MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[shknowsbest]

Is Dickerson hurt at Kzoo, I haven't seen his name in the box scores this year?

[calvinite]

No video for the Calvin-UWO game? I'm only getting audio. Maybe it's just as well.

[calvinite]

This would be a competitive game if all the points scored by all the UWO players didn't count except for the points by Charlie Noone who certainly does not have 'none' points.

I'm too distressed about Calvin's overtime loss in VA to watch any more sports this afternoon (which actually is a possibility now that the broadcast is up and running).

[Young Knight 14]

Congratulations to Calvin men's soccer team on a hard fought national championship game. That program is trending up every year.  Meanwhile the basketball team is down 30 in the first half...

[realist]

UWO 73 Calvin 52  The game was not as close as this score would lead you to believe.

[oldknight]

Didn't turn my computer on until the start of the second half and saw the first half stats. Calvin was 6-26 at the break,1-13 from the arc, and trailing by 25. Only because I was curious and have no life was I able to watch the rest of the game. Calvin played better than Oshkosh when I watched--closing with 12 at one point--but that seemed largely because of disinterested and sloppy play by the hosts, who committed 12 turnovers and made only 3 field goals the first 17 minutes of the second half.

The Knights simply can't shoot from the perimeter and you can't win if you can't shoot. They followed up a 9-19 performance from the arc in Kenosha, (and a win) by returning to type on their second foray to America's Dairyland. Unless the Knights find some level of consistency it will be a long year for this team.

[kzoo99]

Is Dickerson hurt at Kzoo, I haven't seen his name in the box scores this year?

Academics are keeping him out.  I think he is eligible soon.

[sac]

Hope beat LaCrosse this evening 80-75

A lot of good things to take from this one as Hope had to play from behind almost the entire night, overcame foul difficulty and had a number of guys make big plays late in the game to secure the win.


I watched LaCrosse in person both Friday and Saturday, I thought they played a little better against Hope with fewer wild shots and better rebounding.  They might have lost their legs a little later in the game.  Will be interesting how they slot into the WIAC.

Hope off until next Saturday when they host UW-Stevens Point

[pointlem]

A lot of good things to take from this one as Hope had to play from behind almost the entire night, overcame foul difficulty

Umm, no Hope starter had more than 2 fouls, Sac.

But yes, on a night with 4 out of 18 on 3's, an exciting come-from-behind win against a better-than-expected Wisconsin team.

[Titan Q]

A lot of good things to take from this one as Hope had to play from behind almost the entire night, overcame foul difficulty

Umm, no Hope starter had more than 2 fouls, Sac.

But yes, on a night with 4 out of 18 on 3's, an exciting come-from-behind win against a better-than-expected Wisconsin team.

First half box...

http://athletics.hope.edu/sports/mbkb/2016-17/boxscores/20161203_hwgi.xml?view=box1

Looks like 3 Hope starters had 2 fouls at halftime. Stuive only played 9 minutes in the 1st and Blackledge just 7.

[HopeConvert]

I wasn't at the game, but I understand THIS requires some discussion:

05:15   Foul by SCHRADLE,ZACH   -   
05:15   Technical Foul by TEAM   -   
05:15      -   CARLSON,CHAD missed free throw
05:15      -   TEAM deadball rebound
05:15      -   CARLSON,CHAD missed free throw
05:15      -   TEAM deadball rebound
05:15      66-68   RAY,TEDDY made free throw
05:15      66-69   RAY,TEDDY made free throw
05:15   FRITZ,AUSTIN made layup   68-69   
05:02      68-71   STUIVE,CODY made dunk

[sac]

A lot of good things to take from this one as Hope had to play from behind almost the entire night, overcame foul difficulty

Umm, no Hope starter had more than 2 fouls, Sac.

But yes, on a night with 4 out of 18 on 3's, an exciting come-from-behind win against a better-than-expected Wisconsin team.

First half box...

http://athletics.hope.edu/sports/mbkb/2016-17/boxscores/20161203_hwgi.xml?view=box1

Looks like 3 Hope starters had 2 fouls at halftime. Stuive only played 9 minutes in the 1st and Blackledge just 7.

Yes first half foul trouble was what I was referring to.  LaCrosse had a chance to put Hope in a real hole but Hope's bench didn't let that happen.  A good moment for a younger mostly inexperienced bunch. 

Losing your two starting interior guys against Lax's front line was not ideal.

[sac]

I wasn't at the game, but I understand THIS requires some discussion:

05:15   Foul by SCHRADLE,ZACH   -   
05:15   Technical Foul by TEAM   -   
05:15      -   CARLSON,CHAD missed free throw
05:15      -   TEAM deadball rebound
05:15      -   CARLSON,CHAD missed free throw
05:15      -   TEAM deadball rebound
05:15      66-68   RAY,TEDDY made free throw
05:15      66-69   RAY,TEDDY made free throw
05:15   FRITZ,AUSTIN made layup   68-69   
05:02      68-71   STUIVE,CODY made dunk

Well, there isn't a great way to discuss it without knowing all the details of which I probably only know between 60 and 80%.  But the highlighted part was foul #5 on Zach Schradle, arguably their best player.  But it was really only his 4th due to a score book error.

The first thing to know is, the score book is official, it is law.  The score book says he had 5 fouls, official Wallace Whitfield went by the score book as he should and disqualified the player.  However it appears there was a very human error somewhere along the way, which no one caught until after the fact, and unfortunately sounds like it would have been difficult to catch even if LaCrosse had a person keeping a score book at the table, which I do not believe they had.


A couple things to note:  (important that there should be communication along the table between score book, clock operator, scoreboard operator, stat crew and team scorers,  a sort of checks and balances to verify game play) (also remember, not every team has a score book at the table including LaCrosse)

You can error 3 ways when recording fouls:
1.  The official gives the wrong number ------a team score book observer at the table should catch this if he's paying attention to the game, if its questioned its then on the official to verify with his other partners
2.  The official gives correct number, score book see's different number, verifies with table-----this is easily correctable since the rest of the table should catch the different number than the official gives
3.  The official gives correct number, score books see's correct number, verifies with table but records the foul on the wrong player-----this is very difficult to correct because no one else can see the foul has gone to the wrong player.

It appears #3 happened and I'm not sure how you correct that in game without having both teams keeping a book and being able to match fouls and times with the official scorer (still waiting to talk to two people about it).  But, the official scorers book is the official book, I think that's important to remember.  The DeVos Fieldhouse scoreboard had 3 fouls to 5, as did the online play-by-play probably.  This leads me to believe the foul was verified at the table with scoreboard and statcrew but entered into the book wrong.


Now, one of LaCrosse's beefs is that they claim they were not notified of the player having 4 fouls, the error appears to be jumping from foul #3 to foul #5.  The table says they were.   You will often see the table hold up fingers, this is apparently not required and is done more of a courtesy or intended to communicate along the table not necessarily with the team benches.  That's not really a valid argument since the table is not required to notify the bench of foul totals.

As I understand things its really up to LaCrosse to know their player fouls and to be watching the scorers table for verification of numbers, without a book at the table its asking for trouble.  But even with a book at the table I'm not sure it would have mattered in this case.  Truthfully I didn't think LaCrosse protested hard enough.

I wasn't at the game, but I understand THIS requires some discussion:

05:15   Foul by SCHRADLE,ZACH   -   
05:15   Technical Foul by TEAM   -   
05:15      -   CARLSON,CHAD missed free throw
05:15      -   TEAM deadball rebound
05:15      -   CARLSON,CHAD missed free throw
05:15      -   TEAM deadball rebound
05:15      66-68   RAY,TEDDY made free throw
05:15      66-69   RAY,TEDDY made free throw
05:15   FRITZ,AUSTIN made layup   68-69   
05:02      68-71   STUIVE,CODY made dunk

The technical foul was on the LaCrosse coach for pounding the table about 3 feet away from Wallace Whitfield.  Whitfield is probably the #1 wrong official in the MIAA to do that in front of, a lot of others would have let it go given the situation.  He was a coach that had apparently been warned earlier (not verified), so that probably factored into the 'T'.  Hope missed both ft's so it didn't matter, a kind of "ball don't lie" moment.



The argument that Schradle being on the floor would have made a difference is a tough one.  I probably agree it did but its a tough argument.  Lax had 7 possessions after the foul-out, one of them an inconsequential possession down 5 with 9 seconds left.  The previous 6 they scored points on 4 of those possessions.  Hope had 8 and scored on 5 of those and Hope had been coming on the last 10 minutes of the game anyway.   I think the argument for Schradle making a difference is maybe a rebounding and defensive one and that's tougher to quantify in just a 5 minute slot.  Hope had one big offensive rebound put-back that ultimately sealed the deal.   So maybe, maybe not.


The running play-by-play available now is likely an edited version after the fact so that Hope's SID can match the fouls as they were recorded in the book.  Statcrew programs are not official, the book is official and SID's will go back through their PBP to match the book and box score with video.  Without knowing exactly what Alan Babbitt saw on video its difficult to know exactly when or how the error occurred.

Not the best situation for anyone and I'm sure Hope doesn't feel great about it and would feel hard done by had it happened to them on the road.


I can say in 25+ years watching D3 games I can't recall this happening that wasn't corrected in game.  My overall opinion as a basketball fan and watcher is that LaCrosse (and all teams) should have a scorer at the table.  I understand its difficult in D3 to have that extra traveling person, particularly on a long 3 day road trip like LaCrosse.  But as Pat Coleman told me last night, not having your own book at the table is opening yourself up to exactly what happened last night.


PS   There's a wonderful woman who sits high above DeVos who keeps her own book, as good as any official one, and she had 4 fouls.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

At last year's Hoopsville Tournament Salisbury got an extra two points during their game against Southern Vermont, which no one caught and SVC didn't have someone at the table doing book.  There were another set of problems involved, but having a book at the table would've caught the error when it occurred - by the time SVC noticed and appealed, no one knew when the problem occurred and there was no way to check.  Salsibury ended up winning by 1.  SVC had missed the NCAA Tournament the year before because of a weak SOS - so they were livid, understandably.  They did end up winning their conference that year, so it didn't ultimately matter, but some might argue that win got Salisbury into the tournament where they would've had a much weaker Pool C case without it.

Have someone doing the book at the table - even if it's the coach's 12 year old daughter.  Someone should be double checking what happens there.

[Gregory Sager]

Smart coaching staffs stay in communication with the official scorer, and will have an assistant coach walk over to the table during a timeout or an extended stoppage in order to double-check personal fouls. At NPU one of the tasks of the graduate assistant is to track timeouts, team fouls, and personal fouls on a printout designed for that purpose. A cardinal rule of coaching is to never trust that what you see on the scoreboard is the truth; as sac said, the only truth is what's found in the official scorebook.

I used to keep the book for North Park's men's and women's teams, and I still do so for NPU JV games. I respect coaching staffs that check with me in order to stay on top of timeouts and fouls. And, even though I'm not required to do so, I always pay coaches the courtesy of informing them when one of their players has reached four fouls.