MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[KnightSlappy]

As one who has run video productions with video review available for several years, the elbow to the head is SOP to be reviewed. Most times it is called a flagrant, but sometimes it is not depending on the circumstances (or they notice it wasn't the head despite the defender's "reaction").

Also one to keep in mind is the "sphere" rule. If a player has a ball say on a rebound and defender(s) encroaches and enters the offensive player's sphere to either draw a foul or get hit with an elbow (i.e. flagrant), the call actually now goes against the defender. They have to give the offensive player a sphere of space around them. That has cut down on some of the elbow calls that have gone against the offensive player when they shouldn't have been (still can't throw your elbows around to clear more space than what your sphere allows).

The "elbow to the head" play is here, if anyone is interested. It certainly was not flagrant. Video should start at the 35:35 mark.

https://youtu.be/g0BAJBK7ni8?t=35m35s

[HopeConvert]

You can't give up 20 offensive boards and expect to win. Granted, a lot of those were long rebounds over bad misses, but if you have fewer defensive rebounds than your opponent has offensive rebounds, it's game over.

I've said all along this is a pretty mediocre Hope team with limited depth. They've risen to the top of a weak league. I can't say Saturday's outcome surprised me, but it still makes me shake my head that these two programs are playing at this level.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

As one who has run video productions with video review available for several years, the elbow to the head is SOP to be reviewed. Most times it is called a flagrant, but sometimes it is not depending on the circumstances (or they notice it wasn't the head despite the defender's "reaction").

Also one to keep in mind is the "sphere" rule. If a player has a ball say on a rebound and defender(s) encroaches and enters the offensive player's sphere to either draw a foul or get hit with an elbow (i.e. flagrant), the call actually now goes against the defender. They have to give the offensive player a sphere of space around them. That has cut down on some of the elbow calls that have gone against the offensive player when they shouldn't have been (still can't throw your elbows around to clear more space than what your sphere allows).

The "elbow to the head" play is here, if anyone is interested. It certainly was not flagrant. Video should start at the 35:35 mark.

https://youtu.be/g0BAJBK7ni8?t=35m35s

I believe by definition that is the right call. That doesn't apply to the sphere rule as I understand it... and the offensive player went back a second time with the elbow and made contact with the head. I can see that being called a flagrant. The sphere rule has those situations in mind as best as I understand it, but I don't believe it goes into affect there.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Per the rule book:

Flagrant 1:
Illegal contact caused by swinging of an elbow that is deemed excessive or unnecessary but does not rise to the level of a flagrant 2 personal foul (see Rule 4-18.7)

Rule 4-18.7 The following shall be considered not only excessive, but extreme swinging:
a. When arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arm(s) and elbow(s) exceeds that of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot; or
b. When the speed and vigor with which the arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung is such that injury could result if another player were contacted.

Section 13. Elbow(s)
Art. 1. It is a violation when a player excessively swings his arm(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.
Art. 2. A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body.
Art. 3. Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movement as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to faking with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

Section 1. Article 15
Illegal contact caused by the swinging of the elbow(s) that:
a. Results from total body movement is a common or flagrant 1 personal foul
b. Is excessive per Rule 4-18.7 is a flagrant 2 foul.
c. Occurs above or below the shoulders of an opponent is a common, flagrant 1 or flagrant 2 personal foul

[HOPEful]

This one felt more flagrant to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0BAJBK7ni8&feature=youtu.be&t=124m53s

[Flying Dutch Fan]

You can't give up 20 offensive boards and expect to win. Granted, a lot of those were long rebounds over bad misses, but if you have fewer defensive rebounds than your opponent has offensive rebounds, it's game over.

I've said all along this is a pretty mediocre Hope team with limited depth. They've risen to the top of a weak league. I can't say Saturday's outcome surprised me, but it still makes me shake my head that these two programs are playing at this level.

Some days your pessimistic assessments of Hope's team just makes me chuckle.  Did they play a poor game on Saturday, you bet they did.  Are they mediocre - not even in the same time zone

[Flying Dutch Fan]

This one felt more flagrant to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0BAJBK7ni8&feature=youtu.be&t=124m53s

Certainly hard to argue that wasn't an intentional foul.  Had it been a breakaway layup and that happened, you can bet they call it intentional.

[Hopester]

This one felt more flagrant to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0BAJBK7ni8&feature=youtu.be&t=124m53s

Beyond it being potentially an intentional foul call, it also appears it should have been 3 shots instead of 2. Ref clearly signals a shooting foul, and based on this image, Chad appears to have his feet behind the arc when fouled and shooting. Flat out, we actually have the technology now, why wasn't this reviewed? Other plays were reviewed throughout the game, both of these would appear to be triggers for a potential review with 6 seconds left in OT.

[HopeConvert]

You can't give up 20 offensive boards and expect to win. Granted, a lot of those were long rebounds over bad misses, but if you have fewer defensive rebounds than your opponent has offensive rebounds, it's game over.

I've said all along this is a pretty mediocre Hope team with limited depth. They've risen to the top of a weak league. I can't say Saturday's outcome surprised me, but it still makes me shake my head that these two programs are playing at this level.

Some days your pessimistic assessments of Hope's team just makes me chuckle.  Did they play a poor game on Saturday, you bet they did.  Are they mediocre - not even in the same time zone

I respectfully disagree. This is not a particularly good team, and would not be competitive against a lot of the teams that Hope has had on the floor over the last dozen years.

[KnightSlappy]

This one felt more flagrant to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0BAJBK7ni8&feature=youtu.be&t=124m53s

Beyond it being potentially an intentional foul call, it also appears it should have been 3 shots instead of 2. Ref clearly signals a shooting foul, and based on this image, Chad appears to have his feet behind the arc when fouled and shooting. Flat out, we actually have the technology now, why wasn't this reviewed? Other plays were reviewed throughout the game, both of these would appear to be triggers for a potential review with 6 seconds left in OT.

If you want to Zapruder the film, there's no way this was even a shooting foul. Carlson clearly takes a dribble after the jersey is tugged and then proceeds with the desperation shot attempt.

[Hopester]

You can't give up 20 offensive boards and expect to win. Granted, a lot of those were long rebounds over bad misses, but if you have fewer defensive rebounds than your opponent has offensive rebounds, it's game over.

I've said all along this is a pretty mediocre Hope team with limited depth. They've risen to the top of a weak league. I can't say Saturday's outcome surprised me, but it still makes me shake my head that these two programs are playing at this level.

Some days your pessimistic assessments of Hope's team just makes me chuckle.  Did they play a poor game on Saturday, you bet they did.  Are they mediocre - not even in the same time zone

While this is a very pessimistic way to look at things, I don't know if anything that HC said is incorrect per se. In the last 10 years this would probably rank as the 5th best team that Hope has had (would be 7th if we went last 12 years), so by Hope's standards could be classified as mediocre. (This is all based on feel, I didn't look up any numbers).

You can either look at the glass as half full or half empty, but either way you look at it, you are still correct. 

[KnightSlappy]

You can't give up 20 offensive boards and expect to win. Granted, a lot of those were long rebounds over bad misses, but if you have fewer defensive rebounds than your opponent has offensive rebounds, it's game over.

I've said all along this is a pretty mediocre Hope team with limited depth. They've risen to the top of a weak league. I can't say Saturday's outcome surprised me, but it still makes me shake my head that these two programs are playing at this level.

Some days your pessimistic assessments of Hope's team just makes me chuckle.  Did they play a poor game on Saturday, you bet they did.  Are they mediocre - not even in the same time zone

While this is a very pessimistic way to look at things, I don't know if anything that HC said is incorrect per se. In the last 10 years this would probably rank as the 5th best team that Hope has had (would be 7th if we went last 12 years), so by Hope's standards could be classified as mediocre. (This is all based on feel, I didn't look up any numbers).

You can either look at the glass as half full or half empty, but either way you look at it, you are still correct.

There's a difference between a team that is mediocre by Hope and Calvin standards and a team that is mediocre by Division III basketball standards.

Both Hope and Calvin are above average -- D3 wide -- this season (Hope much more so than Calvin).

[Hopester]

This one felt more flagrant to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0BAJBK7ni8&feature=youtu.be&t=124m53s

Beyond it being potentially an intentional foul call, it also appears it should have been 3 shots instead of 2. Ref clearly signals a shooting foul, and based on this image, Chad appears to have his feet behind the arc when fouled and shooting. Flat out, we actually have the technology now, why wasn't this reviewed? Other plays were reviewed throughout the game, both of these would appear to be triggers for a potential review with 6 seconds left in OT.

If you want to Zapruder the film, there's no way this was even a shooting foul. Carlson is clearly takes a dribble after the jersey is tugged and then proceeds with the desperation shot attempt.

+k for the use of Zapruder as a verb.

So two errors by the ref for Calvin and one for Hope on one play. (The two for Hope were still reviewable by rule, I believe while the Calvin one was not).

To steal a quote from our President for this. "SAD!!!"

[HopeConvert]

You can't give up 20 offensive boards and expect to win. Granted, a lot of those were long rebounds over bad misses, but if you have fewer defensive rebounds than your opponent has offensive rebounds, it's game over.

I've said all along this is a pretty mediocre Hope team with limited depth. They've risen to the top of a weak league. I can't say Saturday's outcome surprised me, but it still makes me shake my head that these two programs are playing at this level.

Some days your pessimistic assessments of Hope's team just makes me chuckle.  Did they play a poor game on Saturday, you bet they did.  Are they mediocre - not even in the same time zone

While this is a very pessimistic way to look at things, I don't know if anything that HC said is incorrect per se. In the last 10 years this would probably rank as the 5th best team that Hope has had (would be 7th if we went last 12 years), so by Hope's standards could be classified as mediocre. (This is all based on feel, I didn't look up any numbers).

You can either look at the glass as half full or half empty, but either way you look at it, you are still correct.

Those rankings sound about right to me. The league is not good this year, so their record is better than it might otherwise be. It's not the weakest Hope squad I've seen, but it's far from the strongest. I don't take that judgment to be pessimism so much as realism. Does anyone, including FDF, expect Hope to make a run in the NCAA tourney this year? I'll bet a Twinburger we're not playing the second weekend.

[Hopester]

You can't give up 20 offensive boards and expect to win. Granted, a lot of those were long rebounds over bad misses, but if you have fewer defensive rebounds than your opponent has offensive rebounds, it's game over.

I've said all along this is a pretty mediocre Hope team with limited depth. They've risen to the top of a weak league. I can't say Saturday's outcome surprised me, but it still makes me shake my head that these two programs are playing at this level.

Some days your pessimistic assessments of Hope's team just makes me chuckle.  Did they play a poor game on Saturday, you bet they did.  Are they mediocre - not even in the same time zone

While this is a very pessimistic way to look at things, I don't know if anything that HC said is incorrect per se. In the last 10 years this would probably rank as the 5th best team that Hope has had (would be 7th if we went last 12 years), so by Hope's standards could be classified as mediocre. (This is all based on feel, I didn't look up any numbers).

You can either look at the glass as half full or half empty, but either way you look at it, you are still correct.

There's a difference between a team that is mediocre by Hope and Calvin standards and a team that is mediocre by Division III basketball standards.

Both Hope and Calvin are above average -- D3 wide -- this season (Hope much more so than Calvin).

Fair enough, and a lot of this is relative as well. This feels like a down year overall this year in D3, just talent wise and top end team wise, so relative to its field, this team is probably closer to elite than many of its predecessors that I feel were a bit better. (last year and 2011 for example)