MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the red light on the backboard has priority over the horn or the clock technically as far as official determining the end of the game. I feel like this was brought up in the last few years in a D1 game.

I'm not sure if anyone saw the Minnesota/Wisconsin game the other night, but Minnesota's best player, Jordan Murphy, fouled out on a very similar foul call where it was deemed he undercut the shooter. Those calls are brutally tough to make even with the help of replay. That argument of who is entitled to that space is tough. As a Minnesota fan it hurt to see the other night, but I think it's the right call as far as foul/no foul.

Even after watching this on replay a dozen plus times I find it really difficult to argue either way. I can certainly see where the foul could have been argued to occur after the red light comes on (as pictured in the previous post). But I can also see where the argument could be made that the act of the foul (undercutting the player attempting to tip in the rebound) started before the game is over and would still be a shooting foul.

I think the only thing that's conclusive here is that I am glad I'm not the guys in stripes.

Its this part I would like the answer to, does the official have the ability to say the foul began before the red light, or is it strictly when his hand goes up.

I really think it should have been 1 for 1 or game over.  To make it a 2 shot foul you're saying the act of shooting began before the red light which it clearly did not unless the definition of act of shooting for a tip-in occurs earlier than touching the ball.

[almcguirejr]

Its this part I would like the answer to, does the official have the ability to say the foul began before the red light, or is it strictly when his hand goes up.

I really think it should have been 1 for 1 or game over.  To make it a 2 shot foul you're saying the act of shooting began before the red light which it clearly did not unless the definition of act of shooting for a tip-in occurs earlier than touching the ball.

[/b]

Agreed!

[AlwaysHope]

SFLZMAN asked the question:  Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the red light on the backboard has priority over the horn or the clock technically as far as official determining the end of the game. I feel like this was brought up in the last few years in a D1 game.

1) Isn't that true?

2) Was the red light on in the second photo above, when is after the tip-in attempt?  I am not sure I can see it.

[doc]

I'm admittedly a fan of the Scots, but I do think it was a foul. The Calvin player extends his arm to grab Harvey. I think that play gets called every time it's seen. As so often happens on a last second shot, the defender became a spectator and had to grab with an extended arm. You can see many of the players and coaches on the Alma bench jump up to protest right away. I thought it was a reasonable call, but could see it go either way. Just like the foul on Gamble's shot just prior to the Woodruff miss.

Some contact certainly occurs at some point prior to the horn. The degree to how egregious was and if it should have been called at all can be debated. What really grinds me is:

1. The game had not been called tightly all afternoon. Calvin was awarded 3 FTs all game and Alma was awarded 4 FTs prior to this play. Coaches on both sides had been calling for foul calls -- with lots more contact than on this play -- all game long. Fouls, for the entire game, were 9 for Alma and 10 for Calvin up to this point. The call was not consistent with the rest of the game.

2. The Scots were awarded a shooting foul when the rebounder had not even touched the ball before the horn. IF there was enough contact to award a foul I believe it would have had to be a 1-and-1. As sac points out, the referee who made the call did not even flinch at any contact before the horn. To me it was a classic case of the ref waiting to see that the shot was missed to award the foul. Unfortunately all relevant events occurred well past the horn at that point.

I completely agree with Slappy. This amount of contact was not called all game long, and to determine the outcome of the game in this manner is really poor officiating. This is a no call.
And lost in the controversy was the fact that Alma has some retched away jerseys. Wow, those things are a travesty—kind of like the love child of the late 90's Pistons jerseys and a flannel shirt.

[almcguirejr]

SFLZMAN asked the question:  Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the red light on the backboard has priority over the horn or the clock technically as far as official determining the end of the game. I feel like this was brought up in the last few years in a D1 game.

1) Isn't that true?

2) Was the red light on in the second photo above, when is after the tip-in attempt?  I am not sure I can see it.

You can see the red light is on on the left vertical edge of the backboard in the first image.  The ref had not moved at this point. (You can zoom in on the image)

[Jameswys]

kind of like the love child of the late 90's Pistons jerseys and a flannel shirt.

This is a disturbingly accurate description of those jerseys.

[KnightSlappy]

kind of like the love child of the late 90’s Pistons jerseys and a flannel shirt.

This is a disturbingly accurate description of those jerseys.

I was not offended by the Alma road uniforms. In fact, I quite enjoyed the tartan kilt motif thematically. The execution isn't perfect, but I'd grade them a solid enough B-
At the very least they are better than Calvin's road uniforms.

[bigboy32]

A couple final thoughts from me on the Alma-Calvin finish:

1. Objectively I believe it was a foul. One can get into all the subjective reasons it should or shouldn't have been, but that's simply colored by our biases.
2. In the last twenty seconds, there were possibly two other uncalled fouls. First on Kleiver's shot (judging by the defender's reaction) and then on Gamble's (clear in the video below)
https://vimeo.com/309919157

In the end this reminds me of something I tell my 5th grade team. There will be calls you disagree with, and great shots made by opponents...get over it. In the end you have to make the plays to win. Calvin will get their shot at revenge in a few weeks.

[realist]

Calvin had the ball, and a time out with 20 seconds left.  CAG made his shot with 14 seconds left.  If Calvin had taken more time off the clock the crazy ending would probably not occur.   Play for the last shot yourself, and make Alma foul.  Calvin was doing a great job on the boards so play the final seconds on your end of the floor.  There was no reason for CAG to rush the shot, and doing so really played to Alma's advantage.

[wiz]

Calvin had the ball, and a time out with 20 seconds left.  CAG made his shot with 14 seconds left.  If Calvin had taken more time off the clock the crazy ending would probably not occur.   Play for the last shot yourself, and make Alma foul.  Calvin was doing a great job on the boards so play the final seconds on your end of the floor.  There was no reason for CAG to rush the shot, and doing so really played to Alma's advantage.

Nothing wrong with the timing of Calvin's last shot.  Knights were down a point and needed to get the lead. Also needed time for a rebound if the shot failed and that was likely as Carlos missed the identical jumper from the other side just a couple minutes earlier.  Both teams scored very little in the last 7 minutes and no shot seemed like a sure thing.  Final seconds were well coached on both sides.  Entire controversy was caused by an incompetent official not understanding his role.

[HOPEful]

Since the topic of the day is MIAA officiating I'll mention what I saw today. It was poor day for officials around the league. While I don't think the officiating effected the outcome in this game I saw a lot of head scratching calls. It looked initially like they were going to let the guys just play, allowing minor to moderate contact. Then for a few possessions nothing was allowed, then it was loose again. They missed a big one in the second half on an out of bounds that went Trine's way but my bigger beef was the lack of consistency. When both teams can feel, with reason, that the calls are different at each end of the floor it makes for a lot of complaining.

Hope always lists the officials on their box scores but I can't seem to find them for this game. After reading your description, I really wanted to see where A.P was officiating on Saturday.

[Jameswys]

HOPEful, Trine didn't do the best job with game info in that game. They failed to report the attendance too, which is hard for me to estimate as the MTI is slightly larger than the friendly confines of Cutler. I know most of the Olivet games include officials and attendance, seeing both missing is quite sad.

[sac]

MIAA officials also rotate through the D2 GLIAC and NAIA WHAC leagues.  There are 2 games in the WHAC that don't list officials from Saturday.  My guess is Mr. Perez was at one of those.   Not sure how often they get a game day off but that's also possible.

We seem to have some new faces this year.

[sflzman]

Quick halftime thought from Alma:

The Scots are a completely different team with Kevin Gamble on/off the court. He’s been in foul trouble all night (has three right now). The lack of depth at the 5 position scares me.

Also, I don’t know which of the twins it is officiating here tonight, but whichever one it is really fancies his whistle tonight while the other two seem to be rather non-existent.

[sflzman]

Quick halftime thought from Alma:

The Scots are a completely different team with Kevin Gamble on/off the court. He’s been in foul trouble all night (has three right now). The lack of depth at the 5 position scares me.

Also, I don’t know which of the twins it is officiating here tonight, but whichever one it is really fancies his whistle tonight while the other two seem to be rather non-existent.

Funny how basketball works. After climbing back from being down as many as 7 in the second, the Scots fall on a put back tip in at the buzzer.

Alma had the ball with around 50 seconds left. Got what they wanted. Gamble isolated down low with an obvious mismatch. IMO he was blatantly held. Instead of the post entry Stevens turns the ball over. Albion comes down. Calls timeout with 11.8 seconds left. High iso was pretty well defended and the runner lipped out. Nobody in White rebounded, however, and Albion was able to get the crucial last touch to put the ball in the net.

Would really like to see the +/- with/without Gamble on the court. I’d be willing to bet that it is in the double digits. He just makes such a difference. When Alma’s starting five is out there you constantly are worrying about all five players on the offensive end. Maki and Hudson as guards off the bench can make some noise offensively. But at the 5, Rake just doesn’t really threaten you at all.

Weird to say this, but with how the MIAA usually ends up, Saturday's game almost feels must-win. This certainly is looking to be that it could again be “that year” that we end up with a 4 or 5 loss MIAA champion.