MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

Pretty amazing shot from over on the East side of the state in the Class A regional semi's at Grand Blanc from a Rochester Hills Stoney Creek player
http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/video-local-high-schooler-sinks-incredible-highlight-reel-three-point-shot

[SBell]

We had 5 freshman play heavy minutes and ended up 4th, not sure how high school seniors would do better...

I guess the difference would be that those kids are at Alma, where as most of these high school players will go D1 or D2. 

I am just going to throw this out there, I think Grand Rapids Christian HS could win at least 10 games in the MIAA this season, maybe even win it.  Feel free to laugh at this and call it insane or impossible, but I don't think it is as crazy as it sounds.

This is indeed insane. 

I was able to watch this team play a few times this year when Calvin or Hope were not playing (have a good friend whose son is on the team). Really, they only have 2 players of said legit D1 caliber, which should disqualify the premise immediately (rather than "most" of their team), but I'll bite and play along in this game.

Now both of these young men happened to strike me as a bit "disinterested" in competing with intensity the times I did watch, not to mention not really appearing to pay too close of attention to coach instructions during timeouts. This lack of focus might not even get them past the quarterfinals next week, IF they even make it past a once-in-a-generation Holland West Ottawa squad in regionals, one with a more clear understanding of the "team" concept - and albeit one with maybe 4 "lesser" GLIAC-WHAC-MIAA caliber players.

Now catch them engaged on the right night (like the near quadruple double early in the season) or with the right matchups (like NOT a Kalamazoo Hornets squad with big beef that will draw them into early and often foul trouble), and hypothetically I'd buy winning 2-3 games in the bottom tier, over the course of a full 14-game slate.

But they would be no match for the Calvins, Trines, Almas, or Hopes of the world - with their superior depth and guard play (not to mention better free throw shooters).

Yes - ludicrous indeed!!

Grand Rapids Christian? They have three D1 players, not two: Tillman (MSU), Beck (Oakland) and Washington (double-digit D1 offers).

[sac]

Harrison Blackledge and Will Dixon were named to the NABC All-Great Lakes District team.  Harrison named player of the year.
http://nabc.com/NABC_Releases/2017/PDF/2017_NABC_Coaches-_Division_III_All-District_Teams_and_Coaches.pdf

[wiz]

We had 5 freshman play heavy minutes and ended up 4th, not sure how high school seniors would do better...

I guess the difference would be that those kids are at Alma, where as most of these high school players will go D1 or D2. 

I am just going to throw this out there, I think Grand Rapids Christian HS could win at least 10 games in the MIAA this season, maybe even win it.  Feel free to laugh at this and call it insane or impossible, but I don't think it is as crazy as it sounds.

This is indeed insane. 

I was able to watch this team play a few times this year when Calvin or Hope were not playing (have a good friend whose son is on the team). Really, they only have 2 players of said legit D1 caliber, which should disqualify the premise immediately (rather than "most" of their team), but I'll bite and play along in this game.

Now both of these young men happened to strike me as a bit "disinterested" in competing with intensity the times I did watch, not to mention not really appearing to pay too close of attention to coach instructions during timeouts. This lack of focus might not even get them past the quarterfinals next week, IF they even make it past a once-in-a-generation Holland West Ottawa squad in regionals, one with a more clear understanding of the "team" concept - and albeit one with maybe 4 "lesser" GLIAC-WHAC-MIAA caliber players.

Now catch them engaged on the right night (like the near quadruple double early in the season) or with the right matchups (like NOT a Kalamazoo Hornets squad with big beef that will draw them into early and often foul trouble), and hypothetically I'd buy winning 2-3 games in the bottom tier, over the course of a full 14-game slate.

But they would be no match for the Calvins, Trines, Almas, or Hopes of the world - with their superior depth and guard play (not to mention better free throw shooters).

Yes - ludicrous indeed!!

Grand Rapids Christian? They have three D1 players, not two: Tillman (MSU), Beck (Oakland) and Washington (double-digit D1 offers).

Grand Rapids Christian has an exceptional team with talented individuals and team depth.  But this talk of competing in the MIAA is all just a dream.  It is very common for fans of good teams to think their team can compete at the next level.  High School at DIII, DIII at DII, and so on.  Each step up the ladder is huge and even if a high school team played a DIII team and started on a 10-0 run, it is very unlikely it could be sustained.  This is like believing you can always hit your 7 iron the longest distance you have ever hit it.  I'm pulling out my 5 iron now for that shot.

[Young Knight 14]

We had 5 freshman play heavy minutes and ended up 4th, not sure how high school seniors would do better...

I guess the difference would be that those kids are at Alma, where as most of these high school players will go D1 or D2. 

I am just going to throw this out there, I think Grand Rapids Christian HS could win at least 10 games in the MIAA this season, maybe even win it.  Feel free to laugh at this and call it insane or impossible, but I don't think it is as crazy as it sounds.

This is indeed insane. 

I was able to watch this team play a few times this year when Calvin or Hope were not playing (have a good friend whose son is on the team). Really, they only have 2 players of said legit D1 caliber, which should disqualify the premise immediately (rather than "most" of their team), but I'll bite and play along in this game.

Now both of these young men happened to strike me as a bit "disinterested" in competing with intensity the times I did watch, not to mention not really appearing to pay too close of attention to coach instructions during timeouts. This lack of focus might not even get them past the quarterfinals next week, IF they even make it past a once-in-a-generation Holland West Ottawa squad in regionals, one with a more clear understanding of the "team" concept - and albeit one with maybe 4 "lesser" GLIAC-WHAC-MIAA caliber players.

Now catch them engaged on the right night (like the near quadruple double early in the season) or with the right matchups (like NOT a Kalamazoo Hornets squad with big beef that will draw them into early and often foul trouble), and hypothetically I'd buy winning 2-3 games in the bottom tier, over the course of a full 14-game slate.

But they would be no match for the Calvins, Trines, Almas, or Hopes of the world - with their superior depth and guard play (not to mention better free throw shooters).

Yes - ludicrous indeed!!

Grand Rapids Christian? They have three D1 players, not two: Tillman (MSU), Beck (Oakland) and Washington (double-digit D1 offers).

Grand Rapids Christian has an exceptional team with talented individuals and team depth.  But this talk of competing in the MIAA is all just a dream.  It is very common for fans of good teams to think their team can compete at the next level.  High School at DIII, DIII at DII, and so on.  Each step up the ladder is huge and even if a high school team played a DIII team and started on a 10-0 run, it is very unlikely it could be sustained.  This is like believing you can always hit your 7 iron the longest distance you have ever hit it.  I'm pulling out my 5 iron now for that shot.

Just for the record I am not a Grand Rapids Christian fan and have no ties to the school.  I just think that it's not impossible for the best HS team in the state to beat teams in a mid-tier D3 conference.  To your other point it's not uncommon for Calvin's volleyball team to beat D2 teams in spring ball and "hang with" lower level D1 teams.  So it's not impossible for a team to play up and win. I am probably wrong that they could win 10 games, but the MIAA, MI2A, MI double A conversation was in need of a topic change.

[ziggy]

Just for the record I am not a Grand Rapids Christian fan and have no ties to the school.  I just think that it's not impossible for the best HS team in the state to beat teams in a mid-tier D3 conference.  To your other point it's not uncommon for Calvin's volleyball team to beat D2 teams in spring ball and "hang with" lower level D1 teams.  So it's not impossible for a team to play up and win. I am probably wrong that they could win 10 games, but the MIAA, MI2A, MI double A conversation was in need of a topic change.

I think where you're going to lose most people is with the ten win number. Big difference between competing with/hanging with and being at a level that will win ten conference games. For ten wins you're basically talking about sweeping the bottom half and splitting with the top half - that's just straight up being better than most of the league.

[HopeKnight]

HS v D3 - another factor is that some of the current MIAA players right now if they were this size and this good & were only 18 years old would probably be D1 recruits.

As an example - Hope players: Hawkins, Stuive & Blackledge all would probably be considered low level D1 recruits, if they had their current skill set & size. They could be bench players at a D2 or D1 school. Look at guys like Spike Albrecht - he played at Michigan (now Purdue) and would be excellent in the MIAA but wouldn't be amazing in D3 or D2. A lot has to do with the program and the needs of the team. 

That said, 3 current high level D1 recruits in HS would probably win most of the games while 18 year old mid-level to low-level D1 recruits would probably lose.

[Young Knight 14]

Just for the record I am not a Grand Rapids Christian fan and have no ties to the school.  I just think that it's not impossible for the best HS team in the state to beat teams in a mid-tier D3 conference.  To your other point it's not uncommon for Calvin's volleyball team to beat D2 teams in spring ball and "hang with" lower level D1 teams.  So it's not impossible for a team to play up and win. I am probably wrong that they could win 10 games, but the MIAA, MI2A, MI double A conversation was in need of a topic change.

I think where you're going to lose most people is with the ten win number. Big difference between competing with/hanging with and being at a level that will win ten conference games. For ten wins you're basically talking about sweeping the bottom half and splitting with the top half - that's just straight up being better than most of the league.

I agree, maybe I should have said 5.

[knight4life]

Just for the record I am not a Grand Rapids Christian fan and have no ties to the school.  I just think that it's not impossible for the best HS team in the state to beat teams in a mid-tier D3 conference.  To your other point it's not uncommon for Calvin's volleyball team to beat D2 teams in spring ball and "hang with" lower level D1 teams.  So it's not impossible for a team to play up and win. I am probably wrong that they could win 10 games, but the MIAA, MI2A, MI double A conversation was in need of a topic change.

I think where you're going to lose most people is with the ten win number. Big difference between competing with/hanging with and being at a level that will win ten conference games. For ten wins you're basically talking about sweeping the bottom half and splitting with the top half - that's just straight up being better than most of the league.

You have to believe that this year in the MIAA they sweep Olivet and Adrian. I think they also win at least one game against Alma, Albion, Kalamazoo. They also have a chance against Trine and Calvin. I think they get to 8 wins this year and get to the MIAA tourney.

[ziggy]

Just for the record I am not a Grand Rapids Christian fan and have no ties to the school.  I just think that it's not impossible for the best HS team in the state to beat teams in a mid-tier D3 conference.  To your other point it's not uncommon for Calvin's volleyball team to beat D2 teams in spring ball and "hang with" lower level D1 teams.  So it's not impossible for a team to play up and win. I am probably wrong that they could win 10 games, but the MIAA, MI2A, MI double A conversation was in need of a topic change.

I think where you're going to lose most people is with the ten win number. Big difference between competing with/hanging with and being at a level that will win ten conference games. For ten wins you're basically talking about sweeping the bottom half and splitting with the top half - that's just straight up being better than most of the league.

You have to believe that this year in the MIAA they sweep Olivet and Adrian. I think they also win at least one game against Alma, Albion, Kalamazoo. They also have a chance against Trine and Calvin. I think they get to 8 wins this year and get to the MIAA tourney.

You must not be talking about the Calvin dorm team, because there is no way they would beat the Calvin dorm team.

[Pat Coleman]

Just for the record I am not a Grand Rapids Christian fan and have no ties to the school.  I just think that it's not impossible for the best HS team in the state to beat teams in a mid-tier D3 conference.  To your other point it's not uncommon for Calvin's volleyball team to beat D2 teams in spring ball and "hang with" lower level D1 teams.  So it's not impossible for a team to play up and win. I am probably wrong that they could win 10 games, but the MIAA, MI2A, MI double A conversation was in need of a topic change.

There's a difference between "playing up" and what you describe. You're talking about two teams at the same age/grade level, after all, give or take a year for redshirting. What you describe would be Villanova MBB beating an NBA team.

While I'm not naive enough to think that it's impossible that the best HS basketball teams could indeed beat some of D-III's worst, I do think a team of 16-18 year-olds playing 40 minutes against a team of 18-22 year-olds has inherent disadvantages in terms of strength, stamina and experience, even where some of its players might have an advantages in terms of raw talent.

[Young Knight 14]

Just for the record I am not a Grand Rapids Christian fan and have no ties to the school.  I just think that it's not impossible for the best HS team in the state to beat teams in a mid-tier D3 conference.  To your other point it's not uncommon for Calvin's volleyball team to beat D2 teams in spring ball and "hang with" lower level D1 teams.  So it's not impossible for a team to play up and win. I am probably wrong that they could win 10 games, but the MIAA, MI2A, MI double A conversation was in need of a topic change.

There's a difference between "playing up" and what you describe. You're talking about two teams at the same age/grade level, after all, give or take a year for redshirting. What you describe would be Villanova MBB beating an NBA team.

While I'm not naive enough to think that it's impossible that the best HS basketball teams could indeed beat some of D-III's worst, I do think a team of 16-18 year-olds playing 40 minutes against a team of 18-22 year-olds has inherent disadvantages in terms of strength, stamina and experience, even where some of its players might have an advantages in terms of raw talent.

I get what you are saying I was just responding to the post talking about playing up a division.  As for the Villanova analogy, it would be more like them playing a D-League team.

[knightvision]

We had 5 freshman play heavy minutes and ended up 4th, not sure how high school seniors would do better...

I guess the difference would be that those kids are at Alma, where as most of these high school players will go D1 or D2. 

I am just going to throw this out there, I think Grand Rapids Christian HS could win at least 10 games in the MIAA this season, maybe even win it.  Feel free to laugh at this and call it insane or impossible, but I don't think it is as crazy as it sounds.

This is indeed insane. 

I was able to watch this team play a few times this year when Calvin or Hope were not playing (have a good friend whose son is on the team). Really, they only have 2 players of said legit D1 caliber, which should disqualify the premise immediately (rather than "most" of their team), but I'll bite and play along in this game.

Now both of these young men happened to strike me as a bit "disinterested" in competing with intensity the times I did watch, not to mention not really appearing to pay too close of attention to coach instructions during timeouts. This lack of focus might not even get them past the quarterfinals next week, IF they even make it past a once-in-a-generation Holland West Ottawa squad in regionals, one with a more clear understanding of the "team" concept - and albeit one with maybe 4 "lesser" GLIAC-WHAC-MIAA caliber players.

Now catch them engaged on the right night (like the near quadruple double early in the season) or with the right matchups (like NOT a Kalamazoo Hornets squad with big beef that will draw them into early and often foul trouble), and hypothetically I'd buy winning 2-3 games in the bottom tier, over the course of a full 14-game slate.

But they would be no match for the Calvins, Trines, Almas, or Hopes of the world - with their superior depth and guard play (not to mention better free throw shooters).

Yes - ludicrous indeed!!

Grand Rapids Christian? They have three D1 players, not two: Tillman (MSU), Beck (Oakland) and Washington (double-digit D1 offers).

Grand Rapids Christian has an exceptional team with talented individuals and team depth.  But this talk of competing in the MIAA is all just a dream.  It is very common for fans of good teams to think their team can compete at the next level.  High School at DIII, DIII at DII, and so on.  Each step up the ladder is huge and even if a high school team played a DIII team and started on a 10-0 run, it is very unlikely it could be sustained.  This is like believing you can always hit your 7 iron the longest distance you have ever hit it.  I'm pulling out my 5 iron now for that shot.

Several decades ago I brought a 9th grader to play summer pick-up ball at Calvin prior to my senior year.  I told people then and I tell them now that he probably could have started for Calvin at that time.  Like Tillman, he ended up at MSU.  Some of you might be familiar with a guy by the name of Matt Steigenga.... I can recall trying to guard him 1 summer later after I graduated (when he was 16) and can vividly recall being dunked on in a way that never occurred in my 4 years at Calvin.  Whole different level....

Many valid points have been made about the challenges that a team like GRC (or any high school team for that matter) would have in the MIAA.  I have not seen GRC play this year, but I did catch a decent number of MIAA games this year, and as others have noted it wasn't a particularly great year for the league.  With a high major D1 guy like Tillman, two other D1 kids, at least 1 MIAA player in Warners, and some depth that others have referred to, I have little doubt that they could compete in the MIAA.  I recognize it's a team game, but a slightly different way to think about this is to ask yourself who on your favorite MIAA team is going to match up and be able to stay in front of these guys?  With the way the game has changed as a result of the 3-pointer (more emphasis on spacing, cutting down on the hand checking, etc.), the game to me seems like it it increasingly about exploiting individual match-ups.  Seems like you might have at least one or two right off the bat that you could potentially take advantage of...

Without even having seen GRC, I would happily and willingly bet that they would win more than 2-3 games in the league this year.  If forced to pick a record, I would guess 6-8.  I wouldn't be surprised by 4-10, and would find it highly unlikely (but not completely impossible) that they could win 10.  Quite frankly they would probably welcome college officiating, because it is way more like the AAU ball many of them have played.  I don't think these kids would be too intimidated playing against MIAA guys when they have spent their AAU seasons competing against plenty of guys you will be seeing next year when you watch DI hoops on TV.  Don't kid yourselves--the disparity in athleticism between the majority of D1 guys (even while still in high school) and the vast majority of D3 kids (even upperclassmen) is pretty great.  And the number of rail thin high school players who show up in college looking more like boys than men, particularly at the D1 level, is diminishing rapidly with all the emphasis on weightlifting in high school.  The "physical" gap between high schooler's and college players is as small as it has ever been IMHO...

[HopeKnight]

Hope Starters: (lot of opportunity)

Highly doubtful that either Lewis or McGivney will start - Riley Lewis is very small & light (5'10'' 150) and will probably be a low minute sub as a sophomore and maybe a little more in his junior or senior year & McGivney will be a backup 4/5 for Towns. Coach Mitchell needs versatile & strong players that play multiple positions on offense and are able to switch and play defense. Neither Lewis or McGivney have that versatility especially on the defensive end. Calvin beat Hope twice with depth and size & weight at almost every position and Hope is smaller next year. Calvin will be solid and will have size and strength at almost all positions again - Hope will need to be bigger and stronger to beat them next year.

Look for Hawkins (PG) & Towns (F/C) to be the locks to start and possibly Teddy Ray as a stretch 4. There will be battles for the remaining positions (2 & 3) and the other three rotation positions by Matt Zandstra JV 21 ppg 65 threes (6'2 175) & FR Sam Tilden (6'3 185) & FR Max Gaishan (6'7 smooth shooting lefty) along with possibly McGivney & Ritsema & Smith & Morrison. Summer development will be huge for Hope but the team should still be very competitive and by mid-season will be very good again. Hawkins may be a D3 All-American.

Question for Hope fans:  in addition to Hawkins, who do you see as a lock to start next year for the Dutchmen?

G-Hawkins
G-Riley Lewis
C-Robert McGivney
F-Teddy Ray
F-Dennis Towns

Bench
G-Pete Smith
G-Luke Dreyer
Freshman from Lansing Christian
Freshman - Bill Woodhams
Freshman - Sam Tilden
F-Ben Ritsema - JV
G-Matt Zandstra - JV
F-Adam Reed - JV

[wiz]

As an example - Hope players: Hawkins, Stuive & Blackledge all would probably be considered low level D1 recruits, if they had their current skill set & size. They could be bench players at a D2 or D1 school. Look at guys like Spike Albrecht - he played at Michigan (now Purdue) and would be excellent in the MIAA but wouldn't be amazing in D3 or D2. A lot has to do with the program and the needs of the team. 

This is really interesting and I can relate.  Many years ago I missed out on being an NBA player by a foot.  I was told if I was 7'1" instead of 6'1" that I would have been drafted for sure.