MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Titan Q]

There will certainly be an adjustment after seeing Carthage in the event for so many years, but from a scheduling standpoint I don't see any difference other than saving an hour of drivetime every four years.

The big difference is that North Central is a much better program than Carthage. 

Last 5 years
- North Central: 49-21 CCIW (.700)/2 titles/2 NCAA/6 NCAA wins (1 Final Four)
- Carthage: 36-34 CCIW (.514)/0 titles/0 NCAA/0 NCAA wins

NCC seems to have the pieces to be a national power in the next 4 years.  One of those pieces is 6-5 G/F Connor Raridon, son of head coach Todd Raridon, who will be a freshman this year (his older brother Derek was CCIW M.O.P. and an All-American at NCC, and Connor might be better).  Meanwhile, Carthage seems headed for more CCIW bottom half finishes.

[sac]

To make the tournament as a Pool C, you basically want to:
   * Meet the 70% requirement (also noted on page 18).
   * Finish with the best D3 win/loss % possible - this is clearly the most important criterion.
   * Finish with an SOS that at least doesn't hurt you - maybe .510+.
   * Hope you end up having played at least a few games against other RRO, with at least 1 win.

2014-15 Pool C Selections (just my guess at order)
1. (GL) Marietta (.893/.519/4-3)
2. (MA) Johns Hopkins (.852/.539/3-3)
3. (C) UW-Stevens Point (.808/.575/2-4)  *Co-Champ with Whitewater
4. (C)  Washington U. (.800/.565/4-2)
5. (GL) Ohio Wesleyan (.815/.537/3-1)
6. (S) Virginia Wesleyan (.815/.554/0-4)
7. (NE) Trinity-Conn. (.792/.535/5-1)
8. (NE) Amherst (.741/.579/6-3)
9. (NE) Bates (.760/.609/4-5)
10. (AT) William Patterson (.741/.565/4-3)
11. (GL) Wooster (.786/.551/3-2)
12. (C) Illinois Wesleyan (.704/.591/5-5)
13. (C) Elmhurst (.731/.551/4-4)
14. (GL) John Carroll (.769/.527/3-3)
15. (W) St. Olaf (.808/.527/1-5)
16. (MA) Catholic (.846/.506/1-3)
17. (NE) Eastern Conn. (.815/.550/0-2)
18. (NE) WPI (.808/.515/2-3)
19. (NE) Springfield (.704/.584/3-5)

Bold ='s teams that won their regular season championship but not the AQ
Red='s teams from one of the WIAC/ODAC/NESCAC/UAA/CCIW  "power conferences"

If you are not a regular season conference champion (ie with great criteria anyway) or a member of one of the power 5 conferences, you have very little chance of gaining a Pool C bid. 

RRO's is always a hot topic, of the 6 teams that didn't make the "bolded or red" category I laid out, they all had at least 5 games vs RRO's.  Nearly all of them against conference opponents. 

Add.......if you are not in a conference with at least a couple of other RRO teams, you have very little to no chance of earning a pool C bid.

[AndOne]

A lesson I probably already knew but, if not, definitely learned last season is that wins against other D3s is of primary importance. According to Massey, North Central played the nation's 14 toughest schedule last season. They finished 18-8, and were ranked 32nd in the final D3Hoops poll (and yes, I am fully aware the D3Hoops poll means nothing to the national committee as far as national tournament selection). Two of their 8 losses were to national championship game loser (#2) Augustana. One was to (#10) Dickinson. Two were to one game national tourney winner (#29) Elmhurst, and one to fellow one game national tourney winner (#26) IL Wesleyan. They BEAT BOTH
Stevens Point and Augustana, the two teams that played for the national championship.
However, despite playing the 14th toughest schedule in the country, and winning 18 games, including beating both teams that played the final game of the season, they were not selected for the national tourney. Granted, they royally f**ked up in losses to Elmhurst and, especially, Millikin that would have likely guaranteed their selection. However, I believe the primary reason they weren't selected was due to the fact that, as far as the national committee was concerned, they only won 16 games. The two wins against non D3 teams (both in tournaments) were viewed as non entities.
Bottom line---play D3 teams! And, of course win them, especially the ones you should. 

Corollary to the above is participation in tournaments during the season. Greg Sager has already delineated the difficulties various teams face each season in trying to attract a full field of D3s to their tournaments. And, when you travel to a tournament, say from Illinois to Pennsylvania, you have even less control over potential opponents, some of whom may not have even yet signed a contract to appear at the time you do.

[sac]

A lesson I probably already knew but, if not, definitely learned last season is that wins against other D3s is of primary importance. According to Massey, North Central played the nation's 14 toughest schedule last season. They finished 18-8, and were ranked 32nd in the final D3Hoops poll (and yes, I am fully aware the D3Hoops poll means nothing to the national committee as far as national tournament selection). Two of their 8 losses were to national championship game loser (#2) Augustana. One was to (#10) Dickinson. Two were to one game national tourney winner (#29) Elmhurst, and one to fellow one game national tourney winner (#26) IL Wesleyan. They BEAT BOTH
Stevens Point and Augustana, the two teams that played for the national championship.
However, despite playing the 14th toughest schedule in the country, and winning 18 games, including beating both teams that played the final game of the season, they were not selected for the national tourney. Granted, they royally f**ked up in losses to Elmhurst and, especially, Millikin that would have likely guaranteed their selection. However, I believe the primary reason they weren't selected was due to the fact that, as far as the national committee was concerned, they only won 16 games. The two wins against non D3 teams (both in tournaments) were viewed as non entities.
Bottom line---play D3 teams! And, of course win them, especially the ones you should. 

Corollary to the above is participation in tournaments during the season. Greg Sager has already delineated the difficulties various teams face each season in trying to attract a full field of D3s to their tournaments. And, when you travel to a tournament, say from Illinois to Pennsylvania, you have even less control over potential opponents, some of whom may not have even yet signed a contract to appear at the time you do.

or say tournaments at North Central.....<cough>College of Faith<cough><cough>

[AndOne]

But you forget that after a late cancellation, and then encountering great difficulty in finding any team eager to come to Naperville to play a 2011-12 Sweet Sixteen team that was expected to be even better in 2012-13, NCC invited College Of Faith to the 2012 Tip-Off Tournament only at the suggestion of Hope. 

Also, probably never having planned a D3 season opening tournament, you likely are unaware of how difficult it can be to attract 3 other quality D3 participants. 

Lastly, mock the participation of College Of Faith to whatever extent provides your desired level of amusement. But, remember that your school had the opportunity to play the team they thought they wanted the following evening. 

[sac]

Didn't forget anything, even the winky winky emoticon.  Are we rewriting history now?  Cool I've got some rewrites of my own.

[Pat Coleman]

But you forget that after a late cancellation, and then encountering great difficulty in finding any team eager to come to Naperville to play a 2011-12 Sweet Sixteen team that was expected to be even better in 2012-13, NCC invited College Of Faith to the 2012 Tip-Off Tournament only at the suggestion of Hope. 

Also, probably never having planned a D3 season opening tournament, you likely are unaware of how difficult it can be to attract 3 other quality D3 participants. 

Mark, are you now in charge of organizing this tournament? Good. Perhaps you've learned it's a good idea to schedule the D-III teams that you managed to get to your tournament.

[AndOne]

Pat,

I always want to see nothing but D3 teams. In tournaments we both host and visit. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, it's often very difficult to get that done. But that arrangement always has my full support.

[KnightSlappy]

If you are a fan of a "bubble" team in any given year, you better hope your team has played all or almost all D3 teams because the D3 national committee is going to non D3 opponents as non entities. You can beat a good or great NAIA team and you'll get precisely zero credit as far as consideration for inclusion in the national tournament is concerned.

To make the tournament as a Pool C, you basically want to:
   * Meet the 70% requirement (also noted on page 18).
   * Finish with the best D3 win/loss % possible - this is clearly the most important criterion.
   * Finish with an SOS that at least doesn't hurt you - maybe .510+.
   * Hope you end up having played at least a few games against other RRO, with at least 1 win.

Non-D3 games are counted in the secondary criteria for overall which seems to be nearly always used when they're down to the final few Pool C spots.

It's been said (or strongly hinted at) that the D3 committee makes no attempt to qualify relative strength of non-D3 schools, so a win against Marygrove would count the same as a win over Cornerstone. And the team that beats Marygrove is going to get the nod over the team that loses to Cornerstone, assuming everything else in the criteria was equal.

[sac]

Alma's new AD,  http://www.alma.edu/live/news/538-steven-rackley-named-athletic-director

[ziggy]

There will certainly be an adjustment after seeing Carthage in the event for so many years, but from a scheduling standpoint I don't see any difference other than saving an hour of drivetime every four years.

The big difference is that North Central is a much better program than Carthage. 

Last 5 years
- North Central: 49-21 CCIW (.700)/2 titles/2 NCAA/6 NCAA wins (1 Final Four)
- Carthage: 36-34 CCIW (.514)/0 titles/0 NCAA/0 NCAA wins

NCC seems to have the pieces to be a national power in the next 4 years.  One of those pieces is 6-5 G/F Connor Raridon, son of head coach Todd Raridon, who will be a freshman this year (his older brother Derek was CCIW M.O.P. and an All-American at NCC, and Connor might be better).  Meanwhile, Carthage seems headed for more CCIW bottom half finishes.

Point is, there is no reason to bemoan the departure of Carthage from the event. Hope and Calvin will still get a weekend of two quality (now actually more quality) D3 games.

[HOPEful]

If you truly love that, then what I am about to tell you is going to break your heart. Carthage is dropping out of the series following this coming season. Word from Naperville has it that North Central will be taking the place of the Red Men.

I don't really care what CCIW teams show up, and actually would be happier if Carthage truly is being replaced by North Central. I just love knowing regional opponents from a high quality conference will be on the schedule every year.

[Gregory Sager]

There will certainly be an adjustment after seeing Carthage in the event for so many years, but from a scheduling standpoint I don't see any difference other than saving an hour of drivetime every four years.

The big difference is that North Central is a much better program than Carthage. 

Last 5 years
- North Central: 49-21 CCIW (.700)/2 titles/2 NCAA/6 NCAA wins (1 Final Four)
- Carthage: 36-34 CCIW (.514)/0 titles/0 NCAA/0 NCAA wins

NCC seems to have the pieces to be a national power in the next 4 years.  One of those pieces is 6-5 G/F Connor Raridon, son of head coach Todd Raridon, who will be a freshman this year (his older brother Derek was CCIW M.O.P. and an All-American at NCC, and Connor might be better).  Meanwhile, Carthage seems headed for more CCIW bottom half finishes.

This.

I understand ziggy's reasoning, that it's the tournament itself -- with its two annual games against CCIW teams -- that really matters to a fan of one of the MIAA's Big Two (such as himself or HOPEful), rather than the particulars with regard to which CCIW teams are involved. And HOPEful has since confirmed that. But Bob is right; CCIW programs are not interchangeable, even if (as is the case with Carthage and North Central) they wear the same colors.

As Bob's post indicated, Carthage has been on a downward slide, and, based upon what the Red Men have coming back (and the fact that Bosko Djurickovic may now be entering lame-duck status in the eyes of high-school coaches and prospects as he approaches retirement age), it does not appear that they will be a force in the CCIW in the near future. Meanwhile, although I don't know if I agree with Bob's assessment of North Central now having the necessary pieces for national-power status over the next four years, I do know that Connor Raridon, plus his dad's penchant for finding good transfers, will most likely make the Cardinals a formidable opponent over that time span.

Of course, nothing is ever written in stone in college basketball. A couple of key transfers, and presto! Carthage could have a sudden upward swing, while NCC has absolutely no guarantee that it will be successful in the meantime. Nevertheless, I'm pretty comfortable with stating that the CCIW/MIAA Challenge will be a very different animal with NCC in it rather than Carthage, at least for the foreseeable future.

My original point simply took HOPEful's statement:

This is why I love the CCIW/MIAA challenge every year! I love knowing the Carthage and Wheaton will always appear on Hope's schedule.

... at face value. I didn't assume that he had any particular jones for Hope to play Carthage rather than North Central, or Millikin, or Elmhurst, or any other CCIW team.

But you forget that after a late cancellation, and then encountering great difficulty in finding any team eager to come to Naperville to play a 2011-12 Sweet Sixteen team that was expected to be even better in 2012-13, NCC invited College Of Faith to the 2012 Tip-Off Tournament only at the suggestion of Hope. 

Further proof that the Apostle Paul was correct in informing the Corinthians that faith, hope, and love go together. In this case, of course, Todd Raridon brought the love.

[sac]

Taking Bob's numbers further.......

When the MIAA/CCIW challenge began in 2004/05 Carthage was one year removed from a trip to the Final Four and a couple years from 2 CCIW titles in 3 years.  They had finished ahead of Wheaton in the CCIW standings 4 years in a row.  It could have been argued then Carthage was a better program than Wheaton pretty easily.

In the 11 years since, Wheaton has had the better stretch and by a pretty substantial margin.  108 CCIW wins to 88 and finished ahead of Carthage in the CCIW standings 9 times.

Overall Records from 2004/05 to 2014/15
Wheaton 209-95      .688
Carthage  150-125   .545

20 win seasons:  Wheaton 6  Carthage 1
losing seasons:   Wheaton 2  Carthage 5


Unbelievably Todd Raridon has been at North Central for 9 years now.  His overall record is 176-75, that's a nice .701 clip, better than Carthage and nearly identical to Wheaton(.703) over that same nine year stretch.  Todd started winning right away at North Central, inheriting a program that was on an upswing after having one winning season in a stretch from 1991 to 2004.  He's already passed Carthage's 20 win season count with 2 and has had just one losing season.

For the near future it looks like North Central is a pretty decent improvement over Carthage (weird words to say), but in 2004/05 when this challenge started if you had asked which CCIW program I feared more Carthage or Wheaton, I would have said Carthage.  At that time a solid 4 year run of success with a national championship winning coach at the helm and not at that different than where North Central is right now.   It just hasn't worked that way.

Its hard to tell how these things will spin out over time.

[almcguirejr]

I like the NCC for Carthage exchange because there are a lot of Calvin alums in the western suburbs who will support the team in Naperville.