the court forcing him to roam from the bench was pretty incredible   

+k

At one point last night he was inside the 3-point arc, and closer to the top than the bottom of it.

Suing a school because the women don't play on as nice a course. Now that would be an interesting lawsuit. It's not as if The Ravines is Winding Creek, however.

[knightvision]

---Speaking of Sam, he deserved a 'T' or even two tonight.  I didn't mind the constant griping at officials, it meant he wasn't coaching his team.  I think he was working hard for a T in the middle of the 2nd half

For as unrelenting and vociferous as he was in complaining, I, too, thought the refs showed remarkable patience.  And then at the games end he--seemingly still mad--left the floor without seeming to say a word to anyone . . . just quickly brushing hands down the line and then outta there.  No sportsmanship award there tonight . . . but perhaps just a bad night for a good guy.

And yes to your tweet, Sac . . . sad to see such minimal student support this year for Hope men's and women's BB.  Thankfully, the community support continues to be excellent

You can move to Alma, but the Calvin in you never leaves. 

Sounds like a repeat performance from his hissy fits when they played at Calvin a couple weeks ago.  The temper tantrums were one thing, but I'd have been more inclined to T him up because he was pretty much at half court on multiple occasions, and there were numerous times when he was 5-10 feet onto the court when play was at the other end in the second half.  Love the enthusiasm, but IMHO he's way past that, and I entirely agree with HC--this is embarrassing to him.   I'm not a big fan of quick or reactive T's by officials, but I'd calmly tell him the coaching box line is there for a reason, and the next time he blatantly disregards it, he's going to get one--whether he wants one or not.  Perhaps last night the officials were rightfully patient/tolerant, but at Calvin I was disappointed they didn't address it.   

sac, with regard to where he acquired his penchant for such behavior, would you be more inclined to give Douma or KVS the credit for the training?  To fully understand how he got here, though, it's probably unfair not to include his ability to learn from GVW and roaming onto the floor during play.  He clearly has some room for improvement in perfecting his craft and actually reaching out and touching someone, but I have to give him credit for getting out onto the floor at VNA--his ability to get way out there even though there weren't Calvin fans flush against the court forcing him to roam from the bench was pretty incredible   

+k

At one point last night he was inside the 3-point arc, and closer to the top than the bottom of it.

Suing a school because the women don't play on as nice a course. Now that would be an interesting lawsuit. It's not as if The Ravines is Winding Creek, however.

I'm having a hard time believing that Sam would ever be found inside the arc.

Agreed- The Ravines isn't Winding Creek, but it's not Wusky either.  For entertainment purposes, I might also include Wuskowhan in the lawsuit just to have the opportunity to have OK share with me the response he received from Mr. Postma.  It would be more than worth OK's exorbitant fees...

[sac]

---Speaking of Sam, he deserved a 'T' or even two tonight.  I didn't mind the constant griping at officials, it meant he wasn't coaching his team.  I think he was working hard for a T in the middle of the 2nd half

For as unrelenting and vociferous as he was in complaining, I, too, thought the refs showed remarkable patience.  And then at the games end he--seemingly still mad--left the floor without seeming to say a word to anyone . . . just quickly brushing hands down the line and then outta there.  No sportsmanship award there tonight . . . but perhaps just a bad night for a good guy.

And yes to your tweet, Sac . . . sad to see such minimal student support this year for Hope men's and women's BB.  Thankfully, the community support continues to be excellent

You can move to Alma, but the Calvin in you never leaves. 

Sounds like a repeat performance from his hissy fits when they played at Calvin a couple weeks ago.  The temper tantrums were one thing, but I'd have been more inclined to T him up because he was pretty much at half court on multiple occasions, and there were numerous times when he was 5-10 feet onto the court when play was at the other end in the second half.  Love the enthusiasm, but IMHO he's way past that, and I entirely agree with HC--this is embarrassing to him.   I'm not a big fan of quick or reactive T's by officials, but I'd calmly tell him the coaching box line is there for a reason, and the next time he blatantly disregards it, he's going to get one--whether he wants one or not.  Perhaps last night the officials were rightfully patient/tolerant, but at Calvin I was disappointed they didn't address it.   

sac, with regard to where he acquired his penchant for such behavior, would you be more inclined to give Douma or KVS the credit for the training?  To fully understand how he got here, though, it's probably unfair not to include his ability to learn from GVW and roaming onto the floor during play.  He clearly has some room for improvement in perfecting his craft and actually reaching out and touching someone, but I have to give him credit for getting out onto the floor at VNA--his ability to get way out there even though there weren't Calvin fans flush against the court forcing him to roam from the bench was pretty incredible   

I only really meant his competitive desire to beat Hope.


I don't want people to get the wrong idea that Hargraves was a madman, he was passionate and very dialed in to the game, but I thought some of his complaints were over the top and bordering on showing up the officials ( his WWF moves included).  I also thought he was intentionally trying to get a T to fire up his team, and to the officials credit they understood that situation as well.

[sac]

Its worth noting Jason Beckman wore socks with snowmen on them last night.

[sac]

Eidson's half court shot  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHgDFBWyhVE&feature=youtu.be


Hargraves was open, just not enough time to get him the ball.

[Civic Minded]

ICYMI -- Eidson's half-court buzzer beater:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHgDFBWyhVE&feature=youtu.be

Ah, dammit sac, you just beat me. 

[KnightSlappy]

Hargraves was open, just not enough time to get him the ball.

I've always wondered what would happen if a player more or less purposely ran over a coach who was on the floor. Like if, in the above play, Carlson plowed into Hargraves instead of running to the opposite corner. They'd have to T up Hargraves for being on the floor, no?

[HopeConvert]

Hargraves was open, just not enough time to get him the ball.

I've always wondered what would happen if a player more or less purposely ran over a coach who was on the floor. Like if, in the above play, Carlson plowed into Hargraves instead of running to the opposite corner. They'd have to T up Hargraves for being on the floor, no?

Del Harris got T'd when it happened to him.

I would instruct my players to run into the coach if he's on the floor.

[oldknight]

---Speaking of Sam, he deserved a 'T' or even two tonight.  I didn't mind the constant griping at officials, it meant he wasn't coaching his team.  I think he was working hard for a T in the middle of the 2nd half

For as unrelenting and vociferous as he was in complaining, I, too, thought the refs showed remarkable patience.  And then at the games end he--seemingly still mad--left the floor without seeming to say a word to anyone . . . just quickly brushing hands down the line and then outta there.  No sportsmanship award there tonight . . . but perhaps just a bad night for a good guy.

And yes to your tweet, Sac . . . sad to see such minimal student support this year for Hope men's and women's BB.  Thankfully, the community support continues to be excellent

You can move to Alma, but the Calvin in you never leaves. 

Sounds like a repeat performance from his hissy fits when they played at Calvin a couple weeks ago.  The temper tantrums were one thing, but I'd have been more inclined to T him up because he was pretty much at half court on multiple occasions, and there were numerous times when he was 5-10 feet onto the court when play was at the other end in the second half.  Love the enthusiasm, but IMHO he's way past that, and I entirely agree with HC--this is embarrassing to him.   I'm not a big fan of quick or reactive T's by officials, but I'd calmly tell him the coaching box line is there for a reason, and the next time he blatantly disregards it, he's going to get one--whether he wants one or not.  Perhaps last night the officials were rightfully patient/tolerant, but at Calvin I was disappointed they didn't address it.   

sac, with regard to where he acquired his penchant for such behavior, would you be more inclined to give Douma or KVS the credit for the training?  To fully understand how he got here, though, it's probably unfair not to include his ability to learn from GVW and roaming onto the floor during play.  He clearly has some room for improvement in perfecting his craft and actually reaching out and touching someone, but I have to give him credit for getting out onto the floor at VNA--his ability to get way out there even though there weren't Calvin fans flush against the court forcing him to roam from the bench was pretty incredible   

+k

At one point last night he was inside the 3-point arc, and closer to the top than the bottom of it.

Suing a school because the women don't play on as nice a course. Now that would be an interesting lawsuit. It's not as if The Ravines is Winding Creek, however.

I'm having a hard time believing that Sam would ever be found inside the arc.

Agreed- The Ravines isn't Winding Creek, but it's not Wusky either.  For entertainment purposes, I might also include Wuskowhan in the lawsuit just to have the opportunity to have OK share with me the response he received from Mr. Postma.  It would be more than worth OK's exorbitant fees...

My, my, my. So many issues to diagram and address and so little time. Where can a litigator begin? In order to understand how interesting such a lawsuit might be, a person must fully appreciate the legal distinction between equity and equality. Lawsuits of the type HC alludes to are typically mislabeled as "gender-equity" litigation when in reality they are about attempting to enforce "gender-equality". In order to be fully able to assess the merits of the anticipated action, I would pleased to forego my already modest fee by being treated (courtesy of HC/KV) to two complete rounds at each of the aforementioned golf venues. I'm sure Mr. Postma wouldn't mind.

As to Samy and the arc, I completely agree with KV's comment and would add that the only time Hargraves ever could have been found inside the three point line was when forced to run through the layup line during warmups.

[iwumichigander]

Hargraves was open, just not enough time to get him the ball.

I've always wondered what would happen if a player more or less purposely ran over a coach who was on the floor. Like if, in the above play, Carlson plowed into Hargraves instead of running to the opposite corner. They'd have to T up Hargraves for being on the floor, no?

T - there is a reason for a coaching box.

[oldknight]

Gender equity is a "point of emphasis" for the current MIAA Board of Control.  Look for varying start times to trickle to soccer, lacrosse, and other sports where men and women share facilities.  SAC won't believe what's happen going to happen to golf in a couple of years.   I'm not promoting either side of the coin on this issue, but please know it's not exclusive to basketball.

I'm actually interested what it could be because the men and women really don't and to my knowledge have never played on the same days or locations.  In some cases, like Hope, they don't even play on the same courses.

Hope men =  Wuskowan
Hope women =  Ravines
( lol, I played at Winding Creek and Grand Haven)

With a daughter in high school who played both volleyball and basketball at the time all this changed in MI, I've had more than my share of conversations with girls, coaches, parents, and officials on how/whether this has improved things for girls/women playing high school and college sports.  Strictly looking at the scheduling changes that resulted from the lawsuit, for sports where there are shared facilities, I'd personally be most adamant about ensuring that the prime practice times were equitably distributed.  I just haven't really found anyone, especially female athletes, who think the new system is better for them. 

Based on what I've learned, if I had a daughter playing golf at Hope, the first thing I would do (after hiring OK to represent me and my daughter of course) is sue Hope College for not providing my daughter with a similar quality golf course as the men 

My daughters played high school hoops just two years before the change of seasons. They aren't exactly unopinionated shrinking violets if they think they are being treated--shall we say--paternalistically by their father, but they thought then, and continue to think today that moving girls hoops to the winter was a huge mistake. They loved being the only game in town, something that doesn't exist anymore. They're into equity, not equality.

[oldknight]

Hargraves was open, just not enough time to get him the ball.

I've always wondered what would happen if a player more or less purposely ran over a coach who was on the floor. Like if, in the above play, Carlson plowed into Hargraves instead of running to the opposite corner. They'd have to T up Hargraves for being on the floor, no?

Del Harris got T'd when it happened to him.

I would instruct my players to run into the coach if he's on the floor.

My goodness. Pretty feisty of you HC. First check to make sure your coverages are up to date and then hire a good lawyer. And for a modest fee . . .

[HopeConvert]

I'd like to think the coach is the one who has to check his insurance. After all, he's not where he's supposed to be.

I keep hoping some B1G coach tells one of his players to do this to Tom Izzo. Honestly, if the refs aren't going to enforce it, take a more dramatic step. It's an easily enforceable rule, and there's no good reason for a coach to violate it.

On a different note, what did Trine's defense do to Calvin last night?

[HopeConvert]

Gender equity is a "point of emphasis" for the current MIAA Board of Control.  Look for varying start times to trickle to soccer, lacrosse, and other sports where men and women share facilities.  SAC won't believe what's happen going to happen to golf in a couple of years.   I'm not promoting either side of the coin on this issue, but please know it's not exclusive to basketball.

I'm actually interested what it could be because the men and women really don't and to my knowledge have never played on the same days or locations.  In some cases, like Hope, they don't even play on the same courses.

Hope men =  Wuskowan
Hope women =  Ravines
( lol, I played at Winding Creek and Grand Haven)

With a daughter in high school who played both volleyball and basketball at the time all this changed in MI, I've had more than my share of conversations with girls, coaches, parents, and officials on how/whether this has improved things for girls/women playing high school and college sports.  Strictly looking at the scheduling changes that resulted from the lawsuit, for sports where there are shared facilities, I'd personally be most adamant about ensuring that the prime practice times were equitably distributed.  I just haven't really found anyone, especially female athletes, who think the new system is better for them. 

Based on what I've learned, if I had a daughter playing golf at Hope, the first thing I would do (after hiring OK to represent me and my daughter of course) is sue Hope College for not providing my daughter with a similar quality golf course as the men 

My daughters played high school hoops just two years before the change of seasons. They aren't exactly unopinionated shrinking violets if they think they are being treated--shall we say--paternalistically by their father, but they thought then, and continue to think today that moving girls hoops to the winter was a huge mistake. They loved being the only game in town, something that doesn't exist anymore. They're into equity, not equality.

The MIAA, if I'm not mistaken, has construed it as a matter of equity; one of the reasons why I thought they could use a lesson in it. But I may have misread what the MIAA said.

Of course, if it's a matter of equality, there are still questions that need answering, not begging.

[oldknight]

I'd like to think the coach is the one who has to check his insurance. After all, he's not where he's supposed to be.

Not trying to defend Sammy--like KV I was surprised Hargraves wasn't penalized for walking out a good 20 feet on to the floor while the ball was in play. But on the advise of counsel, you should reconsider your legal opinion. If coach 1 instructs a player to run over coach 2, said coach 2 gets injured, and coach 2's loyal counselor learns it was a deliberate act, guess who is going to get sued?