MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

Okay, sac, how about that...Spring Arbor wins the NAIA National Championship (Div II) in basketball.  Quite interesting that they and Cornerstone have each won national titles in bb in recent years.  With Ferris State winning last year, now all we need to do is get one of the MIAA teams to win it all again.  However, as has been said here by several, that will be a very tough task.  The situation (with recruiting among other factors) is not like it was back when Calvin won their two national titles and Hope losing twice in the final game.  Granted Hope's women's two national titles and Alma's women's one national are great accomplishments.

All that said, I have to go back to what one of the UW-Oshkosh players said in the D3.hoops article of them winning it this year.  A senior, he related that losing the title game last year was such a disheartening feeling such that it was the great motivation to not let that happen again this time (my paraphrase of his specific comment). Which makes me feel all the more worse for our fellow Hope bb players who lost the two national title games within 3 years.  Even with time "softening the sting." after all these years, that still has to be a slightly gut-wrenching memory.  But, such is life at times as we all know. Just getting there was a great accomplishment.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see who Olivet and Calvin finally choose for their next HCs.  Also, remember to keep Jay Smith in prayer for his battle and hopefully he will be able to continue as HC at Kalamazoo next season.

Grace University(Grand Rapids) beat Great Lakes Christian (Lansing) to win the NCCAA II title this year as well.

GLC and their coach is quite a story.  They really came out of nowhere this year.  Last year they celebrated a win over D3 Martin Luther like it was a national championship.   https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/sports/2019/03/05/great-lakes-christian-college-basketball-rich-westerlund-winless-nccaa-tournament/3065348002/

This year they're getting legit recruits to look at them, and commit.  Maybe Coach Westerlund is an outside candidate for Olivet.

[Grutte Dirk]

... I hope Calvin finds a homerun hire to put some pressure on Hope's program.

I have to wonder if there is any way to put more pressure on Hope College's mens basketball coach than there always is, no matter what.

That is true. Hope might be going through the same process as Olivet and Calvin are going through if we have another 10+ loss season and lose to your rival 3 times next year

Absolutely ridiculous!!!! He's 99-41 in 5 seasons (.707)

FWIW - GVW was 65-47 in his first 5 seasons (.580)

I'm saying there's loads of pressure on Hope's coaches even after an NCAA title.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Unreal how unrealistic some people are about the Calvin (and Hope) coaching positions especially when it comes to compensation. They are not as "great" as you all think they are. Yes, the teaching responsibility has been removed from "new" hires, but it also blows my mind that Calvin didn't remove the teaching responsibilities from his current coaches when it made that change. However, the compensation especially with the simple fact that there is no full-time assistants (as best I can still tell; that has been the case forever up until now) is not as good as you all think it is.

And quoting endowments as some sign that proves coaching salaries can be high is also misguided. Bryn Mawr (all women's school outside Philadelphia) has one of the highest endowments in the Centennial Conference (over a billion dollars if memory serves; no one can touch Johns Hopkins' numbers) and yet it has one of the worst performing departments not only in the conference, but in the country. Endowments do NOT translate to coaching salaries, athletic budgets, etc. Some endowments are limited to what they can be used for and some schools still don't want to spend money on athletics.

I have found Calvin to be all show and less substance. Yes, they have had successful programs and they clearly have spent money on facilities .. but the fact the men's job will finally have teaching responsibilities removed ONLY because Vande Streek decided to retire from coaching (and stay on as a teacher) is an indictment. The same only happened with the women's job when Ross was forced to choose which coaching job he wanted to keep while still teaching.

[Gregory Sager]

I have found Calvin to be all show and less substance. Yes, they have had successful programs and they clearly have spent money on facilities .. but the fact the men's job will finally have teaching responsibilities removed ONLY because Vande Streek decided to retire from coaching (and stay on as a teacher) is an indictment. The same only happened with the women's job when Ross was forced to choose which coaching job he wanted to keep while still teaching.

Calvin has 11 national titles (four in men's cross-country, three in women's volleyball, and two apiece in men's basketball and women's cross-country), which puts it well within the top five percent among D3 schools. And only 16 schools have won D3 national championships in a broader array of sports than Calvin's four. That's not simply "successful programs." That is substance.

Yeah, requiring head coaches to also carry out classroom teaching responsibilities is an antiquated and unproductive policy. But you can't argue with eleven Big Doorstops.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

To be fair ... the sports world has evolved a bit since Calvin has one a lot of those titles. Also, some sports require more than others.

I realize the 11 "doorstops" is impressive ... but evolution has made some of those more difficult in more recent years to acquire.

I think in the world of basketball ... the time constraints to recruit are more prevalent. If anything, Calvin seems to have lost some of their recruiting edge and I would argue it is because their coaches have to be tied down with campus "stuff" more than most coaching staffs.

[northb]

Pretty nice to have the bar set so high that winning the MIAA tournament, a playoff game, and losing in the playoffs on the road to a VERY good Augustana team is considered a down year

Exactly.

[Gregory Sager]

To be fair ... the sports world has evolved a bit since Calvin has one a lot of those titles.

Six of Calvin's seven Final Four appearances in women's volleyball -- including all three national championships -- have occurred in this decade. All four men's cross-country championships were won in the previous decade, along with one of the men's basketball championships, and the women's cross-country team has finished in the top four as recently as 2008.

Also, some sports require more than others.

No doubt. But the requirement is still the same for each school within that sport, so, comparatively, it isn't as though the substance of winning a national title in, let's say, men's cross-country is any different. (Women's sports are another matter, because you and I both know that not every school puts a high premium on winning in terms of its women's sports, which tends to leave competition more lopsided on the women's side in a paired sport such as basketball or soccer than it is on the men's side.)

I realize the 11 "doorstops" is impressive ... but evolution has made some of those more difficult in more recent years to acquire.

I definitely agree that that's true in terms of men's basketball. I'm not so sure that that's true in other sports. One thing that needs to be brought up here, vis-a-vis Calvin, is that that school has historically enjoyed a luxury that is practically unknown elsewhere in D3: a network of feeder high schools, most of them relatively close to the Calvin campus, that share Calvin's denomination and have extensive ties with the college in terms of alumni and personnel.

I think in the world of basketball ... the time constraints to recruit are more prevalent. If anything, Calvin seems to have lost some of their recruiting edge and I would argue it is because their coaches have to be tied down with campus "stuff" more than most coaching staffs.

That may be true to some extent, but it can be overstated as well. I've seen other coaches who have classroom responsibilities have a lot of success even in this current era; North Park's head men's soccer coach John Born, who is also an assistant professor in NPU's School of Business and Nonprofit Management, is an example. I always wonder whether Kevin VandeStreek's willingness to serve on this sport's national committee and then chair it got in his way in terms of his ability to go out and recruit. (I wonder the same thing about every national committee chair who is also a head coach rather than an AD.) And the high-school feeder system may not be as strong for Calvin as it used to be; someone who follows Calvin men's basketball more closely than I would have to answer that question. And then there's the larger problem that the entire MIAA has, not just Calvin, which is that the expansion of D2 and NAIA within the borders of the Great Lakes State has impinged upon the availability of good D3-level players in that state. It's instructive to look at the comments made here over the past couple of days about a Michigan school winning the NAIA-D2 national title this year, while two Michigan schools played for the NCCAA national title.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Does John Born have a full time assistant coach(s)?

[Gregory Sager]

Yes, he does, but I think that he's only been full-time for the past two or three years.

Even before the NPU roster ballooned up to its somewhat absurd current level (over 50 players on the roster last season), the NPU men's soccer program has always had a very large roster. It's often had up to 40 players or so, and I'd argue that it's not a luxury for any sport with that many players to have a second full-time coach.

[HOPEful]

I realize the 11 "doorstops" is impressive ... but evolution has made some of those more difficult in more recent years to acquire.

... One thing that needs to be brought up here, vis-a-vis Calvin, is that that school has historically enjoyed a luxury that is practically unknown elsewhere in D3: a network of feeder high schools, most of them relatively close to the Calvin campus, that share Calvin's denomination and have extensive ties with the college in terms of alumni and personnel....

I think in the world of basketball ... the time constraints to recruit are more prevalent. If anything, Calvin seems to have lost some of their recruiting edge and I would argue it is because their coaches have to be tied down with campus "stuff" more than most coaching staffs.

... And then there's the larger problem that the entire MIAA has, not just Calvin, which is that the expansion of D2 and NAIA within the borders of the Great Lakes State has impinged upon the availability of good D3-level players in that state. It's instructive to look at the comments made here over the past couple of days about a Michigan school winning the NAIA-D2 national title this year, while two Michigan schools played for the NCCAA national title.

Right on the nose, Mr. Sager.

To both points, I have brought up previously how differently the past ten years would have looked at Calvin had Kyle Steigenga and Sam VanderSluis chosen to attend Calvin over Cornerstone. For those not in the know, Steigenga is now the state of Michigan's collegiate points leader, regardless of division or association. They both graduated from Holland Christian, the mother of all CRC "feeder" schools and had they graduated in 1989, I'd bet the farm they would have both spent their collegiate years wearing maroon and gold. But the variables are much more complex than just financial or recruiting.  They went to a school that could offer them subsidized education in the form of athletic scholarship. They went to a very upgraded campus that is arguably more aesthetically pleasing than Calvin's, on the same road, on the "better" side of town. And they grew up at a time, where their parents supported their decision to go to a formerly Baptist school over the CRC school. I know several individuals that did not have that right, they were going to Calvin... discussion over. I'm not sure there was any amount of convincing that KVS could have done to land either player. Calvin, and Hope for that matter, need to get more creative in how they can lure players in today's climate. From what he's said, Hope's new president intends to do this by building up endowment with the firm intent on decreasing enrollment. Easier said than done, mind you, but it's clear that Hope has positioned themselves to lose recruits based solely on financial considerations. You can be the best recruiter in the world, at the end of the day, if school A = 30,000 a year, and school B = 15,000 a year, it's getting harder and harder to still choose school A.

[wiz]

...Holland Christian, the mother of all CRC "feeder" schools...

How did HCS earn that title?

[DrDutchman]

Steigenga liked Hope College... a lot. Didn't like the coach 🤗

[Hope1993]

Steginga would have more than likely ended up at hope outside of the aforementioned not liking  the hope coach. But I think he would have rather played next to Dante his AAU teammate. Plus hopes style fit steginga better. There are many players hope could have had of it weren't for d2 offering athletic scholarships and for the last minute d1 university's stealing some of the recruits with last minute offers.

[almcguirejr]

Unreal how unrealistic some people are about the Calvin (and Hope) coaching positions especially when it comes to compensation. They are not as "great" as you all think they are. Yes, the teaching responsibility has been removed from "new" hires, but it also blows my mind that Calvin didn't remove the teaching responsibilities from his current coaches when it made that change. However, the compensation especially with the simple fact that there is no full-time assistants (as best I can still tell; that has been the case forever up until now) is not as good as you all think it is.

And quoting endowments as some sign that proves coaching salaries can be high is also misguided. Bryn Mawr (all women's school outside Philadelphia) has one of the highest endowments in the Centennial Conference (over a billion dollars if memory serves; no one can touch Johns Hopkins' numbers) and yet it has one of the worst performing departments not only in the conference, but in the country. Endowments do NOT translate to coaching salaries, athletic budgets, etc. Some endowments are limited to what they can be used for and some schools still don't want to spend money on athletics.

I have found Calvin to be all show and less substance. Yes, they have had successful programs and they clearly have spent money on facilities .. but the fact the men's job will finally have teaching responsibilities removed ONLY because Vande Streek decided to retire from coaching (and stay on as a teacher) is an indictment. The same only happened with the women's job when Ross was forced to choose which coaching job he wanted to keep while still teaching.

This is one of the best posts I've read.  The support of the Calvin Athletic Department of the basketball program has been lacking.  If Calvin is going to get a proven college coach they are going to have to increase the financial support of the basketball program.  I think some of the quotes by AD Jim Timmer in this Calvin Chimes article, are an indictment of his leadership.

https://calvinchimes.org/2019/02/22/fans-absent-at-calvin-basketball-games/

[HoopsCoach]

Any news on the Calvin and Olivet searches?

And interesting takes on how people assume or perceive players feel about this coach or that, who would have gone where, etc.  I'd say unless you're one who played for a coach (or been the parent of a player) you can't assume what you see on the surface - good, bad, or otherwise - to be true. Things roll a lot deeper than the surface for sure.

Re: Stegs - he was actually as likely to be a preferred walk-on at MSU as he was to go to Hope or Calvin (that was the order). His choice worked out just fine!