MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[realist]

I value the opinions of everyone on this page so I am sincerely asking for your thoughts on this question - how do any of the other MIAA schools benefit from the league making a change in its scheduling policies just for the Hope/Calvin games?  I can think of a few things, but nothing of real substance.  I know that I am blinded a little (or more) by my history, so I am guessing there may be some reasons that my bias will not allow me to see.

A good and fair question.  As a Calvin fan it is MO that all teams in the league should be treated equally and fairly.  No preference should be shown to any school or teams simply because they have a bigger gym or have won some national competition.  My understanding of both the MIAA structure and the D3 philosophy is that is to be the goal of all schools.  Once a conference would start making "exceptions" or giving special consideration to one school or another I think you have planted the seeds for the end of a healthy conference. 
The idea that the teams on the field or the floor are the ones that determine the champion, and the order of seeding for sport tournaments is really the best way to go. 
When you read how the NCAA views competion at the D3 level it is important to remember that consideration for fans or making the most money is not to be the driving factor. 

[KnightSlappy]

I value the opinions of everyone on this page so I am sincerely asking for your thoughts on this question - how do any of the other MIAA schools benefit from the league making a change in its scheduling policies just for the Hope/Calvin games?  I can think of a few things, but nothing of real substance.  I know that I am blinded a little (or more) by my history, so I am guessing there may be some reasons that my bias will not allow me to see.

A good and fair question.  As a Calvin fan it is MO that all teams in the league should be treated equally and fairly.  No preference should be shown to any school or teams simply because they have a bigger gym or have won some national competition.  My understanding of both the MIAA structure and the D3 philosophy is that is to be the goal of all schools.  Once a conference would start making "exceptions" or giving special consideration to one school or another I think you have planted the seeds for the end of a healthy conference. 
The idea that the teams on the field or the floor are the ones that determine the champion, and the order of seeding for sport tournaments is really the best way to go. 
When you read how the NCAA views competion at the D3 level it is important to remember that consideration for fans or making the most money is not to be the driving factor.

I think, leaving aside the draw to the fans or gate revenue, the Calvin-Hope games are a unique student-athlete experience. "Preferential treatment" for the scheduling of the weeknight game comes at no real cost to the other MIAA schools. That's what I meant by it not being a ridiculous ask.

I get that there might not be any real benefit to the other schools, but what does it cost them?

[Gregory Sager]

IMHO - the world needs to recognize that while both men and women play a game called basketball, they are truly different games and they attract different people. I say this being someone who appreciates both games, but I also recognize they are different.

As a fan of both men's basketball and women's basketball at the D3 level, I agree with you 100%, FDF.

[Mr. Ypsi]

IMHO - the world needs to recognize that while both men and women play a game called basketball, they are truly different games and they attract different people. I say this being someone who appreciates both games, but I also recognize they are different.

As a fan of both men's basketball and women's basketball at the D3 level, I agree with you 100%, FDF.

Of course, Greg has to say that because otherwise WashU's women have matched the NPU men in national titles!

But, actually, I agree with both of you.

[Hopetix]

Here are a few things to consider from the ticket and customer service perspective....

There were less than 60 Hope students (about 60 if you include the cheerleaders and the JV team) in attendance on Wednesday night because of the early start time. (Even though we tried to provide free transportation for our students) This change impacted not only the student athletes experience, but also the students who want to be a part of the rivalry experience as a fan and be a part of something unique and special, and yes this game is something unique and special in D3 sports.

My heart broke (and yes I will say this as a Hope fan) for the Calvin women who walked out to 4000 people exiting the gym including 400 plus of their peers who had no interest in supporting their first place women's team. From 4000 plus to 147, that is a slap in the face to their entire team, and yes there were more people at the Men's JV game than at the varsity women's game. If you're a recruit for the women's team how does this look if you see this mass exit. It can't be a positive from a recruit and a recruits parents perspective.

Had the women played the game at 6PM, they would have had almost a full house by the time the second half started. It is also not fair (as someone who has to work with the fans from the non-Hope/Calvin school playing the women's team, in this case Olivet) they are either kicked out after their game if the women are playing first, or have to wait to come into the gym because the women are playing second. It makes it difficult to be a good host to the other school and their fans and I have to believe it makes them feel like second class citizens.

We returned more than 300 tickets including 200 student tickets to Calvin because students and community members could not make it from work or school in time so they did not attend. We usually sell all of our tickets for the game at Calvin.

Calvin had more than 300 tickets left as well and it was no problem to get a ticket at the door. The revenue they lost as a result (and yes I understand it's not all about the money) was substantial. Both schools budget for a sell-out plus, and this switch obviously had an impact financially.

While I believe the intentions are good, the reality is, in my view, this change had a negative impact on our athletes, our students and our community (both Hope and Calvin). They were not able to experience this unique and special event.

I echo the question how does this "hurt" the other schools to make a switch in schedule, or at least allow Hope and Calvin to work out a change that works for all the schools involved (in this case Olivet). I may not be aware of all that goes into making changes in schedules, so know I'd like to hear the case for how this does hurt the other schools. I will be the first to say okay, that makes sense!

For Hope's women's team we get more fans at a stand alone game then we do for the double-headers for our women regardless of when they play because they have their own fan base.

If the issue is providing equity in the start times, does it make sense to play games on Thursday? Or go to afternoon and night games on Saturday which allow for ticketing these as separate games? Thus leaving the Wednesday night games as stand alone games which also allowing the JV teams to play prior to the varsity games for both the men and the women. It seems the JV teams are suffering as well.

I feel for all the coaches and AD's of all of the MIAA schools who were unable to work to tweak this to work for everyone. I hope the powers that be will take a hard and honest look at this year and be willing to say what worked and what didn't work, and be willing to make changes as we go to make it better for everyone.

It is my opinion we should be evaluating this from the following perspective and in this order:
1. Student athletes and coaches
2. Student fans
3. Parents of players/Recruits
4. Community fans

As someone who strives to provide exceptional customer service to everyone I work with, our goal should be to provide an excellent experience for everyone involved.

[KnightSlappy]

true fact: 147 was the high attendance for the MIAA women's slate on Wednesday.

[Gregory Sager]

IMHO - the world needs to recognize that while both men and women play a game called basketball, they are truly different games and they attract different people. I say this being someone who appreciates both games, but I also recognize they are different.

As a fan of both men's basketball and women's basketball at the D3 level, I agree with you 100%, FDF.

Of course, Greg has to say that because otherwise WashU's women have matched the NPU men in national titles!

The thought never even occurred to me. I was speaking as someone who broadcasts both men's and women's games, and who thus appreciates the women's game for the distinct sport that it is. But I'm not at all surprised that you're the one who pointed the finger at me. You could find a second career in your retirement years as Nancy Fahey's PR flack, Chuck.

[realist]

true fact: 147 was the high attendance for the MIAA women's slate on Wednesday.

Did you stay to watch the game?

In the nine Calvin home women's bball games before last night the average attendance was 146 per game.
So, aside from all this angst, the attendance at last night women's game was above their average ytd.

It did not seem to bother the women one bit that all those people left the arena before they played.  One suspects the results would have been fairly similar had they played the game without any fans present. 
I understand the point you think you are making, but it didn't affect the women's game, and the early start did little to diminish the crowd or the results of the 6 p.m. start.

The losers in this are really the "Calvin" supporters that denied themselves the chance to watch a very good Calvin team win their 20th straight game to start this season.  A quick check of the records shows that few Calvin men's teams have started their season going 20-0. 


Hopetix.  "My heart broke"  Did it break enough that you were one of the 147? 

One really has to love all these people that get filled with "righteous indignation" about attendance at basketball games, but are just like those people the minister only sees on Easter and Christmas eve.

[KnightSlappy]

true fact: 147 was the high attendance for the MIAA women's slate on Wednesday.

I understand the point you think you are making, but it didn't affect the women's game, and the early start did little to diminish the crowd or the results of the 6 p.m. start.

I wasn't making a point, I was simply stating a true fact.

I did not stay for the Women's game; maybe if my kids were five years older we would have stayed. I've brought the kids to three Wednesday games: two Men's and one Women's (all 6 PM starts).

[sac]

Fun board.

[Pat Coleman]

Hopetix.  "My heart broke"  Did it break enough that you were one of the 147? 

One really has to love all these people that get filled with "righteous indignation" about attendance at basketball games, but are just like those people the minister only sees on Easter and Christmas eve.

Isn't it somewhere on the indignant spectrum to expect a Hope fan to stay and watch Calvin and Olivet play?

[almcguirejr]

Here are a few things to consider from the ticket and customer service perspective....

There were less than 60 Hope students (about 60 if you include the cheerleaders and the JV team) in attendance on Wednesday night because of the early start time. (Even though we tried to provide free transportation for our students) This change impacted not only the student athletes experience, but also the students who want to be a part of the rivalry experience as a fan and be a part of something unique and special, and yes this game is something unique and special in D3 sports.

My heart broke (and yes I will say this as a Hope fan) for the Calvin women who walked out to 4000 people exiting the gym including 400 plus of their peers who had no interest in supporting their first place women's team. From 4000 plus to 147, that is a slap in the face to their entire team, and yes there were more people at the Men's JV game than at the varsity women's game. If you're a recruit for the women's team how does this look if you see this mass exit. It can't be a positive from a recruit and a recruits parents perspective.

Had the women played the game at 6PM, they would have had almost a full house by the time the second half started. It is also not fair (as someone who has to work with the fans from the non-Hope/Calvin school playing the women's team, in this case Olivet) they are either kicked out after their game if the women are playing first, or have to wait to come into the gym because the women are playing second. It makes it difficult to be a good host to the other school and their fans and I have to believe it makes them feel like second class citizens.

We returned more than 300 tickets including 200 student tickets to Calvin because students and community members could not make it from work or school in time so they did not attend. We usually sell all of our tickets for the game at Calvin.

Calvin had more than 300 tickets left as well and it was no problem to get a ticket at the door. The revenue they lost as a result (and yes I understand it's not all about the money) was substantial. Both schools budget for a sell-out plus, and this switch obviously had an impact financially.

While I believe the intentions are good, the reality is, in my view, this change had a negative impact on our athletes, our students and our community (both Hope and Calvin). They were not able to experience this unique and special event.

I echo the question how does this "hurt" the other schools to make a switch in schedule, or at least allow Hope and Calvin to work out a change that works for all the schools involved (in this case Olivet). I may not be aware of all that goes into making changes in schedules, so know I'd like to hear the case for how this does hurt the other schools. I will be the first to say okay, that makes sense!

For Hope's women's team we get more fans at a stand alone game then we do for the double-headers for our women regardless of when they play because they have their own fan base.

If the issue is providing equity in the start times, does it make sense to play games on Thursday? Or go to afternoon and night games on Saturday which allow for ticketing these as separate games? Thus leaving the Wednesday night games as stand alone games which also allowing the JV teams to play prior to the varsity games for both the men and the women. It seems the JV teams are suffering as well.

I feel for all the coaches and AD's of all of the MIAA schools who were unable to work to tweak this to work for everyone. I hope the powers that be will take a hard and honest look at this year and be willing to say what worked and what didn't work, and be willing to make changes as we go to make it better for everyone.

It is my opinion we should be evaluating this from the following perspective and in this order:
1. Student athletes and coaches
2. Student fans
3. Parents of players/Recruits
4. Community fans

As someone who strives to provide exceptional customer service to everyone I work with, our goal should be to provide an excellent experience for everyone involved.

Thanks for taking time to write.

[oldknight]

true fact: 147 was the high attendance for the MIAA women's slate on Wednesday.

Did you stay to watch the game?

In the nine Calvin home women's bball games before last night the average attendance was 146 per game.
So, aside from all this angst, the attendance at last night women's game was above their average ytd. 

Hopetix.  "My heart broke"  Did it break enough that you were one of the 147? 

I'm pleased to report I did in fact stay for the women's contest and single-handedly put them over the top of their average attendance. I admit that I left at the break but with the Lady Knights holding a 55-25 advantage my heart was no longer breaking. I counted their lead to be a sufficient amount of hay in the barn to weather any second half comeback Olivet might try to mount.

[Grutte Dirk]

It is my opinion we should be evaluating this from the following perspective and in this order:
1. Student athletes and coaches
2. Student fans
3. Parents of players/Recruits
4. Community fans

... and our governement would say:
1. Gender equity

[HopeConvert]

I've said it before: the principle of equality applies to treating like things alike with respect to their likeness. Men's and women's basketball, as FDF said, are not like things.

But then, someone who was in on the decision told me "We didn't decide in favor of equality. We decided the men would be superior one year and the women would be superior the next." Which is probably closer to the truth, and explains the boneheadedness of the decision.

EDIT: As if such things can be decided by fiat.