MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[oldknight]

True story from the days when my daughters played high school basketball with a certain future D3 POY at Hope College. At that time I normally took the scorebook for my daughters' team at road games. During one of them, the official correctly called a common foul on #23 of the home team and then handed the ball to my daughter along the sideline so that the visitors could resume play with the ball. As she was in the process of inbounding, the announcer noted the foul was on #23 and then he then mentioned the offending person's name--but naming #23 of the visiting team. I wasn't entirely engaged at the moment and it caught me off guard, took me a second, but I then loudly yelled "NOOO" down the scorer's table. The ref actually heard me and stopped the action to check what was up. Turns out the official scorer had looked at wrong side of the scorebook and given the foul to #23 of the visiting team, a fine young lady with an excellent mother I know well. If I'm not doing the scorebook, that's an error likely to be uncorrected.

[ziggy]

True story from the days when my daughters played high school basketball with a certain future D3 POY at Hope College. At that time I normally took the scorebook for my daughters' team at road games. During one of them, the official correctly called a common foul on #23 of the home team and then handed the ball to my daughter along the sideline so that the visitors could resume play with the ball. As she was in the process of inbounding, the announcer noted the foul was on #23 and then he then mentioned the offending person's name--but naming #23 of the visiting team. I wasn't entirely engaged at the moment and it caught me off guard, took me a second, but I then loudly yelled "NOOO" down the scorer's table. The ref actually heard me and stopped the action to check what was up. Turns out the official scorer had looked at wrong side of the scorebook and given the foul to #23 of the visiting team, a fine young lady with an excellent mother I know well. If I'm not doing the scorebook, that's an error likely to be uncorrected.

[HopeConvert]

True story from the days when my daughters played high school basketball with a certain future D3 POY at Hope College. At that time I normally took the scorebook for my daughters' team at road games. During one of them, the official correctly called a common foul on #23 of the home team and then handed the ball to my daughter along the sideline so that the visitors could resume play with the ball. As she was in the process of inbounding, the announcer noted the foul was on #23 and then he then mentioned the offending person's name--but naming #23 of the visiting team. I wasn't entirely engaged at the moment and it caught me off guard, took me a second, but I then loudly yelled "NOOO" down the scorer's table. The ref actually heard me and stopped the action to check what was up. Turns out the official scorer had looked at wrong side of the scorebook and given the foul to #23 of the visiting team, a fine young lady with an excellent mother I know well. If I'm not doing the scorebook, that's an error likely to be uncorrected.

[oldknight]

True story from the days when my daughters played high school basketball with a certain future D3 POY at Hope College. At that time I normally took the scorebook for my daughters' team at road games. During one of them, the official correctly called a common foul on #23 of the home team and then handed the ball to my daughter along the sideline so that the visitors could resume play with the ball. As she was in the process of inbounding, the announcer noted the foul was on #23 and then he then mentioned the offending person's name--but naming #23 of the visiting team. I wasn't entirely engaged at the moment and it caught me off guard, took me a second, but I then loudly yelled "NOOO" down the scorer's table. The ref actually heard me and stopped the action to check what was up. Turns out the official scorer had looked at wrong side of the scorebook and given the foul to #23 of the visiting team, a fine young lady with an excellent mother I know well. If I'm not doing the scorebook, that's an error likely to be uncorrected.

I've been accused of doing a lot of stupid things in my life (most of them with justification), but never of being a helicopter parent. Until today.   I would have done the same for your daughter.

[HopeConvert]

True story from the days when my daughters played high school basketball with a certain future D3 POY at Hope College. At that time I normally took the scorebook for my daughters' team at road games. During one of them, the official correctly called a common foul on #23 of the home team and then handed the ball to my daughter along the sideline so that the visitors could resume play with the ball. As she was in the process of inbounding, the announcer noted the foul was on #23 and then he then mentioned the offending person's name--but naming #23 of the visiting team. I wasn't entirely engaged at the moment and it caught me off guard, took me a second, but I then loudly yelled "NOOO" down the scorer's table. The ref actually heard me and stopped the action to check what was up. Turns out the official scorer had looked at wrong side of the scorebook and given the foul to #23 of the visiting team, a fine young lady with an excellent mother I know well. If I'm not doing the scorebook, that's an error likely to be uncorrected.

I've been accused of doing a lot of stupid things in my life (most of them with justification), but never of being a helicopter parent. Until today.   I would have done the same for your daughter.

I would have let my daughter foul out and then use it as a lesson about the general unfairness of life and the general incompetence of officials.

[iwumichigander]

Smart coaching staffs stay in communication with the official scorer, and will have an assistant coach walk over to the table during a timeout or an extended stoppage in order to double-check personal fouls. At NPU one of the tasks of the graduate assistant is to track timeouts, team fouls, and personal fouls on a printout designed for that purpose. A cardinal rule of coaching is to never trust that what you see on the scoreboard is the truth; as sac said, the only truth is what's found in the official scorebook.

I used to keep the book for North Park's men's and women's teams, and I still do so for NPU JV games. I respect coaching staffs that check with me in order to stay on top of timeouts and fouls. And, even though I'm not required to do so, I always pay coaches the courtesy of informing them when one of their players has reached four fouls.

having spent time at the scorer's table, there usually is a little "chant" that goes on between those at the table a sort of verification ritual to get the book right.  Good official scorers will sometimes call out what they are recording or question fellow table members if the scorer thinks may have missed something.  A visiting team not having someone at the table, even if the stat person is usually making a mistake.  Official scorers do make mistakes but not often.

[arena]

True story from the days when my daughters played high school basketball with a certain future D3 POY at Hope College. At that time I normally took the scorebook for my daughters' team at road games. During one of them, the official correctly called a common foul on #23 of the home team and then handed the ball to my daughter along the sideline so that the visitors could resume play with the ball. As she was in the process of inbounding, the announcer noted the foul was on #23 and then he then mentioned the offending person's name--but naming #23 of the visiting team. I wasn't entirely engaged at the moment and it caught me off guard, took me a second, but I then loudly yelled "NOOO" down the scorer's table. The ref actually heard me and stopped the action to check what was up. Turns out the official scorer had looked at wrong side of the scorebook and given the foul to #23 of the visiting team, a fine young lady with an excellent mother I know well. If I'm not doing the scorebook, that's an error likely to be uncorrected.

I've been accused of doing a lot of stupid things in my life (most of them with justification), but never of being a helicopter parent. Until today.   I would have done the same for your daughter.

I would have let my daughter foul out and then use it as a lesson about the general unfairness of life and the general incompetence of officials.

I actually laughed out loud to this comment.

[oldknight]

True story from the days when my daughters played high school basketball with a certain future D3 POY at Hope College. At that time I normally took the scorebook for my daughters' team at road games. During one of them, the official correctly called a common foul on #23 of the home team and then handed the ball to my daughter along the sideline so that the visitors could resume play with the ball. As she was in the process of inbounding, the announcer noted the foul was on #23 and then he then mentioned the offending person's name--but naming #23 of the visiting team. I wasn't entirely engaged at the moment and it caught me off guard, took me a second, but I then loudly yelled "NOOO" down the scorer's table. The ref actually heard me and stopped the action to check what was up. Turns out the official scorer had looked at wrong side of the scorebook and given the foul to #23 of the visiting team, a fine young lady with an excellent mother I know well. If I'm not doing the scorebook, that's an error likely to be uncorrected.

I've been accused of doing a lot of stupid things in my life (most of them with justification), but never of being a helicopter parent. Until today.   I would have done the same for your daughter.

I would have let my daughter foul out and then use it as a lesson about the general unfairness of life and the general incompetence of officials.

What are you? A Dutch Calvinist or something? When I was in grade school, I complained to my mother when my teacher unfairly punished me based on bad information. Mom was unmoved. She simply told me "Well, that just makes up for all the times she could have punished you but you got away with it." True story.

[Mr. Ypsi]

True story from the days when my daughters played high school basketball with a certain future D3 POY at Hope College. At that time I normally took the scorebook for my daughters' team at road games. During one of them, the official correctly called a common foul on #23 of the home team and then handed the ball to my daughter along the sideline so that the visitors could resume play with the ball. As she was in the process of inbounding, the announcer noted the foul was on #23 and then he then mentioned the offending person's name--but naming #23 of the visiting team. I wasn't entirely engaged at the moment and it caught me off guard, took me a second, but I then loudly yelled "NOOO" down the scorer's table. The ref actually heard me and stopped the action to check what was up. Turns out the official scorer had looked at wrong side of the scorebook and given the foul to #23 of the visiting team, a fine young lady with an excellent mother I know well. If I'm not doing the scorebook, that's an error likely to be uncorrected.

I've been accused of doing a lot of stupid things in my life (most of them with justification), but never of being a helicopter parent. Until today.   I would have done the same for your daughter.

I would have let my daughter foul out and then use it as a lesson about the general unfairness of life and the general incompetence of officials.

What are you? A Dutch Calvinist or something? When I was in grade school, I complained to my mother when my teacher unfairly punished me based on bad information. Mom was unmoved. She simply told me "Well, that just makes up for all the times she could have punished you but you got away with it." True story.

Don't even have to be a Dutch Calvinist to have had that experience!  My mom used almost exactly the same line with me - she wasn't Dutch or Calvinist, but she WAS a substitute teacher!

One of my favorite stories was when a kid acted up.  She said "Bobby (or whatever his name was), do you want me to tell your mom what you did?"  "You know my mom?!"  "Yes, and I know your grandma, too."  She never had trouble with anyone in that class again!

[maroonandgold]

In the absence of a regular contributor from Kalamazoo C I'll point out that KC lost to St. Francis last night.  I thought they might have enough experience and size to be fairly competitive this year, but so far they are 2 wins and 5 losses.  They shot over 50% and shot 3s well, too.  It appears they did well in every category but turnovers and points scored off turnovers, and that is where they lost.  Josh Miller scored 10 and apparently rebounded well, and Adam Dykema scored 17.  They had two subs that both shot 3 out or 4 and contributed 8 and 9 points.  So they are getting some help from the bench.

[sac]

In the absence of a regular contributor from Kalamazoo C I'll point out that KC lost to St. Francis last night.  I thought they might have enough experience and size to be fairly competitive this year, but so far they are 2 wins and 5 losses.  They shot over 50% and shot 3s well, too.  It appears they did well in every category but turnovers and points scored off turnovers, and that is where they lost.  Josh Miller scored 10 and apparently rebounded well, and Adam Dykema scored 17.  They had two subs that both shot 3 out or 4 and contributed 8 and 9 points.  So they are getting some help from the bench.

In terms of efficiency, Kalamazoo is right with the middle 5 teams in the league (Trine, Albion, Alma, Calvin, Kzoo), just hasn't translated into wins.  That may not last but they're in the picture even at just 2-5.   (That might say more about the middle of the league right now though)

Having Dickerson available would make a difference, maybe only one more win though.


Right now, and probably a week or two to early, the MIAA breaks down like this using efficiency

1.  Hope
----------------
2.  Trine
3.  Cal
4.  Kzo
5.  Alb
6.  Alma
----------------
7.  Adrian
8.  Olivet

The gap between 1 and the middle is enormous and probably not a true representation of things, but its concerning (unless you're a Hope fan).  Hopefully it closes one way or another (or hopefully not if you're a Hope fan)

[sac]

Trine plays host to Great Lakes Christian tonight, the 0-14 fighting Lakes have not lost a game by less than 30 points this year unless you are Andrews or Maranatha Baptist.

http://www.glcc.edu/athletics/mens-basketball/


Bad basketball enthusiasts will be interested to know the GLCC women's program won a game over Andrews 60-48.  I'm pretty certain that's the first time their women have won a game, and scored 60 points, and scored more than 50 points, and scored more than 40 points.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

At last year's Hoopsville Tournament Salisbury got an extra two points during their game against Southern Vermont, which no one caught and SVC didn't have someone at the table doing book.  There were another set of problems involved, but having a book at the table would've caught the error when it occurred - by the time SVC noticed and appealed, no one knew when the problem occurred and there was no way to check.  Salsibury ended up winning by 1.  SVC had missed the NCAA Tournament the year before because of a weak SOS - so they were livid, understandably.  They did end up winning their conference that year, so it didn't ultimately matter, but some might argue that win got Salisbury into the tournament where they would've had a much weaker Pool C case without it.

Have someone doing the book at the table - even if it's the coach's 12 year old daughter.  Someone should be double checking what happens there.

It was crazier than that... a single point was rewarded to Salisbury that should have gone to Southern Vermont (making it a two-point swing)... but because it was a single-point, it was hard to figure out where it was misplaced... and I assume to this day the young lady put a FT for SVC into SAL's side of the book.

Now, I would argue that Salisbury's Pool C case was a bit stronger as you pointed out, but SVC might not have had the first or second round match up they got had they had an extra win.

To add to "my" bad luck last season: we had another official scorer (actual official scorer) reward a woman a three when it was a two at the D3hoops.com Classic last December. Everyone in the building (practically) INCLUDING the team, who benefited from the extra point, SID staff tried to correct the woman. The officials were called over three times, I believe, but the woman would not correct the mistake insisting that it was a three-point shot. We have video, but weren't set-up to give refs replays of any kind (even of the stream). The game ended up being tied at the end of regulation with the rewarded team hitting a shot to force OT. SMH I needed a stiff drink after that one. Heard from the opposing coach for weeks after that (as with Hoopsville) - justifiably so.

[Gregory Sager]

Trine plays host to Great Lakes Christian tonight, the 0-14 fighting Lakes have not lost a game by less than 30 points this year unless you are Andrews or Maranatha Baptist.

Boy, I'd hate to have to fight a lake. How do you win, unless you're one of the five Chinese brothers?

[KnightSlappy]

In the absence of a regular contributor from Kalamazoo C I'll point out that KC lost to St. Francis last night.  I thought they might have enough experience and size to be fairly competitive this year, but so far they are 2 wins and 5 losses.  They shot over 50% and shot 3s well, too.  It appears they did well in every category but turnovers and points scored off turnovers, and that is where they lost.  Josh Miller scored 10 and apparently rebounded well, and Adam Dykema scored 17.  They had two subs that both shot 3 out or 4 and contributed 8 and 9 points.  So they are getting some help from the bench.

In terms of efficiency, Kalamazoo is right with the middle 5 teams in the league (Trine, Albion, Alma, Calvin, Kzoo), just hasn't translated into wins.  That may not last but they're in the picture even at just 2-5.   (That might say more about the middle of the league right now though)

Having Dickerson available would make a difference, maybe only one more win though.


Right now, and probably a week or two to early, the MIAA breaks down like this using efficiency

1.  Hope
----------------
2.  Trine
3.  Cal
4.  Kzo
5.  Alb
6.  Alma
----------------
7.  Adrian
8.  Olivet

The gap between 1 and the middle is enormous and probably not a true representation of things, but its concerning (unless you're a Hope fan).  Hopefully it closes one way or another (or hopefully not if you're a Hope fan)

I have Adrian much higher when considering only D3 vs. D3 competition. http://detroitjockcity.com/division-iii-mens-basketball-efficiency-ratings/

Still, not good for the MIAA. D3 ranks:

3 Hope
---
110 Adrian
---
206 Calvin
227 Albion
249 Trine
---
304 Alma
---
334 Kalamazoo
411 Olivet