MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[KnightSlappy]

7-7 with the availability that Calvin has for recruiting is absolutely disgusting. Calvin should never finish below 3rd in the league with the resources they have available. No disrespect to any MIAA team, but with the the facilities Calvin has at its disposal, not making the tourney is not an option. Anything less than 3rd is an utter disaster and most of the donors agree with me. This season is cause for concern.

"Availability that Calvin has for recruiting...."  What does that mean?  Asking parents to shell out $38,000 a year so their kid can come and try out for the team?   But hey,  they'll have a really nice gym to play in if they make it. 

You seem to have no clue as to the state of small college recruiting these days.  Virtually every college player has played AAU ball.  The minute they join an AAU program all they hear about is "scholarships."  They're told that their club will help their kid pay for their college education.  And the kids and their parents fall hard for this.   It's  a badge of honor to be "offered", and have that national letter of intent signing day.

And quite frankly,  it's real.  I can think of 5 quality players off the top of my head, all 6'6  or bigger from west Michigan Christian schools ( historically typical Calvin feeder schools), that are currently playing college ball under scholarships at NAIA schools.  Two of them have fathers that has good careers at Calvin .  The program, the history, the academics, and  the facilities cannot compete with what can amount to 10's of thousands of dollars over the course of 4 years.

With that logic, the overall talent level of D3 basketball should be falling and Calvin should be able to maintain its position as a national power. Unfortunately your logic fails. Trust me, I'm not only familiar with playing D3 and the expenses that come with it but also the decision to play or not play based on those financial questions and the role AAU is playing (some of us on this board aren't in our 40-50's and have played in the AAU circuit). The thing that people like you want us to believe (us being individuals who believe Calvin basketball deserves better) is that mediocrity is just a sign of the times and we should accept it. If finances were the only issue for Calvin, then Hope would be in an equally poor position as well as many other D3 institutions. It's poor coaching that is the problem and is pushing athletes away, as much as you want to put your head in the sand and think otherwise.

OK, I'll bite. I too would love to see Calvin have a UWSP type run -- win a few national championships and make the tournament every single year -- but it's just not true that Calvin is "mediocre" or in a "poor position" when it comes to men's basketball.

Under KVS, Calvin has been quite a good Division III basketball team. It might be true that they've come up short against some of our lofty standards, but there's a difference between being an objectively middling program and not quite where we wish they were.

I mean, for goodness sake, Calvin's present graduating class is on a streak of reaching three-straight Rounds of 32 and two-of-three Sweet Sixteens in the NCAA Tournament. They won two MIAA titles and all three MIAA Tournaments. They're 6-3 vs. Hope. Those streaks will probably end soon, but it feels like we're jumping the gun on this discussion.

[HopeConvert]

Final from Angola: Trine 55 Olivet 54

Very disappointing game for the Thunder...almost maddening.  For as well as they played the last 35 minutes against Alma, they really stunk up the joint today.  Only thing good I have to say is they got a "W".  Olivet has to be deflated, they had the game in hand.  Trine had a quick 6-2 lead, but from there on it was all Olivet, they outplayed us in pretty much in all facets of the game.  The only other lead of the game for Trine was when Will Dixon hit 2 free throws with 2 seconds left to win it.  Olivet didn't get a look at the end.  This feels more like a loss than a win.

Trine better get this figured out soon or they will not even make the 4 team MIAA tournament.   

At this rate, only two teams are going to make it.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

7-7 with the availability that Calvin has for recruiting is absolutely disgusting. Calvin should never finish below 3rd in the league with the resources they have available. No disrespect to any MIAA team, but with the the facilities Calvin has at its disposal, not making the tourney is not an option. Anything less than 3rd is an utter disaster and most of the donors agree with me. This season is cause for concern.

"Availability that Calvin has for recruiting...."  What does that mean?  Asking parents to shell out $38,000 a year so their kid can come and try out for the team?   But hey,  they'll have a really nice gym to play in if they make it. 

You seem to have no clue as to the state of small college recruiting these days.  Virtually every college player has played AAU ball.  The minute they join an AAU program all they hear about is "scholarships."  They're told that their club will help their kid pay for their college education.  And the kids and their parents fall hard for this.   It's  a badge of honor to be "offered", and have that national letter of intent signing day.

And quite frankly,  it's real.  I can think of 5 quality players off the top of my head, all 6'6  or bigger from west Michigan Christian schools ( historically typical Calvin feeder schools), that are currently playing college ball under scholarships at NAIA schools.  Two of them have fathers that has good careers at Calvin .  The program, the history, the academics, and  the facilities cannot compete with what can amount to 10's of thousands of dollars over the course of 4 years.

With that logic, the overall talent level of D3 basketball should be falling and Calvin should be able to maintain its position as a national power. Unfortunately your logic fails. Trust me, I'm not only familiar with playing D3 and the expenses that come with it but also the decision to play or not play based on those financial questions and the role AAU is playing (some of us on this board aren't in our 40-50's and have played in the AAU circuit). The thing that people like you want us to believe (us being individuals who believe Calvin basketball deserves better) is that mediocrity is just a sign of the times and we should accept it. If finances were the only issue for Calvin, then Hope would be in an equally poor position as well as many other D3 institutions. It's poor coaching that is the problem and is pushing athletes away, as much as you want to put your head in the sand and think otherwise.

OK, I'll bite. I too would love to see Calvin have a UWSP type run -- win a few national championships and make the tournament every single year -- but it's just not true that Calvin is "mediocre" or in a "poor position" when it comes to men's basketball.

Under KVS, Calvin has been quite a good Division III basketball team. It might be true that they've come up short against some of our lofty standards, but there's a difference between being an objectively middling program and not quite where we wish they were.

I mean, for goodness sake, Calvin's present graduating class is on a streak of reaching three-straight Rounds of 32 and two-of-three Sweet Sixteens in the NCAA Tournament. They won two MIAA titles and all three MIAA Tournaments. They're 6-3 vs. Hope. Those streaks will probably end soon, but it feels like we're jumping the gun on this discussion.

Some people need a frame of reference. I have said it in varying places several times this season including on Hoopsville - may have even made the reference again this past show - by CALVIN's standards this is maybe a sub-par season. But I promise you, there are hundreds of Division III programs who would kill to have the record schedule Calvin has and record, especially the wins, they have achieved this season. Some may think they are having a down season and that Kevin Vande Streek is at the end of his run, but this is ONE season. They were on top of the conference last season, right? Now they are in THIRD! Perspective people. Perspective. Calvin is still a very good and very dangerous team and one season does not make a history.

[Knight2Day]

7-7 with the availability that Calvin has for recruiting is absolutely disgusting. Calvin should never finish below 3rd in the league with the resources they have available. No disrespect to any MIAA team, but with the the facilities Calvin has at its disposal, not making the tourney is not an option. Anything less than 3rd is an utter disaster and most of the donors agree with me. This season is cause for concern.

"Availability that Calvin has for recruiting...."  What does that mean?  Asking parents to shell out $38,000 a year so their kid can come and try out for the team?   But hey,  they'll have a really nice gym to play in if they make it. 

You seem to have no clue as to the state of small college recruiting these days.  Virtually every college player has played AAU ball.  The minute they join an AAU program all they hear about is "scholarships."  They're told that their club will help their kid pay for their college education.  And the kids and their parents fall hard for this.   It's  a badge of honor to be "offered", and have that national letter of intent signing day.

And quite frankly,  it's real.  I can think of 5 quality players off the top of my head, all 6'6  or bigger from west Michigan Christian schools ( historically typical Calvin feeder schools), that are currently playing college ball under scholarships at NAIA schools.  Two of them have fathers that has good careers at Calvin .  The program, the history, the academics, and  the facilities cannot compete with what can amount to 10's of thousands of dollars over the course of 4 years.

With that logic, the overall talent level of D3 basketball should be falling and Calvin should be able to maintain its position as a national power. Unfortunately your logic fails. Trust me, I'm not only familiar with playing D3 and the expenses that come with it but also the decision to play or not play based on those financial questions and the role AAU is playing (some of us on this board aren't in our 40-50's and have played in the AAU circuit). The thing that people like you want us to believe (us being individuals who believe Calvin basketball deserves better) is that mediocrity is just a sign of the times and we should accept it. If finances were the only issue for Calvin, then Hope would be in an equally poor position as well as many other D3 institutions. It's poor coaching that is the problem and is pushing athletes away, as much as you want to put your head in the sand and think otherwise.

OK, I'll bite. I too would love to see Calvin have a UWSP type run -- win a few national championships and make the tournament every single year -- but it's just not true that Calvin is "mediocre" or in a "poor position" when it comes to men's basketball.

Under KVS, Calvin has been quite a good Division III basketball team. It might be true that they've come up short against some of our lofty standards, but there's a difference between being an objectively middling program and not quite where we wish they were.

I mean, for goodness sake, Calvin's present graduating class is on a streak of reaching three-straight Rounds of 32 and two-of-three Sweet Sixteens in the NCAA Tournament. They won two MIAA titles and all three MIAA Tournaments. They're 6-3 vs. Hope. Those streaks will probably end soon, but it feels like we're jumping the gun on this discussion.

You never cease to amaze me KS. Im just going to leave it at that. Spend some time in the locker room and inside the program and not just in the stands and writing on your blog and then come talk to me.

[Knight Hawk]

7-7 with the availability that Calvin has for recruiting is absolutely disgusting. Calvin should never finish below 3rd in the league with the resources they have available. No disrespect to any MIAA team, but with the the facilities Calvin has at its disposal, not making the tourney is not an option. Anything less than 3rd is an utter disaster and most of the donors agree with me. This season is cause for concern.

"Availability that Calvin has for recruiting...."  What does that mean?  Asking parents to shell out $38,000 a year so their kid can come and try out for the team?   But hey,  they'll have a really nice gym to play in if they make it. 

You seem to have no clue as to the state of small college recruiting these days.  Virtually every college player has played AAU ball.  The minute they join an AAU program all they hear about is "scholarships."  They're told that their club will help their kid pay for their college education.  And the kids and their parents fall hard for this.   It's  a badge of honor to be "offered", and have that national letter of intent signing day.

And quite frankly,  it's real.  I can think of 5 quality players off the top of my head, all 6'6  or bigger from west Michigan Christian schools ( historically typical Calvin feeder schools), that are currently playing college ball under scholarships at NAIA schools.  Two of them have fathers that has good careers at Calvin .  The program, the history, the academics, and  the facilities cannot compete with what can amount to 10's of thousands of dollars over the course of 4 years.

With that logic, the overall talent level of D3 basketball should be falling and Calvin should be able to maintain its position as a national power. Unfortunately your logic fails. Trust me, I'm not only familiar with playing D3 and the expenses that come with it but also the decision to play or not play based on those financial questions and the role AAU is playing (some of us on this board aren't in our 40-50's and have played in the AAU circuit). The thing that people like you want us to believe (us being individuals who believe Calvin basketball deserves better) is that mediocrity is just a sign of the times and we should accept it. If finances were the only issue for Calvin, then Hope would be in an equally poor position as well as many other D3 institutions. It's poor coaching that is the problem and is pushing athletes away, as much as you want to put your head in the sand and think otherwise.

OK, I'll bite. I too would love to see Calvin have a UWSP type run -- win a few national championships and make the tournament every single year -- but it's just not true that Calvin is "mediocre" or in a "poor position" when it comes to men's basketball.

Under KVS, Calvin has been quite a good Division III basketball team. It might be true that they've come up short against some of our lofty standards, but there's a difference between being an objectively middling program and not quite where we wish they were.

I mean, for goodness sake, Calvin's present graduating class is on a streak of reaching three-straight Rounds of 32 and two-of-three Sweet Sixteens in the NCAA Tournament. They won two MIAA titles and all three MIAA Tournaments. They're 6-3 vs. Hope. Those streaks will probably end soon, but it feels like we're jumping the gun on this discussion.

You never cease to amaze me KS. Im just going to leave it at that. Spend some time in the locker room and inside the program and not just in the stands and writing on your blog and then come talk to me.

K2D, my understanding is that you believe Calvin should be a perennial top-10 Division 3 program.  Albeit a lofty goal, for reasons you have suggested this could be a reasonable view to have.  While you may disagree, it is also justifiable for Calvin fans to be happy with the recent success of the program.  As it stands, it is a down year compared to recent Calvin teams by many (most?) objective standards.  However, I have to agree with KS and Dave McHugh (and respectfully disagree with you) in that you are overstating the current status of the program to argue your beliefs. 

[KnightSlappy]

You never cease to amaze me KS. Im just going to leave it at that. Spend some time in the locker room and inside the program and not just in the stands and writing on your blog and then come talk to me.

I would very much enjoy talking to you. I have never made any pretense of being a program insider and your personal experiences might sway my thinking in some of these matters. I am amenable to grabbing a cold pop on most nights if you're still local.

[sac]

This conversation seems to take place every year when Calvin is not in first place.

[wiz]

Im just going to leave it at that.

Thank you.

[wiz]

This conversation seems to take place every year when Calvin is not in first place.

Bingo!

[Gregory Sager]

7-7 with the availability that Calvin has for recruiting is absolutely disgusting. Calvin should never finish below 3rd in the league with the resources they have available. No disrespect to any MIAA team, but with the the facilities Calvin has at its disposal, not making the tourney is not an option. Anything less than 3rd is an utter disaster and most of the donors agree with me. This season is cause for concern.

"Availability that Calvin has for recruiting...."  What does that mean?  Asking parents to shell out $38,000 a year so their kid can come and try out for the team?   But hey,  they'll have a really nice gym to play in if they make it. 

You seem to have no clue as to the state of small college recruiting these days.  Virtually every college player has played AAU ball.  The minute they join an AAU program all they hear about is "scholarships."  They're told that their club will help their kid pay for their college education.  And the kids and their parents fall hard for this.   It's  a badge of honor to be "offered", and have that national letter of intent signing day.

And quite frankly,  it's real.  I can think of 5 quality players off the top of my head, all 6'6  or bigger from west Michigan Christian schools ( historically typical Calvin feeder schools), that are currently playing college ball under scholarships at NAIA schools.  Two of them have fathers that has good careers at Calvin .  The program, the history, the academics, and  the facilities cannot compete with what can amount to 10's of thousands of dollars over the course of 4 years.

With that logic, the overall talent level of D3 basketball should be falling and Calvin should be able to maintain its position as a national power. Unfortunately your logic fails. Trust me, I'm not only familiar with playing D3 and the expenses that come with it but also the decision to play or not play based on those financial questions and the role AAU is playing (some of us on this board aren't in our 40-50's and have played in the AAU circuit). The thing that people like you want us to believe (us being individuals who believe Calvin basketball deserves better) is that mediocrity is just a sign of the times and we should accept it. If finances were the only issue for Calvin, then Hope would be in an equally poor position as well as many other D3 institutions. It's poor coaching that is the problem and is pushing athletes away, as much as you want to put your head in the sand and think otherwise.

OK, I'll bite. I too would love to see Calvin have a UWSP type run -- win a few national championships and make the tournament every single year -- but it's just not true that Calvin is "mediocre" or in a "poor position" when it comes to men's basketball.

Under KVS, Calvin has been quite a good Division III basketball team. It might be true that they've come up short against some of our lofty standards, but there's a difference between being an objectively middling program and not quite where we wish they were.

I mean, for goodness sake, Calvin's present graduating class is on a streak of reaching three-straight Rounds of 32 and two-of-three Sweet Sixteens in the NCAA Tournament. They won two MIAA titles and all three MIAA Tournaments. They're 6-3 vs. Hope. Those streaks will probably end soon, but it feels like we're jumping the gun on this discussion.

It's never too early for the Fire Vande Streek Club to break out the torches and pitchforks in this room.

[Grutte Dirk]

All coaches have a shelf life. All programs need change. The time for change at Calvin is soon, if not now.

Sadly Calvin needs to do some cleaning higher up than the coaching level if they hope to return to past years' successes.

[Gregory Sager]

 

Calvin's won nine national championships in four different sports over the past twenty years, including two in this decade. And yet the school "needs to do some cleaning higher up than the coaching level if they hope to return to past years' successes"?

Some people don't realize how good they have it.

[sac]

So anyway, thinking 3-pt shooting will be pretty important Wed. night.

[oldknight]

Calvin loses 61-85.  Just following live stats I doubt the game was as close as the score would indicate.
Looking ahead to the next 8 games it may be a struggle to make the MIAA tournament.

They won't. The Knights just aren't that good and the MIAA is a little better this year. I think it's likely to be a 7-7 conference record.

Well, well, well. I make what I thought was an innocent comment--intended as a statement of fact and not a value judgment--then go away from the board for a couple of days, and find out I've touched off a firestorm that engulfs several posters including the measured KS, and even includes an intervention from Dave McHugh himself. A couple of thoughts:

--In the "keen grasp of the obvious" category, Calvin is down due to last year's losses not yet replaced. We thought the transition would be smoother with super-soph Connor VanderBrug, a surefire 1000 point career scorer coming back, but alas, he chose otherwise. I've talked to enough people close to the young man to be confident that it wasn't disaffection with the team. Instead he was unwilling to pay the price of being a college athlete. As a fan, I'm very sorry about that but it's his call to make. Being a student-athlete isn't easy. If Connor's playing this season, then Calvin's final conference record would be better than 7-7, of that I am quite confident.

--I wish Calvin could get every talented hoopster within their natural orbit of players, but they don't and never did. How much of that is due to recruiting failures? Or, to ask another question, how much is due to greater competition to get quality prepsters attracted to your small college basketball team?

--I'm skeptical of comments that imply long-term damage to the program. This being a presidential election year I'm pretty jaded by broad-brush gloom and doom prophecies that raise blood pressures. It doesn't take a lot of change to go from .500 to the top of the league. It's been done many times and other teams will have significant losses to replace next year. Alma loses DJ Beckman and Nikodemski; Trine loses Holmquist and Syroka; Hope loses a bunch.

All coaches have a shelf life. All programs need change. The time for change at Calvin is soon, if not now.

Sadly Calvin needs to do some cleaning higher up than the coaching level if they hope to return to past years' successes.

President Leroy?!?! I kind of like the guy. Don't dump Michael!

[HOPEful]

This conversation seems to take place every year when Calvin is not in first place.

"Brick, where'd you get that hand grenade?"